Hello. I've been thinking of something-there are multiple reasons for a PC to go off on an adventure: a goal, divine influence/prophecy, wanderlust, or finding a new life. But there's one that I think can make an excellent "excuse" (so to speak) of character development-depression. Not the medical kind, but more along the lines of grief.
Here are a few examples:
-A dwarf barbarian, who leaves to hunt a giant who's been tormenting his kin, returns to find them all dead-from the giants ambushing them. He overcomes with some grief for thinking, "If only I was there to help."
-A human paladin was training a child to be his apprentice; she had promised the kid's parents he would be safe. However, during the night, a burglar murdered the kid. The paladin is filled with remorse, thinking she was behind the child's death-for if she hadn't taken him in, he may have been alive.
Now, I'm not saying that a character needs to be in a constant "Woe is me" kind of attitude-far from it. I think it could add a layer to the character's personality, and give them an obstacle that they need to overcome.
Am I the only one who thinks that using grief/depression/remorse (within consideration) could work on a PC?
not at all brah, i have a few characters who have similar reasons.
one character i have was a paladin who adventures because he lost someone special to him. that grief literally effects his every decision, his personality. Grief, remorse, they are great pc adventure starters.
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Pretty fantastic character motivations. However this is something that should be left purely up to roleplay, don't try to create mechanics for it.
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If you want grief, remorse or loss to be a motivating factor then go ahead. They can be powerful, but depression is distinct and different.
I would advise against using the word "depression". It's an issue that affects a *lot* of people, to the extent that one of your gaming group or someone in their immediately family is fairly likely to have had it. Portraying any mental or physical illness without (a ton of) sensitivity and understanding is a way to alienate people.
Also, in terms of roleplaying/adventuring depression doesn't make a huge amount of sense. Loss of motivation is very common in people suffering from it, as is a degree of social withdrawal, low energy levels and et cetera . Meeting up with a group of strangers and going on quest, while not impossible, would be very unlikely.
Pretty fantastic character motivations. However this is something that should be left purely up to roleplay, don't try to create mechanics for it.
Oh right. At first, I thought that it could work with mechanics, but...then I decided that was a bit overkill.
I was thinking this as it gave me a reason why my inquisitor of Shelyn would become an adventurer. Or at the very least WHY he decided to hunt down those that would ruin the teachings of his goddess.
Heck, this thread could be used as a way for some people to explain how they used depression/grief/remorse with their PCs.
Character turned into a plague spreading vampire after dying. At first he intended to kill himself out of despair, but he decided that he'd rather go out with a bang. So, he would always be the first hand raised when an especially dangerous job came up. Run up and meet foes head on, taunt the bigger creatures. To his allies and others, it looked like breavery. To him, if he was going to die, he was going to die awesome and would take any chance for that to happen given.
That is until an NPC friend that he owed a favor to, used that favor to ask him to stop the death wish stuff. He begrudgingly accepted, deciding to focus on fixing his "condition".
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I think you'd have to make sure it's going to add to the story of the character rather than just "be there".
Usually it would manifest in other situations.
Using your examples, your barbarian might find himself in an encounter where a village needs some protection. He can promise to protect this village using his story as a backdrop as to why he won't abandon them. His "penance".
The paladin's one is more complex - that might initially manifest as anger towards someone who doesn't really deserve it, before her paladin ways would hopefully get the better of her, preventing the new victim's murder.
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Please don't confuse depression with grief.
First things first mate.
There's Depression, depression, and grief.
Depression with the big D is medical. As a member of that club myself, I could talk for pages about it. However, you stated pretty clearly that this is not what you are referring to. Moving on.
Depression with the little d is melancholy. Problem with using melancholy as a motivation is that...well...it's not really motivating. It's just...glumness. Yeah, it can be an obstacle to overcome, but it doesn't really have much to play off of. Really, the best use of melancholy I can think of as a character hook is adventuring to stave it away, in a manner similar to Golarion's gnomes and the Bleaching.
What you described as with your examples is grief. And it's a bit complex. That said, adventuring as a coping mechanism for grief is a well used concept. Characters atoning for sins of the past, characters trying to make up for lost time, characters trying to make up for past weakness. It's really actually quite well used.
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One of the issues with big D Depression is that it robs you of your desire to act. And PCs need to act, instigate and take charge.
You can do a melancholy character like Marvin the Paranoid Android, but then you'd have to have someone else pushing you forward and making you become an active character. I agree that grief is more in line with what you are looking to do.
Hmm
Ah, sorry about the confusion. I still end up catching myself confusing depression (both the medical and the melancholy types) with grief.
I recently discovered that mental trauma, like many compelling problems in stories, is really only relevant at low levels because at higher levels there is a spell for that. Meet Joyful Rapture.
Joyful Rapture
School conjuration (healing) [emotion]; Level bard 5, cleric/oracle 6, sorcerer/wizard 7
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
EFFECT
Range 60 ft.
Area all allies and opponents within a 60-ft.-radius burst centered on you
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw no; Spell Resistance yes
DESCRIPTION
Your inspired words overwhelm others with transcendental bliss. All allies within the area of effect are freed from any harmful emotion effects. The spell also cures 1d4 points of Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma damage (your choice) to all allies in the area.
The lack of duration or conditions for this spell actually makes it pretty bonkers. By RAW, this would free you from "harmful emotional effects" such as grief, depression, paranoia, self-loathing, and more. And the lack of duration means the effect would be scrubbed from your brain.
I'm not sure whether this is wonderful or horrifying, but I would probably nerf that spell a lot before letting it be used at my table. (Not curing ability damage, mind. That part is fine.)
Not really an overpowered spell. If anything I think the spell level for it is too high.
Nah. "effect" implies pretty clearly that it only deals with debuffs, curses, spells, special attacks, and whatever else from outside/magic. I don't see a problem. But it IS fun to hit barbarians with. =)
Take it from a random stranger on the internet. If you want to roleplay someone with the capital D "Depression," you want to make them the kind of person who wants to see other people happy. Robin Williams said:
"I think the saddest people always try their hardest to make other people happy because they know what its like to feel absolutely worthless, and they don't want anyone else to feel like that."
Why would it be fun on barbarians? Rage isn't "harmful".
While in rage, a barbarian gains a +4 morale bonus to her Strength and Constitution, as well as a +2 morale bonus on Will saves. In addition, she takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase to Constitution grants the barbarian 2 hit points per Hit Dice, but these disappear when the rage ends and are not lost first like temporary hit points. While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration.
The armor class penalty is not an emotional penalty. It is untyped. The only emotion-dependent abilities are the stat bonuses and the will save bonus.
Rage itself is an emotion effect. The spell does not clarify morale bonuses—only emotion effects that have negative consequences. That said, it probably isn't RAI, so who cares?
If you want grief, remorse or loss to be a motivating factor then go ahead. They can be powerful, but depression is distinct and different.
I would advise against using the word "depression". It's an issue that affects a *lot* of people, to the extent that one of your gaming group or someone in their immediately family is fairly likely to have had it. Portraying any mental or physical illness without (a ton of) sensitivity and understanding is a way to alienate people.
Also, in terms of roleplaying/adventuring depression doesn't make a huge amount of sense. Loss of motivation is very common in people suffering from it, as is a degree of social withdrawal, low energy levels and et cetera . Meeting up with a group of strangers and going on quest, while not impossible, would be very unlikely.
Then again, "adventurer" is basically a step up on the professional rung from "homeless vagrant". A soldier or mercenary might become unmotivated enough to stoop to the more dangerous, less ambitious work of dungeon delving, though I wouldn't say depression is their "motivation" in doing so except in that it has progressed to the point that it has become impossible for them to continue with their higher-stakes jobs. It's more just a narrowing of options.
After all, a soldier or guard who makes mistakes can cause the deaths of many. An adventurer who makes mistakes can only get herself killed, at least in theory, making it easier to get involved in (just muddle into a basement, kill some rats, use the gold to buy food and move on). But I'm just speculating as someone with a fairly weak understanding of depression. If I'm totally off-base, I apologize.
I think it would be very interesting to play someone who's fallen to the work of a common adventurer simply because they can no longer muster the motivation to do anything else. In so doing, they end up inadvertently acquiring a support group (the rest of the party) and playing a crucial role in saving the world, or whatever the campaign's about. That would be a cool character to explore.
Not, I think, great for your standard Pathfinder group. Maybe better material for a novel, in fact.
Although I suppose if you wanted to use a level 5-7 spell to give a +2 to AC, I wouldn't really care. You can do that with a level 1 spell.
Nah. "effect" implies pretty clearly that it only deals with debuffs, curses, spells, special attacks, and whatever else from outside/magic. I don't see a problem. But it IS fun to hit barbarians with. =)
I agree that is RAI, and that's a perfectly reasonable way to rule it. But by RAW it the effects aren't specifically tied to spells, or induced effects with the [emotion] descriptor, or anything like that.
In the right context, "aggression against a well armed group of adventurers leading to self-destruction" could fall under the label of a harmful emotional effect, which is probably the biggest combat usage of the exploit. But outside of combat, being able to run around and cure anxiety, depression, grief, jealousy, many forms of harmful desires, bigotry... You could reshape society through enough applications of this spell, and turn it into one big big hippie commune.
Again, this is clearly not what was intended by the writers of the spell. But it would work by RAW and is really nuts out of combat.