Just Pick Up a Bow


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Scarab Sages

Blackvial wrote:
Blackvial wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
- Cavaliers can... Well... Yeah... They are screwed.
they could work with their dm to get a flying mount
and if i remember correctly there are a set of horseshoes that can give a mount flight

There are. They could also take Extra Item Slot for any number of other flying items.

Silver Crusade

Blackvial wrote:
Blackvial wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
- Cavaliers can... Well... Yeah... They are screwed.
they could work with their dm to get a flying mount
and if i remember correctly there are a set of horseshoes that can give a mount flight

FYI, those don't work on tiefling hooves. I have a friend who wanted to do that, but we looked it up, and it doesn't work.


Fromper wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

I am a "pick up a bow" person, but I would never say it makes the fight easy. I will say that even doing 5 to 6 points of damage instead of the 30+ per hit that you are used to will help end the encounter a lot faster than doing nothing.

I am not saying you specifically do this, but I have seen games where players were like "I don't have a ranged weapon, and doing (insert low number) won't matter so I just won't do anything".

Exactly. I play Pathfinder Society, so there are various random people at the table each time. I can't even count the number of times we've had a melee guy who didn't even have a ranged weapon at all. They might not finish things off quickly like they would in battle, but at least it lets them help a little against flying foes. Given that you can get a sling and 10 bullets for 1 silver piece, there's really no excuse for anyone not to have a ranged weapon.

Once I watched a magus (in tier 7-11) spend the entire combat yelling at the flying monsters to come down and fight him. He had all his slots filled with meta-magiced shocking grasp and didn't think to have Fly prepped or on a scroll...


Remember, this thread isn't about whether a character should carry a ranged weapon. A sling is free, weightless, and can use debris on the ground as ammo. Almost everyone should have one on their character sheet. This thread is about whether it's better to invest in flying or a ranged weapon (that you don't specialize in).

...but as long as we're sharing anecdotes, my players wanted to play high level once so we did and one of them made a weapon master fighter with no ranged weapons at all. Specifically, an encounter at sea in which he could not swim, wasn't willing to use his 3/day fly, had no ranged weapons, and mostly just waved his sword at them. I think he wasn't really prepared for high levels.


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haha that reminds me of a High level scenario.

Three of the four members of the party: Melee paladin, TWF melee ranger, TWF melee rogue. It was a dragon slaying campaign.

*Unfortunately* the DM also didn't know high level play, so the dragons would just charge in and sit there doing breath weapons while the three of them flanked it and just slaughtered the thing.

Saw this in a PFS scenario, I was a player so I don't know the written tactics. But we had a flying enemy with a ranged attack. After two rounds of it full attacking with it's ranged attack it flew down and started to melee with us, and quickly died.

Players that only have encountered this kind of play will never think that they need a ranged weapon. Everything comes into melee with them soon enough.

Silver Crusade

On the other hand, I bought a composite longbow for my barbarian's raging strength bonus (before adaptable was an option), and still carried potions of Fly. I once flew after a dragon as it was running away and killed it in melee with my claws (Beast Totem) before it could escape. Of course, it was only running away because it was already heavily damaged, but it still makes for an awesome story.


wraithstrike wrote:


I am a "pick up a bow" person, but I would never say it makes the fight easy. I will say that even doing 5 to 6 points of damage instead of the 30+ per hit that you are used to will help end the encounter a lot faster than doing nothing.

I am not saying you specifically do this, but I have seen games where players were like "I don't have a ranged weapon, and doing (insert low number) won't matter so I just won't do anything".

If you're doing 5 to 6 and there's an actual archer doing 30+ then you may as well not trouble yourself because no, you don't matter. He's dropping everything in two or three rounds and you don't even do a third of enemy HP when you crit.

If you're doing 5 to 6 when you should be doing 30+ and no one is doing better it's time to roll up a new character because you're going to get wiped unless the flight is just a decoration on a monster that has to close to melee to actually deal damage. If you survive against a foe that can actually exploit its flight it'll be because the wizard or cleric landed a save or lose that makes your damage completely irrelevant.

Weak fliers in the bestiary are no excuse. Fly comes in potions. Take the NPC codex CR 4 fighter. Take away the questionably useful potions and downgrade her melee weapon to non-masterwork and she can afford a potion of fly and some change. She's about 8% down from bestiary par HP for CR 4, has the AC of a "standard" CR 7, the attack of a CR 5, and damage about halfway between the high levels for CR 4 and 5. And she's completely immune to melee opponents and short range spells in an outdoor fight. She has enough touch AC to stand a reasonable chance of living through a 4th level sorcerer's entire load of scorching rays. A level 4 party without real archers is probably going to take losses at a level where death is still permanent. This is literally just taking the first proper archer fighter in the NPC codex and shuffling the gear to fit a potion of fly.

Against something like a harpy you don't use a bow. If you fail your save you don't use any weapon at all. If you make it you just ready actions because it has no ranged attacks. If they lack flyby they're in range to full attack next round. If they have it they take a readied action and then an AoO on the way out in exchange for one standard action attack of their own.

The only time "get a bow" is better than sticking to melee is when the unspeakably broken synergy between ranged combat or spellcasting and flight is in play. At that point nonspecialized ranged attacks are like a screen door on an airlock. Unless you're something like a paladin with a big damage booster you can apply to anything.

Dark Archive

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As mentioned before the "needs Precise Shot" shtick is kind of a moot point when we're talking about a backup weapon for when a monster is out of your melee range. And if we're talking about the occasional situation where something like a wild shaped druid or a summoned monster is in melee with a flying thing? Well, maybe it's their time to shine.

But seriously, the way I see it Pathfinder can be a team game. Some classes depend upon magical support from their caster allies (or, in a pinch, consumables MADE by casters) to deal with special situations like flying, invisible, or underwater enemies. If the Bow thing isn't doing it for you, make friends with a buff wizard. He'll love to turn his 3rd level spell into the awesome numbers you can put out in melee.


There is absolutely no way a melee fighter is out DPMing a ranged fighter unless there is only 1 big slow enemy. Most melee lose out on a huge deal of their DPM because of the need to spend an entire turn moving and then full attacking - whereas a ranged just sits still and unloads. Not to mention ranged fighters can get TWF without the need of buying a second weapon, and they can mostly ignore DR with Cluster Shots.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

If you're a strength build character, tie a rope to your arrow. Then when you hit with your arrow attack use the Pull combat maneuvre to drag the flying monster down to Earth.

Buy a net and ready an action, most flyers are melee foes if you toss a net over a winged enemY BOOM no more flying.

If the enemy uses a fly spell, then get your Mage ally to hit it with a targeted dispel, or cast a fly spell on you.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

If I'm a fighter, I have a longbow and a cold iron mornginstar as backups, almost without variation. I don't expect to do much damage with the longbow, but I expect to do some damage, and I can do lots of things besides just damage, like interacting casters, forcing Fly checks, and aggro-ing enemies who ready actions.

A cold iron morningstar costs a handful of gp, can be used one or two-handed, does two damage types, and with the application of some oil or a low level spell, can defeat the DR of a lich.


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

A melee-focused, Str-based character who doesn't spend a few gp on javelins (or chakrams; same cost, same range, more damage, and less weight) as a ranged option at 1st level deserves any difficulties they may have, IMO. If they have proficiency in all martial weapons, then they should spend the prep-time winding amenta around their javelins before adventuring for the extra range: same range as a sling, more damage, and only need one hand (so they can hold their two-handed/double weapon in the other).

Once they gain a few levels, investing in a composite short bow or composite longbow with a Str bonus to damage, along with an assortment of arrows (cold iron with silver weapon blanch as the normal option, some blunt versions, and a handful of adamantine) for dealing with the most common DRs, is relatively inexpensive; they could also spend 750 gp on a potion of fly for when they really need it. Especially by 6th level, when they can fire multiple arrows; even without investing any feats in Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot.

As many have stated, the melee-focused character doesn't have to be competitive with/as good as a ranged-focused character; they only have to be relevant.


Althuogh archer at low levels run into problems as well. There are solutions where a character can run into problems but if you are GMing a home game don't purposefully try to spam them agianst one player as that is a risk factor for interplayer tension.

You don't even need flying to make having no ranged weapons be annoying.

A few halfling fighter 1 with low profile and combat reflexes with good archers behind them that have point blank shot precise shot and rapid shot could end up being really nasty. As taking lots of enemy ranged fire attacks of opporunities.


Covent wrote:
Spring Heeled Jack

I just wanted you to know I caught your Oblivion reference and enjoyed it. Good day to you, sir.


Went back and googled it. Now I feel silly.

Scarab Sages

Fromper wrote:
Given that you can get a sling and 10 bullets for 1 silver piece, there's really no excuse for anyone not to have a ranged weapon.

Unless the PCs have been imprisoned and stripped of all their gear.*

In which case, you're screwed at your primary functions as well.
And the point of the scenario is to see how the players cope with adversity; a 'Kobayishi Maru' test of sorts.

*And even then, you could hide a sling and several bullets up your arse.
Easier than a compound bow, anyway.

Liberty's Edge

Ace Trip feat... shoot flying creatures out of the sky. Then any melee only characters can go to town.


CBDunkerson wrote:
Ace Trip feat... shoot flying creatures out of the sky. Then any melee only characters can go to town.

What's this ace trip feat? From a book not yet on the SRD? Does it bypass the usual 'flying creatures are immune to trip' problem?

Liberty's Edge

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Blakmane wrote:
CBDunkerson wrote:
Ace Trip feat... shoot flying creatures out of the sky. Then any melee only characters can go to town.
What's this ace trip feat? From a book not yet on the SRD? Does it bypass the usual 'flying creatures are immune to trip' problem?

It's in Weapon Master's Handbook, and yes it allows you to make ranged trip attacks on flying creatures.


Just to let everyone know I am not abandoning thIs thread. Just had to catch some shut eye. I am reworking the level 5 numbers with DR done correctly and am about half way done with level 10.

See you "soon"! Please look forward to it!


At level 1: grippli with Jumper, Glider. He gets a Climb speed of 20. Move up a wall/tree/tall PC and then jump up and attack or throw a net.


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Ridgar Redhammer was my Society grapple-beast Brutal Pugilist Barbarian.
I had a sling for distance fighting at low levels.
At mid to high levels, I had potions (and allies) of Fly.

It's not about having great DPR at ranged. If it was about DPR at range, I wouldn't be a grapple-beast.
It's about doing something for those levels where you can't do much else, then finding a solution for those levels where you can.

In Jade Regent, our party was VERY melee heavy; we're talking a martial artist, a dual wield ninja, a wakizashi specialist fighter(myself), a naginata focused samurai, and a cleric of Pharasma (our sorcerer moved away).
There was a particularly nasty flying fight at one point were we hadn't been able to shop for ages, so consumables and reliable ranged options were not available to us.
Only the martial artist had a way of engaging in melee (a story specific item).
In the end, the cleric summoned a giant wasp which I mounted so I could strike in melee, the ninja ran around throwing things at the flying foe(because every hit counts), while the samurai pouted because she couldn't use her naginata.
Guess who contributed more, the ninja or the samurai?

You "pick up a bow" to do something.
It's not about being the star, it's about being a team player.


Snorter wrote:
Fromper wrote:
Given that you can get a sling and 10 bullets for 1 silver piece, there's really no excuse for anyone not to have a ranged weapon.

Unless the PCs have been imprisoned and stripped of all their gear.*

In which case, you're screwed at your primary functions as well.
And the point of the scenario is to see how the players cope with adversity; a 'Kobayishi Maru' test of sorts.

*And even then, you could hide a sling and several bullets up your arse.
Easier than a compound bow, anyway.

I would think if you're imprisoned and have to fight a flying creature the fighter would be vastly better than a wizard. The one has no spell book and the fighter can simply grapple the flying creature.

Unless the prison you're talking about has 25 high ceilings because it was made for giants. In which case no one is imprisoned because the cage is easy to get through.

Regardless you can still pick up a rock and throw it.


Edited due to DR still wrong. Be back "Soon".


So running into a small calculation problem. Can anyone explain to me how to apply Clustered Shots to the DPR calculation?

Currently I am doing:

(Hit Chance * Damage) + (Hit Chance * Damage * Crit mod * Crit chance) = DPR

For DR I am doing (Hit Chance * (Damage-DR)) + (Hit Chance * (Damage-DR) * Crit mod * Crit chance) = DPR with DR

How do I account for the fact that once clustered shots become accessible you only apply DR once?


How do you calculate the inability to make decent flight checks while wearing plate and lacking ranks in the skill?

Sovereign Court

Covent wrote:
For DR I am doing (Hit Chance * (Damage-DR)) + (Hit Chance * (Damage-DR) * Crit mod * Crit chance) = DPR with DR

Unless I'm misunderstanding - that's entirely wrong. (Admittedly - doing DPR with damage reduction involved is a hassle.)

For example - 1d8+7 vs DR 10 - the average damage on a hit IS NOT 1.65!

You have to figure out each roll of the die vs DR - and with potential crits mixed in BEFORE damage reduction.

For 1d8+7 vs DR 10, you get (0+0+0+1+2+3+4+5)/8 = 1.875. That's without a crit though. With DR you need to calculate them entirely separately.

With a bow - 5% chance of x3 damage - or 3d8+21. In this case - since every possible roll is more than the DR, you can simplify it down to 3d8+11, or 24.5 damage.

So - 1.875*95% + 24.5*5% = 3.00625 average damage on a hit - nearly double the answer found with your formula.

Once you have that - then you multiply it by whatever the chance to hit is.

(That is the reason why most threads which talk about DPR generally only mention damage reduction modifiers in a vague sort of way. :P)


I would assume that starting at the level where the arcane caster can cast fly everyone in the party spends skill points in fly, or at level 9-10 where you can afford winged boots the same.

I would further say that for a Mithral breastplate has an ACP of -1.

The fighters in my examples above would, with normal non-mithral breastplate, therefore have fly of 3(Ranks) + 2-4 (Dex) + 2(Fly spell bonus) - 3(ACP) = 4-6 at level 5 and at level 6, 6(Ranks) + 2-4(Dex) + 2 (Fly Spell Bonus)= 10-12.

It will just get better from there.

As for full plate drop those numbers by 2 and honestly the only people I have seen wear full plate are dwarves as usually mechanically the movement penalty is not worth it.

Even if we assume full plate by level 7 where fly becomes mandatory even a fighter can have a decent check. (9-11 for example.)

Sovereign Court

Covent wrote:
How do I account for the fact that once clustered shots become accessible you only apply DR once?

Since it only makes the whole thing more complicated - I'll answer that with one word...

"Vaguely" :P


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Covent wrote:
For DR I am doing (Hit Chance * (Damage-DR)) + (Hit Chance * (Damage-DR) * Crit mod * Crit chance) = DPR with DR

Unless I'm misunderstanding - that's entirely wrong. (Admittedly - doing DPR with damage reduction involved is a hassle.)

For example - 1d8+7 vs DR 10 - the average damage on a hit IS NOT 1.65! (the answer with your formula)

You have to figure out each roll of the die vs DR - and with potential crits mixed in BEFORE damage reduction.

For 1d8+7 vs DR 10, you get (0+0+0+1+2+3+4+5)/8 = 1.875. That's without a crit though. With DR you need to calculate them entirely separately.

With a bow - 5% chance of x3 damage - or 3d8+21. In this case - since every possible roll is more than the DR, you can simplify it down to 3d8+11, or 24.5 damage.

So - 1.875*95% + 24.5*5% = 3.00625 average damage on a hit - nearly double the answer found with your formula.

Once you have that - then you multiply it by whatever the chance to hit is.

(That is the reason why most threads which talk about DPR generally only mention damage reduction modifiers in a vague sort of way. :P)

Ah ty. Humm back to the drawing board for me then. So how would I do clustered shots then?


Now with correct DR usage!

One thing of note this level is that this is usually where you start seeing DR5/Magic/Damage type/Something regularly.

Two Handed Hank Lvl 5:

Human Fighter 5

Str: 16 + 2 Racial
Dex: 13 + 1 Level
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Chr: 10

Feats
Human: Power Attack
1: Iron Will
Fighter 1: Furious Focus
Fighter 2: Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
3: Point Blank Shot
Fighter 4: Weapon Specialization (Greatsword)
5: Precise Shot

Gear: +1 Breastplate, +1 Greatsword, 4 strength masterwork composite longbow, + 2 cloak of resistance, sundries ~8k/10.5K

Weapon Training Heavy Blades +1

To Hit with Greatsword: +12
Damage with Greatsword: 2d6 + 16

Melee DPR VS AC 18: (0.75*23)+(0.75*23*1*0.1)= 17.25 + 1.725 = 18.975

So Melee DPR with DR5 that cannot be penetrated would be 15.225. Against the average 55 hp enemies at this level that would mean 4 rounds/characters of effort to kill one at CR enemy.

Without the DR or if it is DR magic this goes to 3 rounds/characters of effort.

To Hit with Longbow No PBS: +8
Damage with Longbow No PBS: 1d8 + 4

Ranged DPR VS AC 18: (0.55*8.5)+(0.55*8.5*2*0.05)= 4.675 + 0.4675 = 5.1425

So Ranged DPR with DR5 that cannot be penetrated would be 2.3925. Against the average 55 hp enemies at this level that would mean 23 rounds/characters of effort to kill one at CR enemy.

Without the DR this goes to 11 rounds/characters of effort.

To Hit with Longbow with PBS: +9
Damage with Longbow with PBS: 1d8 + 5

Ranged DPR VS AC 18: (0.60*9.5)+(0.60*9.5*2*0.05)= 5.7 + 0.57 = 6.27

So Ranged DPR with DR5 that cannot be penetrated would be 3.27. Against the average 55 hp enemies at this level that would mean 17 rounds/characters of effort to kill one at CR enemy.

Without the DR this goes to 9 rounds/characters of effort.

Damage loss no DR, no PBS is 18.975-5.1425=13.8325dpr ~73% loss
Damage loss no DR, with PBS is 18.975-6.27=12.705dpr ~67% loss
Damage loss with DR, no PBS is 15.225-2.395=12.83dpr ~84% loss
Damage loss with DR, with PBS is 15.225-3.27=11.955dpr ~79% loss
Damage loss for Melle through DR is 18.975-15.225=3.75dpr ~20% loss
Damage loss for Ranged through DR no PBS is 5.1425-2.395=2.7475dpr ~54% loss
Damage loss for Ranged through DR with PBS is 6.27-3.27=3dpr ~48% loss

*Greatest possible damage loss if Melee punches DR but Ranged does not and no PBS is 18.975-2.395=16.58dpr ~88%*

Spring Heeled Jack Lvl 5:

Human Fighter 5

Str: 14 + 2 Racial
Dex: 15 + 1 Level
Con: 13
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Chr: 10

Gear: +1 Breastplate, +1 Kukri x 2, 3 strength masterwork composite longbow, +1 cloak of resistance, sundries ~7k/10.5K

Feats
Human: Two Weapon Fighting
1: Power Attack
Fighter: Double Slice
Fighter 2: Weapon Focus (Kukri)
3: Iron Will
Fighter 4: Weapon Specialization (Kukri)
5: Point Blank Shot

Weapon Training Light Blades +1

To Hit with Kukri: +7
Damage with Kukri: 1d4 + 11

Melee DPR VS AC 18: ((0.50*13.5)+(0.50*13.5*1*0.15)) X 2= (6.75 + 1.0125) X 2 = (7.7625) X 2 = 15.525

So Melee DPR with DR5 that cannot be penetrated would be 12.55. Against the average 55 hp enemies at this level that would mean 5 rounds/characters of effort to kill one at CR enemy.

Without the DR or if it is DR magic this goes to 4 rounds/characters of effort.

To Hit with Longbow no PBS: +9
Damage with Longbow no PBS: 1d8 + 3

Ranged DPR VS AC 18: (0.60*7.5)+(0.60*7.5*2*0.05)= 4.5 + 0.45 = 4.95

So Ranged DPR with DR that cannot be penetrated would be 2.02125. Against the average 55 hp enemies at this level that would mean 28 rounds/characters of effort to kill one at CR enemy.

Without the DR this goes to 12 rounds/characters of effort.

To Hit with Longbow with PBS: +10
Damage with Longbow with PBS: 1d8 + 4

Ranged DPR VS AC 18: (0.65*8.5)+(0.65*8.5*2*0.05)= 5.525 + 0.5525 = 6.0775

So Ranged DPR with DR that cannot be penetrated would be 2.8275. Against the average 55 hp enemies at this level that would mean 20 rounds/characters of effort to kill one at CR enemy.

Without the DR this goes to 10 rounds/characters of effort.

Damage loss no DR, no PBS is 15.525-4.95=10.575dpr ~68% loss
Damage loss no DR, with PBS is 15.525-6.0775=9.4475dpr ~61% loss
Damage loss with DR, no PBS is 12.55-2.0215=10.5285dpr ~84% loss
Damage loss with DR, with PBS is 12.55-2.8275=9.7225dpr ~78% loss
Damage loss for Melle through DR is 15.525-12.55=2.975dpr ~19% loss
Damage loss for Ranged through DR no PBS is 4.95-2.0215=2.9285dpr ~59% loss
Damage loss for Ranged through DR with PBS is 6.0775-2.8275=3.25dpr ~54% loss

*Greatest possible damage loss if Melee punches DR but Ranged does not and no PBS is 15.525-2.0215=13.5035dpr ~87%*

Ranged Roger Lvl 5:

Human Fighter 5

Str: 14
Dex: 16 + 2 Racial + 1 Level
Con: 10
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Chr: 10

Feats
Human: Point Blank Shot
1: Precise shot
Fighter 1: Rapid Shot
Fighter 2: Deadly Aim
3: Power Attack
Fighter 4: Weapon Focus (Longbow)
5: Weapon Specialization (Longbow)

Weapon Training Ranged +1

Gear: +1 Breastplate, +1 2 strength Composite longbow, +2 Cloak of resistance, Masterwork Greatsword, Sundries ~8K/10.5K

To Hit with Greatsword: +6
Damage with Greatsword: 2d6 + 9

Melee DPR VS AC 18: (0.45*16)+(0.45*16*1*0.1)= (7.2 + 0.72) = 7.92 dpr

So Melee DPR with DR that cannot be penetrated would be 5.895. Against the average 55 hp enemies at this level that would mean 10 rounds/characters of effort to kill one at CR enemy.

Without the DR this goes to 7 rounds/characters of effort.

To Hit with Longbow No PBS: +8
Damage with Longbow No PBS: 1d8 +8

Ranged DPR VS AC 18: ((0.55*12.5)+(0.55*12.5*2*0.05)) x 2= (6.875 + 0.6875) x 2 = (7.5625) x 2 = 15.125

So Ranged DPR with DR that cannot be penetrated would be 9.625. Against the average 55 hp enemies at this level that would mean 6 rounds/characters of effort to kill one at CR enemy.

Without the DR or if it is DR magic this goes to 4 rounds/characters of effort.

To Hit with Longbow with PBS : +9
Damage with Longbow with PBS : 1d8 + 9

Ranged DPR VS AC 12: ((0.60*13.5)+(0.60*13.5*2*0.05)) x 2= (8.1 + 0.81) x 2 = (8.91) x 2 = 17.82

So Ranged DPR with DR that cannot be penetrated would be 11.82. Against the average 55 hp enemies at this level that would mean 5 rounds/characters of effort to kill one at CR enemy.

Without the DR or if it is DR magic this goes to 4 rounds/characters of effort.

Damage loss no DR, no PBS is 15.125-7.92=7.205dpr ~48% loss
Damage loss no DR, with PBS is 17.82-7.92=9.9dpr ~56% loss
Damage loss with DR, no PBS is 9.625-5.895=3.73dpr ~39% loss
Damage loss with DR, with PBS is 11.82-5.895=5.925dpr ~50% loss
Damage loss for Melle through DR is 7.92-5.895=2.025dpr ~26% loss
Damage loss for Ranged through DR no PBS is 15.125-9.625=5.5dpr ~37% loss
Damage loss for Ranged through DR with PBS is 17.82-11.82=6dpr ~34% loss

*Greatest possible damage loss if Ranged punches DR but Melee does not and with PBS is 17.82-5.895=11.925dpr ~67%*

Blasty McBlasterson, Lord of Blasters, King of Blastonia:

Human Evoker Wizard

Str: 10
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 16 + 2 Racial
Wis: 10
Chr: 10

Gear: Liquid Ice as a Focus

Ray of Frost DPR VS AC 14 for touch!: (0.55*5) +(0.55* 5*1*0.05)= 2.75 + 0.1375= 2.8875

Need 20 rounds to down an at CR opponent. Any elemental resistance completely shuts down ray of frost unless the caster has a way of shifting elements.


Conclusions at level 5:

1.) In terms of DPR 2-Hand>Dual wield~=Ranged without PBS. With PBS 2-Hand>Ranged>Dual Wield.
2.) Both 2-Hand and Dual Wield lose most of their DPR when switching to a ranged weapon.
3.) DR hurts ranged much more than 2-hand and dual wield.
4.) DR effectively shuts down use of a ranged weapon for non-ranged based characters and seriously hurts ranged characters.
5.) Things like weapon blanches, oils, blunt arrows and potions of fly become a must to preserve DPR.
6.) It is always worth the action economy for non-ranged to chug a fly potion and put on an oil to punch DR rather than using a bow.
7.) Ranged is hurt much less by switching to Melee than Melee is hurt switching to Ranged.
8.) If a creature has impenetrable DR a non-ranged character will do about as much damage as a evoker wizard spamming unbuffed ray of frost against a non elementally resistant target.
9.) Since Melee takes 9+ rounds to kill an at CR enemy, the only reason to use a ranged weapon is if there is no other option. Usually I would expect a party reduced to this to TPK if no assistance was available.
10.) Flying should still be an oddity at this level but may occur and if it does I would expect the Melee finding themselves without the ability to bypass DR with their non-magic bow.
11.) Any buff spells should be spent getting the Melee into Melee rather than buffing their weak attempts at ranged if possible.
12.) With the currently available WBL all Melee should carry at least one method of flight, such as a potion of "Fly" just in case.

Next...

Level 10!


Hunt cover.


Sekkan wrote:
Hunt cover.

?


Don't stand there and try to shoot at them. Get under some cover and make them come to you.


I guess pick up a sling is better than pick up a bow.

I'd rather waste 6 seconds doing 5 damage than 2 minutes b!~~+ing as to why I can't do anything. On that basis alone... pick up ANYTHING.


Cavall wrote:

I guess pick up a sling is better than pick up a bow.

I'd rather waste 6 seconds doing 5 damage than 2 minutes b!*&~ing as to why I can't do anything. On that basis alone... pick up ANYTHING.

The point of this thread is that it is my hypothesis that you should only "pick up something" rather than chugging a fly potion or using some other means of flight if all other options have failed and even then if that is all your party can do be prepared to burn a lot of healing/recovery resources or to TPK.

Basically Melee should provide some means of flight, like a potion of fly by level 5 and have a reliable means of flight, like winged boots or aasimar wings by level 10.

Bows as a "backup" weapon do not cut the mustard. Doing cantrip damage is not acceptable...

I will do the level 10 math soon, still trying to figure out clustered shots.


I think it really comes down to the style of the GM. If the GM only has encounters with level appropriate challenges and does not push the party to the limit then you don’t need to worry about a bow. What I mean by level appropriate challenges is not using a creature that is too tough, but just the opposite. I often throw in lower level encounters for the sake of realism. These are usually minor random skirmishes or to get the party thinking it will be a cake walk. Sometimes throwing large numbers of lower level creatures actually make it interesting.

I also like to push the party so there are plenty of tough encounters. In many cases by the end of the adventure half the party is down and most of the resources have been used. In my games being well prepared is not just a good idea it is a necessity. But no matter how well you prepare there will be thing you did not count on. Combining these two tactics makes the party have to really think about what they are using. If you use up the potion of flying to take care of the weak threat you may not have it vs the tougher threat.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:

I think it really comes down to the style of the GM. If the GM only has encounters with level appropriate challenges and does not push the party to the limit then you don’t need to worry about a bow. What I mean by level appropriate challenges is not using a creature that is too tough, but just the opposite. I often throw in lower level encounters for the sake of realism. These are usually minor random skirmishes or to get the party thinking it will be a cake walk. Sometimes throwing large numbers of lower level creatures actually make it interesting.

I also like to push the party so there are plenty of tough encounters. In many cases by the end of the adventure half the party is down and most of the resources have been used. In my games being well prepared is not just a good idea it is a necessity. But no matter how well you prepare there will be thing you did not count on. Combining these two tactics makes the party have to really think about what they are using. If you use up the potion of flying to take care of the weak threat you may not have it vs the tougher threat.

This I understand and agree with. If you as a character without in class access to fly have prepared, but have used up your consumables/daily access to Fly then falling back to do something > nothing/whinging.

I also would point out that simply getting things out of bags for casters/Ranged such as scrolls or specialized gear like a net is generally a quicker way to end fights then getting out a bow.

Basically it is never ok to use a bow as your first fall back and in most cases it would be better to do almost anything else even if you are just raising AC via aid another or some such.

But we will see if this is true at level 10 soon.


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Never say never! I have purposely throw low level threats at the party that they can handle without pulling out the big guns. Then latter in the adventure had encounters where that item would have made a big difference. The key is using the appropriate tool for the job at hand. After the first couple of times this happened, the party started to use better tactics. It’s now gotten to the point where they have become very good at conserving their resources and often end up with more to use at the capstone of the adventure.


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Even with a Fly spell (either from a friendly caster, potion or winged boots), you aren't always going to be able to close into melee. Just in Bestiary there are all the Air Elementals and Dragons that fly faster than you can using that spell. None of them fly faster than an arrow.

Cold Iron arrows are cheap at 1st level, blanches are affordable by 3rd level. At higher levels you've got other ways to potentially deal with DR. All of your calculations are figuring that there is DR (which is much more rare on flying creatures) and that it is a type that can not be negated.

Yes, the melee person is going to hit less and do less damage than they would if they could get a full attack. In my experience, you aren't likely to get a full attack against a flying opponent.

Carry a ranged weapon or be ready to feel useless. Consider taking Vital Strike once you qualify for the cases where you have to take a readied action in order to hit the creature. That feats works with either melee or ranged combat. Do your best to not be useless.


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BretI wrote:
Carry a ranged weapon or be ready to feel useless.

Carry a ranged weapon and feel almost completely useless, or don't and feel completely useless.


Fire a couple tanglefoot arrows from the bow. Your target just might fail the save and come crashing to earth.


I think better comparisons could be made at levels like 6/11 or 7/12 when characters gain iterative attacks and meaningful new feats.

Potions of Fly can help out in situations besides airborne combat and might be well worth buying if you don't have allied spellcasters who are willing to get you airborne (or in case they run low on spells). Honestly I've often seen (and sometimes had) problems in fights where the opponents weren't actually flying but were merely standing on top of a ledge, cliff, ship, etc.

Carrying admantine, cold iron, and silver arrows to beat DR seems like a good idea. Looking for ways to boost your ranged damage might help a bit too. A bow with an enchantment like flaming or shocking isn't really that expensive, and they tend to show up in treasures anyhow. I think a Deliquescent Glove would also add +1d6 acid damage to your arrows, and it would help your melee damage too.

Sometimes I'm playing a PC who just doesn't feel like using a bow though. Does anybody know if the Steadfast Grapple can be used to haul in creatures? If so that might be a fun way to get flying stuff into melee. In one game we recently used a Fly spell on a Dire Crocodile Fast Zombie and had it snag a dragon for us.

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Covent wrote:

The point of this thread is that it is my hypothesis that you should only "pick up something" rather than chugging a fly potion or using some other means of flight if all other options have failed and even then if that is all your party can do be prepared to burn a lot of healing/recovery resources or to TPK.

Basically Melee should provide some means of flight, like a potion of fly by level 5 and have a reliable means of flight, like winged boots or aasimar wings by level 10.

Bows as a "backup" weapon do not cut the mustard. Doing cantrip damage is not acceptable...

I will do the level 10 math soon, still trying to figure out clustered shots.

At higher levels, I agree. Potions of fly are totally worth the money. Every melee type should have one buy level 5, and carry 3 or 4 at all times by level 7 or 8. It's the brand new level 1 PCs without a sling, complaining that they can't help against flyers in a level 1 adventure that bug me.

Also, about melee types having trouble with fly checks, that really shouldn't be an issue most of the time. You only need to make fly checks in specific circumstances, like sharp turns, or going straight up. They'll drop 10 feet when they take damage, so they'll constantly have to fly back to the enemy, but just being able to get up there and give chase should be good enough. As others have said, flying critters frequently have lower HP/AC and other stats to compensate for the advantage of being able to fly.


Fromper wrote:


At higher levels, I agree. Potions of fly are totally worth the money. Every melee type should have one buy level 5, and carry 3 or 4 at all times by level 7 or 8. It's the brand new level 1 PCs without a sling, complaining that they can't help against flyers in a level 1 adventure that bug me.

Also, about melee types having trouble with fly checks, that really shouldn't be an issue most of the time. You only need to make fly checks in specific circumstances, like sharp turns, or going straight up. They'll drop 10 feet when they take damage, so they'll constantly have to fly back to the enemy, but just being able to get up there and give chase should be good enough. As others have said, flying critters frequently have lower HP/AC and other stats to compensate for the advantage of being able to fly.

This I can without equivocation agree with.

A level one character should have a ranged option in the same way they should have a swarm option.

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Fromper wrote:
Covent wrote:

The point of this thread is that it is my hypothesis that you should only "pick up something" rather than chugging a fly potion or using some other means of flight if all other options have failed and even then if that is all your party can do be prepared to burn a lot of healing/recovery resources or to TPK.

Basically Melee should provide some means of flight, like a potion of fly by level 5 and have a reliable means of flight, like winged boots or aasimar wings by level 10.

Bows as a "backup" weapon do not cut the mustard. Doing cantrip damage is not acceptable...

I will do the level 10 math soon, still trying to figure out clustered shots.

At higher levels, I agree. Potions of fly are totally worth the money. Every melee type should have one buy level 5, and carry 3 or 4 at all times by level 7 or 8. It's the brand new level 1 PCs without a sling, complaining that they can't help against flyers in a level 1 adventure that bug me.

Also, about melee types having trouble with fly checks, that really shouldn't be an issue most of the time. You only need to make fly checks in specific circumstances, like sharp turns, or going straight up. They'll drop 10 feet when they take damage, so they'll constantly have to fly back to the enemy, but just being able to get up there and give chase should be good enough. As others have said, flying critters frequently have lower HP/AC and other stats to compensate for the advantage of being able to fly.

Of course, any intelligent flier will know this, and stay directly above the flying melee guys, laughing as the guy with 12 Dex and heavy armor tries to make a DC 20 Fly check to go straight up. Even if he does, the flier just has to full attack him, and wait for the fighter to drop back down when he fails his DC 15 Fly check to hover at the start of his next turn.


RainyDayNinja wrote:
Fromper wrote:
Covent wrote:

The point of this thread is that it is my hypothesis that you should only "pick up something" rather than chugging a fly potion or using some other means of flight if all other options have failed and even then if that is all your party can do be prepared to burn a lot of healing/recovery resources or to TPK.

Basically Melee should provide some means of flight, like a potion of fly by level 5 and have a reliable means of flight, like winged boots or aasimar wings by level 10.

Bows as a "backup" weapon do not cut the mustard. Doing cantrip damage is not acceptable...

I will do the level 10 math soon, still trying to figure out clustered shots.

At higher levels, I agree. Potions of fly are totally worth the money. Every melee type should have one buy level 5, and carry 3 or 4 at all times by level 7 or 8. It's the brand new level 1 PCs without a sling, complaining that they can't help against flyers in a level 1 adventure that bug me.

Also, about melee types having trouble with fly checks, that really shouldn't be an issue most of the time. You only need to make fly checks in specific circumstances, like sharp turns, or going straight up. They'll drop 10 feet when they take damage, so they'll constantly have to fly back to the enemy, but just being able to get up there and give chase should be good enough. As others have said, flying critters frequently have lower HP/AC and other stats to compensate for the advantage of being able to fly.

Of course, any intelligent flier will know this, and stay directly above the flying melee guys, laughing as the guy with 12 Dex and heavy armor tries to make a DC 20 Fly check to go straight up. Even if he does, the flier just has to full attack him, and wait for the fighter to drop back down when he fails his DC 15 Fly check to hover at the start of his next turn.

As I posted above most people at level 6 will need a 3-5 to make the DC 15 and a 8-10 to make the DC20.

It gets easier from there.

Fly DC's are not hard even in armor.

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Covent wrote:

As I posted above most people at level 6 will need a 3-5 to make the DC 15 and a 8-10 to make the DC20.

It gets easier from there.

Fly DC's are not hard even in armor.

Your numbers assume a character in heavy armor, but with moderate to high Dex, and maximum ranks in Fly even though he can't even begin to take those ranks until he has a renewable source of flight, and he only has 2 skills/level to play catch-up. So for a martial character who devotes half of his skills and point buy to being good at flying, yeah the fly checks will work half the time. Yay?


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Is this our world of entitlement now? Players expect to build a melee-specialist with a sense that they're entitled to have every encounter lay down and die before their awesome melee might?

Fie!

YOU build the character, YOU build a backup plan for when an encounter is not ideal for you, YOU prepare yourself, and YOU expect that there will be some encounters that will not be perfect for your specialization.

In return, the GM probably should have plenty of encounters that DO fall easy victim to your specialization so you can play what you built and enjoy your moments in the spotlight.

But in no way should a player feel like the GM is obligated to cater every encounter to your specialty. You're definitely not entitled to that.

And when it happens that you get an encounter that isn't well-suited to your specialty, then you use your backup plan and you EXPECT it won't match your specialized DPR because it obviously won't and it shouldn't - it's just a backup plan.


Covent wrote:

As I posted above most people at level 6 will need a 3-5 to make the DC 15 and a 8-10 to make the DC20.

It gets easier from there.

Fly DC's are not hard even in armor.

How is he putting skill ranks into fly if he is using a potion?

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