| CloudCobra |
Hi guys, I'm working on a combination build using an Unchained Rogue to create a non-magical alchemist.
For the secondary class I naturally chose Alchemist, but I will only get the secondary features at levels 3 and 7.
Here's what I have thrown together so far:
This will be a human, with a very high Craft-alchemy skill. :P
Race Builder:
Static Bonus feat (+2 RP) - Prodigy +2 Craft Alchemy
Negative Energy Affinity (-1 RP)
Slow Speed (-1 RP)
Skill Bonus (+2 RP) +2 Craft-Alchemy
Delicious (-1 RP)
Shattered Soul (-1 RP)
Feats:
Skill Focus (Craft-Alchemy) [Level 1]
Weapon Finesse, sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding [Level 1]
Human Adaptation [Human bonus]
Evasion, Combat Trick (Throw Anything) [Level 2]
Craft (alchemy) +3 comp. bonus, Danger Sense +1, Finesse Training (light weapon), sneak attack +2d6 [Level 3]
Craft (alchemy) +4 comp. bonus, Debilitating Injury, Rogue Talent, uncanny dodge, +1 INT [Level 4]
Master Craftsman (alchemy), Craft (alch.) +5, Signature Skill (Craft-alchemy), sneak attack +3d6 [Level 5]
Craft (alch.) +6, Danger Sense +2, Combat Trick (Point Blank Shot) [Level 6]
Bombs, Craft +7, Sneak attack +4d6 [Level 7]
Craft +8, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Combat Trick (Precise Shot), INT +1 [Level 8]
Create Wondrous Creature, Danger Sense +3, sneak attack +5d6 [Level 9]
Signature Skill (Craft-Leather), Craft Device [Level 10]
Now here's where I'm stuck. I would like to qualify for the Promethean Disciple discovery. How could I get that without having to resort to taking Alchemist or Investigator levels?
I was thinking Thuvian Alchemist.
To meet those requirements I could have a Possessed weapon and, if necessary, get a spell-like ability or change in race through an Infernal Contract, or have the devil use Imbue with Spell-like ability or Spellcasting Contract (Mother of Flies, p.67), or even gain a template through Bestow Curse. THAT'S NOT AT ISSUE!
Maybe even Craft Device could potentially allow to meet the requirement...
Was there a FAQ that says that a +1 arcane spellcasting class PRC actually makes it equivalent to obtaining Alchemist 6 equivalent?
Otherwise, is there another way, perhaps?
Thanks for your time, guys. I appreciate it.
| Paladin of Baha-who? |
Without GM fiat, there's no way to take Craft Construct as a rogue. It requires a caster level. (Of course, there was no way to take Craft Construct as an alchemist, either, before that discovery came out.) The Underground Chemist Rogue archetype lets you take certain Alchemist discoveries in place of advanced rogue talents. A GM might allow you to take Promethean Disciple as one of those even though it doesn't appear on the list of allowed discoveries.
Spell-like abilities do not meet prerequisites of 'able to cast arcane spells' or 'caster level X' or etc.
| CloudCobra |
Item Creation Feats: Does having a caster level from a spell-like ability meet the caster level prerequisite for selecting an item creation feat? No.
Spell-Like Abilities, Casting, and Prerequisites: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements?Only if the pre-requisite calls out the name of a spell explicitly. For instance, the Dimensional Agility feat (Ultimate Combat) has "ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door" as a prerequisite; a barghest has dimension door as a spell-like ability, so the barghest meets the "able to cast dimension door prerequisite for that feat. However, the barghest's dimension door would not meet requirements such as "Ability to cast 4th level spells" or "Ability to cast arcane spells".
Edit 7/12/13: The design team is aware that the above answer means that certain races can gain access to some spellcaster prestige classes earlier than the default minimum (character level 6). Given that prestige classes are usually a sub-optimal character choice (especially for spellcasters), the design team is allowing this FAQ ruling for prestige classes. If there is in-play evidence that this ruling is creating characters that are too powerful, the design team may revisit whether or not to allow spell-like abilities to count for prestige class requirements.
The wording of the requirements for a prestige class is important. You cannot meet a requirement of "Able to cast 2nd level spells" with any spell-like ability, since the requirement specifies spells. But if the requirement is "Able to cast Daylight", then a racial spell-like ability does qualify you. That's how Aasimar and Tiefling characters were able to get into certain PRCs by like Level 2. So, yeah, you got me there, Paladin.
| CloudCobra |
However, maybe there is a way around that...
Infernal Contracts
Entering into an infernal contract is an unforgivably evil act, which will switch your alignment to Lawful Evil. If you do you are prevented from the spell Resurrection, but the ability to attain powers long before obtaining the higher levels are certain. Unfortunately, there aren't really any specific rules anymore, leaving much up to your GM to decide....
Here are some things that you can get:
General Boons (any devil) [Book of the Damned I, pp.38-39]:
1 Wish spell as in the Core Book , or
permanent change of creature type (outsider, undead, etc.), or
application of template, or
At will Spell-like ability (2nd level or lower), or
Spell-like ability (3rd level or lower) 1/day, or
Natural armor bonus increase (up to +4), or
+2 profane bonus to all Intelligence-based skills, or
1 feat.
{Further possibilities left to the GM}
Imp:
Servitude as familiar (Book of the Damned I, pp.38)
Helps broker contracts with more powerful devils (Hell Unleashed, p.12)
Hamatula:
Money and treasures from the Vaults of Hell (mundane/alchemical/magic items, maybe a Minor Artifact) (Book of the Damned I, p.38)
Phistophilus:
Each contract devil specializes in a different type of infernal contract. Some phistophiluses sell lesser devils into mortal slavery. Other contract devils specialize in granting evil wishes to mortals. Those who sign such contracts receive three wishes, per the spell wish, all of which must be used within 24 hours of signing the contract. While a mortal can set the intentions of the wishes, it's up to the contract devil to twist imprecisely worded requests (Hell Unleashed, p.29).
When we look at the general boons that can be provided the question immediately arises just how can they pull that one off without repercussions? The Greater Effects rule of the Wish spell by itself would cause a lot of backlash. The answer simply goes back to the fact that Asmodeus is the God of Contracts, and, as the other half of the First created the power of meaning (Princes of Darkness, pp.2-3), actually has powers of creation at his behest. Therefore he can impose his own concept of order on reality through his contracts. The only other two forms of devils whose Wish spells seem to be bound to contracts are the Pit Fiends and the Phistophilus, which means they also must go through Asmodeus in one way or another. So, common sense tells us that we have to get ahold of an Asmodean Monograph and study the one thousand pages of the Archfiend's doctrines and as many supplemental texts as possible. Basically, you're effectively replicating American jurisprudence with all of its legal legerdemain that makes attorneys so despised. :P
Possible way to acquire 2nd-level arcane spells:
Asmodeus is willing to deal with any god or entity as long as he believes that being will uphold its end of the bargain (Mother of Flies, p.67), which means that he could provide spell-like abilities of spells that are tied to specific deities. The other way he could get around it is through the use of the spell Spellcasting Contract, because there can always be some schmuck from another deity who made a bargain with Asmodeus (it would require a Cleric of Asmodeus as an intermediary, or somebody with a really high Use Magic Device skill, but it is doable). Also, religious scholars speculate that paladins of Asmodeus are actually granted powers by another deity (typically Iomedae or Sarenrae) through some complex arrangement with the Prince of Darkness (Mother of Flies, p.66), which means the same could apply here if the contract was carefully worded. Spellcasting Contract works like the spell Imbue Spell Ability, so you could “cast” a 2nd-level arcane spell RAI, but probably not RAW. That would be worth debating with the game designers.
The problem comes down to the fact that these contracts come with a heavy price - your character's soul. The simplest method of breaking a diabolical agreement is to destroy both copies of the contract – one is kept by the mortal upon signing, whereas the other is kept with the devil. If the damned mortal is somehow able to get his hands on the devil's copy, he can free himself from the contract (Hell Unleashed, p.29) Okay, but we have no source that says that you get to keep the bargains you have struck when you manage to break the contract. The idea is to weasel your way out of it through technicalities.
For instance, mortals who consider themselves unfairly condemned to Baator might protest the terms of their contracts only after death. At that point, they must be knowledgeable enough to demand adjudication by making a successful DC 20 Knowledge (the planes) or Knowledge (religion) check to reveal this essential fact. Only the following two defenses against condemnation are considered valid: 1) The mortal was coerced or magically compelled into signing an infernal contract; 2) the devil offering a contract did not provide the promised benefits (Fiendish Codex II, p.25). The only other way is to find another mortal to take the signee's place in Hell. In this case, the original signor retains all the boons granted, while the substitute pays the entirety of the price. However, contract devils only allow such substitutions if the replacement soul is more valuable, or in exchange for a service that is more valuable than the difference is worth between the souls. In general, devils value the souls of righteous, pious, and innocent over those of the corrupt. (Hell Unleashed, p. 29).
Okay, so that gives us some wriggle room. The quickest way to accomplish that is either being charmed or dominated into signing an infernal contract. The other way would be to offer a higher level NPC a Wish spell to take your place in the contract, while telling him what he needs to do to get out of it himself.
Another way of doing it:
Given that the Book of the Damned I says that further possibilities are left to the GM, that allows us some lee-way. Logically speaking we could invoke Fiendish Codex II, p.24 because Pathfinder was designed to incorporate D&D 3.5. By doing this we gain the ability to widen our scope. If you are a stickler for rules you can ask for a 4-point boon to get the Magical Training feat from Forgotten Realms Player's Guide to Faerun (a 4-point boon) {it gives us the ability to cast 3 cantrips either as a wizard or a sorcerer), a Level 1 spell slot (a 3-point boon), and a Level 2 spell slot (another 3-point boon). Granted, we can't seem to do Pacts Insidious anymore, but we can always ask for a Ring of Three Wishes as part of the contract, and then wish that our contract included those terms. That would be taking that devil for a loop. :P
The Prestige class only requires the ability, not that you actually use it.
Another idea:
The Minor Alchemy feat from Rogue Glory gives us one 1st-level formula from the Alchemist formulae list with which we may prepare an alchemist’s extract once per day from memory.
I have not been able to find another feat that would get us to Level 2 extracts...so we would be half-way there doing it this way.
| CloudCobra |
We know that Master Craftsman makes the rank in Craft substitute for the caster level. At the same time Master Craftsman allows us access to Craft Magic Arms & Armor, as well as Craft Wondrous Item. CHECK!
So, after Master Craftsman (Alchemy) we take Craft Wondrous Item. We use the Alchemy skill to grow crystals, i.e ioun stones. But we need the Orange Prism ioun stones for which we require caster level 12, so that's 12 ranks in Craft (alchemy). CHECK!
Can a character benefit from multiple nightsticks (Libris Mortis 78) or multiple orange prism ioun stones (DMG 260)?Neither of these items provides extra bonuses in multiples. The rules for stacking (Rules Compendium 21) do not allow untyped bonuses to stack if they come from the same source.
That is a bummer! So, since we can't have 10 orange prism ioun stones we have to make a single ioun stone. The basic Orange Prism costs 30,000 gp. Since Ioun Stones have no space limitation, they cost double what an item that does take up a slot costs, based on the Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values. Thus a +1 bonus to Caster Level that isn’t an Ioun Stone should cost 15,000 gp. Costs for bonuses are generally based on the bonus’s value squared, times some number of gold pieces. Since the Orange Prism is a +1 bonus, 1 squared = 1, so that number is 15,000 gp. So a +10 bonus would be (10 squared x 15,000 gp) x 2 = 3,000,000 gp
Holy crap, that's a whole lot of money but we can have a Caster Level of 10 to qualify for those feats. It would take us roughly 8 years to make by ourselves (or we have to sell our soul for it) but it's doable. CHECK!
Page 46 of Seekers of Secrets tells us that Ioun Stones can be implanted, and although it's a lengthy preparation process we could surgically insert that thing and keep it on our sternum so nobody can see it.
Brew Fleshcrafting Poison (Second Darkness - Endless Night, p.63) specifically says that if the fleshcrafting is an original creation, use the nearest equivalent monster that possesses a similar body part or ability. So, if we can't find a decent monster in the four Bestiaries (or the Tome of Horrors from 3rd edition) we just GROW OUR OWN using the Craft Wondrous Creature feat first.
Gaining the Bomb ability
If we build ourselves an Alchemical Golem (see Bestiary 2, p.135) for 18,000 and then modify it into Construct Armor (see Ultimate Magic, p.114) for an additional 35,000 gp we now have a construct that treats Bombs as an extraordinary ability, rather than a supernatural ability. If we then slap the Robot sub-type on it (see Inner Sea Bestiary, p.42) we now have a construct that is animated by technology rather than magic.
So, what have we learned? When in doubt throw money at the situation. :P
| CloudCobra |
Only if the GM doesn't provide time or loot to appropriate the funds. :P
Another thing that got me thinking was the Rituals of Mortification (see Pathfinder - Chronicle of the Righteous, p.46).
Granted they are devotions and acts of piety used to specifically gain the attention of empyreal lords so that they grant celestial boons and otherwordly powers to mortals.
The nice thing is that these rituals can be researched like a divine spell, so you don't necessarily have to be part of an established good-aligned religion to be imparted the knowledge. Also, you can expand on these rituals by creating and designing your own. That alone would allow us to gain many more abilities, whether extraordinary, spell-like or supernatural. Thus, the research should cost at least 1,000 gp per spell level equivalent and requires both the Spellcraft skill and the Knowledge (religion) skill. For each week of research, you make separate Knowledge and Spellcraft checks against a DC of 20 plus twice the level of the spell being researched.
The problem is that it would require GM fiat to use this way to even temporarily acquire the ability to create Level 2 extracts, whether by worshiping Brigh, Bharnarol, or other deity of crafting.
But if one of the examples can provide the Channel Energy class feature then alchemy/extracts shouldn't be out of the question, I would think...