|
I have a character in a PBP Gameday 4 game, and I'm also GMing a game at Aethercon this weekend. After seeing the chronicles, I've decided that I probably want the chronicles to go to the character in the PBP game.
My reading of the rules leads me to believe the following, which I would like to check with the community (or John Compton if he's seeing this).
1. I can't apply GM Credit to a character being played in a pbp.
2. I CAN choose not to apply GM credit for GMing the scenarios this weekend. I can then choose to run the same scenarios after I finish the pbp game, and give the credit to the character for the second round of GMing.
In Pathfinder Society Organized Play, we reward GMs for volunteering their time to run events. Starting with Version 2.2 of this document (and not retroactive to any previous scenarios that were run), any GM who runs a scenario gets full credit for that scenario applied to one of her own characters. “Full credit” means the GM gets the following: 1 XP for the scenario, 100% of the Max Gold for the subtier most appropriate to the GM’s PC, and 2 PP (or, for a slow advancement track character, 1/2 XP, 1 PP, and 50% of the Max Gold for the subtier most appropriate to the GM’s PC).
The GM may select any special boons bestowed by a Chronicle sheet, such as free magical treasure, regional boons, or future bonus die rolls. The GM does not get a Downtime. Additionally, there is limited replay allowed depending on the number of GM stars earned (see page 20). The subtier for which a GM’s character receives credit depends on the character’s level. If a GM with a 1st-level rogue runs a Tier 1–5 scenario using Subtier 1–2, she takes a Subtier 1–2 Chronicle sheet for her 1st-level rogue. If she instead runs a Tier 1–5 scenario using Subtier 4–5, she still takes a Subtier 1–2 Chronicle sheet, as her PC clearly falls within the lower subtier.
If the GM with a low-level character runs any higher tier scenarios that don’t include a subtier for her 1st-level rogue, she takes the lowest subtier Chronicle sheet from that scenario and holds it for her PC. Then, once her PC achieves the appropriate level for that Chronicle sheet, it is immediately applied. For example, if a GM with a 1st-level rogue runs a Tier 5–9 scenario, she would take a Subtier 5–6 Chronicle sheet (the lowest subtier for that tier) for running the scenario and set it aside. Once her rogue reaches 5th level, she can immediately apply the Chronicle sheet to her character. This means that GMs’ characters can potentially level up in bursts.
A GM who receives a Chronicle sheet that indicates her character is between subtiers must always receive the Out-of- Subtier gold value and access to items and boons of the subtier the adventure was played at.
A GM may assign credit for running an adventure in any of the same ways a player can, and must follow the same rules as a player when applying credit to a character. When you choose to take a Chronicle sheet for GM credit, you must decide which of your characters receives the Chronicle sheet when you fill out the tracking sheet for that table. You must apply Chronicle sheets in the order they are received.
|
I don't see why you couldn't hold the GM credit until the PC finishes the PbP. I've done that with 2 PCs already, and a couple posters in the thread Paz linked assumed you could as well. It's the most reasonable answer, since some PbPs can take longer than you initially thought they would.
You shouldn't be punished for GMing. Just set aside the Chronicle until it can be applied. If that PC dies during the PbP, you lose the GM credit as well, just as if you were holding a Tier 5-7 Chronicle and your Level 3 PC died.
|
I don't see why you couldn't hold the GM credit until the PC finishes the PbP. I've done that with 2 PCs already, and a couple posters in the thread Paz linked assumed you could as well. It's the most reasonable answer, since some PbPs can take longer than you initially thought they would.
You shouldn't be punished for GMing. Just set aside the Chronicle until it can be applied. If that PC dies during the PbP, you lose the GM credit as well, just as if you were holding a Tier 5-7 Chronicle and your Level 3 PC died.
I agree, that would be a nice thing to do. But I don't believe it's allowed by the rules as they stand, as interpreted by the majority in that thread.
I would like this to be clarified one way or the other in the next PFS Guide, or sooner if possible.
|
I personally see no problem with holding GM credits on a locked character. You aren't playing that character which would be a problem so it doesn't cause the same conflict. That seems more like applying a credit for an out of tier sheet (whether due to GMing or playing a pregen) and applying it when applicable. Obviously you wouldn't benefit during the scenario from the extra gold or XP, but at the end you could. My 2cp.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In the OP's situation, this would be considered a "barrier to GMing". A barrier is something that gives pause to a potential GM to step up and run a game. Put enough barriers in place, and you're out a GM.
If the answer is "you have to GM this twice to receive any credit", then the response developed over time will be to hold off on GMing until that character is free to receive credit.
The secondary response that develops is a desire to abstain from PbP. Imagine that you're set to GM something in a week, and you want credit assigned to PC#6. A PbP gets advertised that's perfect for PC#6 as well. Since the GM is already signed up to run, they must choose to find another time to play that scenario (which may or may not be possible sooner rather than later).
Given those possible outcomes, I do not believe it is reasonable to tell people they can't hold Chronicles. As it stands now, people are already doing it anyways.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I have never seen an official ruling on this, but I have seen it come up many times. The general ruling from the PbP community and the frequent PbP GMs is that it is perfectly fine to hold GM credit and apply it to the charter once his current PbP scenario is complete. While it is technically a grey area that has not been officially addressed it is very common practice and has not to my knowledge been abused. I'll even admit to doing it myself a few times.
|
My understanding was exactly the same as Preston's, and when I read his response, I thought 'Yep, that's it; no need to reply to this thread.'
But I think Nefreet's reasoning is sound, and I find myself hoping that he is correct in how this works. It certainly makes sense to not penalize a player for either GMing or playing in PbP.
|
|
Related question: I am currently GMing a PbP game, and I hope to apply that to Character X. I assume that I can still play Character X in other games while that is going on, either F2F or PbP. Is that correct?
I have not had the time to fully go over the new guide to PFS. So unless there is something in there that states a planned GM credit locks a character I would say it would be ok. The general idea is that GM credits are ment to be flexable and "float" until the intended character is eligible to have the chronicle applied. This could be due to not meeting the level requirement or until they are finished with a game. Keep in mind this is just a general rule of thumb until something official comes out.
|
|
The real question in my post is this:
I start GMing a PbP scenario A on Monday, intending to apply to Character X.
I start playing a PbP scenario B on Tuesday, playing Character X.
On Wednesday, my GM session of A ends.
On Thursday, my player session of B ends.
What order do the chronicles go? AB or BA?
|
|
The real question in my post is this:
I start GMing a PbP scenario A on Monday, intending to apply to Character X.
I start playing a PbP scenario B on Tuesday, playing Character X.
On Wednesday, my GM session of A ends.
On Thursday, my player session of B ends.
What order do the chronicles go? AB or BA?
Well, if one is GMing, doesn't one decide when the chronicles get posted, ultimately? It'd be REALLY shady, but couldn't one just 'hold off' on posting the chronicles until Friday for one's GM'd scenario?
|
The real question in my post is this:
I start GMing a PbP scenario A on Monday, intending to apply to Character X.
I start playing a PbP scenario B on Tuesday, playing Character X.
On Wednesday, my GM session of A ends.
On Thursday, my player session of B ends.
What order do the chronicles go? AB or BA?
Now, if this was me, I'd just shrug and credit a different character with my GM Credit. Avoid the issue altogether.
That said, If I was dead-set on applying it to the character I'm currently playing:
I'm ordering them BA, with a note on my (GM) Chronicle saying 'held until completion of {Game B}.'
Developer
|
| 33 people marked this as a favorite. |
There are a number of situations that arise when we consider the play-by-post format that I don't believe factored heavily when prior campaign staff wrote and revised the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide; it makes the reasonable assumption that nobody could play or GM multiple games simultaneously. With that in mind, I acknowledge that I might be inadvertently contradicting an existing rule that could stand modification or an exception.
Here are my thoughts. Let me know if any of these would have problematic ramifications.
Would this miss anything or introduce additional difficulties?
|
John,
I think you've hit the nail on the head. Your first bullet point is the critical one, that you cannot apply a chronicle mid-adventure.
2nd bullet point is good on the procedure for adding chronicles in any case. Works for both pregen and GM credit, I would assume.
3rd is the tricky point... but, I don't think we need to or should codify any rules around this. Really doesn't matter that much, since the only situation that would really screw it up is if the GM also played scenarios/adventures that pushed him over the level limit. Even then, I think the Guide already sets the precedence there, that he'd just add the chronicles even if over tier (and effectively is penalizing himself)
You have it perfect on your 4th bullet -- Rule 1 is really the only and most important rule we need here.
Thank you for this well thought out response. I've been GMing a lot of PbP over the last year and a half, and we've had more than one debate over this!
|
|
The worst corner case I can think of would be if applying credit to a PC makes that character ineligible for something else.
For instance, you've got a PC who is 1 xp away from level 6, and you start playing him in a level 1-5 pbp. Then you GM a level 1-5 scenario. You couldn't apply that GM credit to that PC, because the pbp you're currently in should kick in first and make him level 6. Unless you do slow track, of course.
|
|
Here are my thoughts. Let me know if any of these would have problematic ramifications.
Spoiler:Once a character has started playing an adventure, that character should not receive any further credit until the adventure has concluded. This would not stop someone from assigning further credit to that PC (such as from GMing), but none of that credit would take effect (e.g. grant gold, Prestige, or XP) until the current adventure had concluded. This is to say that no character should spontaneously level up in the middle of an adventure.
At the end of the current adventure, a PC also receives credit for any pending Chronicle sheets, much as if the PC had a bunch of Tier 7–11 GM credits and had just reached 7th level. Similarly, assigning high-level GM credit to a PC that dies before redeeming that credit means that the credit is also lost.
Because a GM receives full credit for running a game, I feel pretty comfortable trusting a PbP GM who starts several such games at about the same time to assign the resulting Chronicle sheets in whatever order—even if those games end on different dates due to different scenario lengths or play speeds. I would, however, encourage GMs to do this only with adventures in the same category, not starting a scenario and a module simultaneously, finishing the module months after the scenario, and claiming module credit first.
Things get sticky in the above example if the GM receives credit for games X and Y, starts playing game A, and finishes GMing game Z only after game A has started. I assume that this would...
John,
Here's my ideas. Aiming for short and unambiguous.
I think this is clear enough, and doesn't allow anything abusive enough to be worth adding rules complexity to prevent. It does open up an ability to reorder GM chronicles in a way that was not previously possible, but I don't think it's a big deal, and the "before the next time you play" rule keeps the abuse potential down.
|
|
There are a number of situations that arise when we consider the play-by-post format that I don't believe factored heavily when prior campaign staff wrote and revised the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide; it makes the reasonable assumption that nobody could play or GM multiple games simultaneously. With that in mind, I acknowledge that I might be inadvertently contradicting an existing rule that could stand modification or an exception.
Here are my thoughts. Let me know if any of these would have problematic ramifications.
Once a character has started playing an adventure, that character should not receive any further credit until the adventure has concluded. This would not stop someone from assigning further credit to that PC (such as from GMing), but none of that credit would take effect (e.g. grant gold, Prestige, or XP) until the current adventure had concluded. This is to say that no character should spontaneously level up in the middle of an adventure.
At the end of the current adventure, a PC also receives credit for any pending Chronicle sheets, much as if the PC had a bunch of Tier 7–11 GM credits and had just reached 7th level. Similarly, assigning high-level GM credit to a PC that dies before redeeming that credit means that the credit is also lost.
Because a GM receives full credit for running a game, I feel pretty comfortable trusting a PbP GM who starts several such games at about the same time to assign the resulting Chronicle sheets in whatever order—even if those games end on different dates due to different scenario lengths or play speeds. I would, however, encourage GMs to do this only with adventures in the same category, not starting a scenario and a module simultaneously, finishing the module months after the scenario, and claiming module credit first.
Things get sticky in the above example if the GM receives credit for games X and Y, starts playing game A, and finishes GMing game Z only after game A has started. I assume that this would...
Thanks for the response, John! Drawing the distinction between assigning and applying the chronicles solves the issue elegantly and clearly.
So I can assign the chronicles from GMing at aethercon this weekend, but they are not applied to the character until he finishes the pbp game, albeit that I take the risk that the credit is lost if that character dies.
Now I just need my character to survive the Siege of Serpents. XD
Thanks John!
|
|
A GM may apply chronicles to a character any time between completing the scenario and next starting a scenario on the character as a player. (A GM chronicle still can't be applied to a character being played in extended play until after the extended scenario's chronicle.) I think this is clear enough, and doesn't allow anything abusive enough to be worth adding rules complexity to prevent. It does open up an ability to reorder GM chronicles in a way that was not previously possible
I don't see why this is needed, or even desirable. If a PC is locked in a module, and in the meantime the same person (as a GM) assigns credit for several scenarios to that PC, why shouldn't they be applied in order (once the module is completed and the module chronicle applied) like all other GM credit is?
|
|
I don't see why this is needed, or even desirable. If a PC is locked in a module, and in the meantime the same person (as a GM) assigns credit for several scenarios to that PC, why shouldn't they be applied in order (once the module is completed and the module chronicle applied) like all other GM credit is?A GM may apply chronicles to a character any time between completing the scenario and next starting a scenario on the character as a player. (A GM chronicle still can't be applied to a character being played in extended play until after the extended scenario's chronicle.) I think this is clear enough, and doesn't allow anything abusive enough to be worth adding rules complexity to prevent. It does open up an ability to reorder GM chronicles in a way that was not previously possible
Because if you assigned them by the date on the chronicle sheet, the GM credits would come before the credit for playing. And that's obviously wrong, since the play took place based on what the PC looked like before the GM credits were applied.
But I can see the point in saying that GM credits should be applied in order. The play credit needs to come before any GM credits that were assigned while the PC was locked up for playing, though, despite the inconsistency that creates if someone were to audit based on the dates on the chronicles.
|
|
I don't see why this is needed, or even desirable. If a PC is locked in a module, and in the meantime the same person (as a GM) assigns credit for several scenarios to that PC, why shouldn't they be applied in order (once the module is completed and the module chronicle applied) like all other GM credit is?A GM may apply chronicles to a character any time between completing the scenario and next starting a scenario on the character as a player. (A GM chronicle still can't be applied to a character being played in extended play until after the extended scenario's chronicle.) I think this is clear enough, and doesn't allow anything abusive enough to be worth adding rules complexity to prevent. It does open up an ability to reorder GM chronicles in a way that was not previously possible
I was trying to accommodate John's concern in his post about GMs of multiple PBP games that might not end in the order originally planned.
|
|
I don't see why this is needed, or even desirable. If a PC is locked in a module, and in the meantime the same person (as a GM) assigns credit for several scenarios to that PC, why shouldn't they be applied in order (once the module is completed and the module chronicle applied) like all other GM credit is?A GM may apply chronicles to a character any time between completing the scenario and next starting a scenario on the character as a player. (A GM chronicle still can't be applied to a character being played in extended play until after the extended scenario's chronicle.) I think this is clear enough, and doesn't allow anything abusive enough to be worth adding rules complexity to prevent. It does open up an ability to reorder GM chronicles in a way that was not previously possible
Because if you assigned them by the date on the chronicle sheet, the GM credits would come before the credit for playing. And that's obviously wrong, since the play took place based on what the PC looked like before the GM credits were applied.
But I can see the point in saying that GM credits should be applied in order. The play credit needs to come before any GM credits that were assigned while the PC was locked up for playing, though, despite the inconsistency that creates if someone were to audit based on the dates on the chronicles.
Which is why, along with marking "Core" on Core game chronicles, many of us already mark our GM chronicles with GM in some form, so we can see why Bard McBardiness didn't get a Day Job roll for scenario "53-007A - The Bards of Nevermoss eat Chocolate Cake!"
|
|
I was contemplating referencing bacon in there, too. Make it irresistible. Bacon-wrapped chocolate cake of goodness.
I think it gives your PC a +2 to the stat of your choice for a real world year after your PC eats it. And no souls were injured in the making of it, although at least one pig died. ;)
|
|
Which is why, along with marking "Core" on Core game chronicles, many of us already mark our GM chronicles with GM in some formYour own number and signature on the bottom should give you a clue. ;-)
It's more for being able to tell on a quick pass-through. "Oh, here's a chronicle for this game. Wait, it says GM, so I am still good to play it." Or on a an audit. Some people's handwriting is pretty bad....
|
|
If a PC is locked in a module, and in the meantime the same person (as a GM) assigns credit for several scenarios to that PC, why shouldn't they be applied in order (once the module is completed and the module chronicle applied) like all other GM credit is?Because if you assigned them by the date on the chronicle sheet, the GM credits would come before the credit for playing. And that's obviously wrong, since the play took place based on what the PC looked like before the GM credits were applied.
But I can see the point in saying that GM credits should be applied in order. The play credit needs to come before any GM credits that were assigned while the PC was locked up for playing, though, despite the inconsistency that creates if someone were to audit based on the dates on the chronicles.
That's exactly what I was saying (see my bolded part). After the chronicle for the scenario/module being played is applied, apply any outstanding GM credit chronicles in the order received (following the normal rules for holding higher-level GM credit if necessary).
It would be very similar to a player playing several scenarios with 4th-level pregens, holding the chronicles, then applying them in order once the PC reaches 9 XP.
|
|
There are a number of situations that arise when we consider the play-by-post format that I don't believe factored heavily when prior campaign staff wrote and revised the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide; it makes the reasonable assumption that nobody could play or GM multiple games simultaneously. With that in mind, I acknowledge that I might be inadvertently contradicting an existing rule that could stand modification or an exception.
Here are my thoughts. Let me know if any of these would have problematic ramifications.
Once a character has started playing an adventure, that character should not receive any further credit until the adventure has concluded. This would not stop someone from assigning further credit to that PC (such as from GMing), but none of that credit would take effect (e.g. grant gold, Prestige, or XP) until the current adventure had concluded. This is to say that no character should spontaneously level up in the middle of an adventure.
At the end of the current adventure, a PC also receives credit for any pending Chronicle sheets, much as if the PC had a bunch of Tier 7–11 GM credits and had just reached 7th level. Similarly, assigning high-level GM credit to a PC that dies before redeeming that credit means that the credit is also lost.
Because a GM receives full credit for running a game, I feel pretty comfortable trusting a PbP GM who starts several such games at about the same time to assign the resulting Chronicle sheets in whatever order—even if those games end on different dates due to different scenario lengths or play speeds. I would, however, encourage GMs to do this only with adventures in the same category, not starting a scenario and a module simultaneously, finishing the module months after the scenario, and claiming module credit first.
Things get sticky in the above example if the GM receives credit for games X and Y, starts playing game A, and finishes GMing game Z only after game A has started. I assume that this would default to the first bullet point, and the GM would just have to assign the credit to that character after game A concludes or assign the credit to a different PC. Would this miss anything or introduce additional difficulties?
Thanks for looking into this John.
I agree with all of this except the third bullet point. I think the current guidance in the Guide ('You must apply Chronicle sheets in the order they are received' - i.e. based on the end date of the PBP/multi-session game) should still apply to maintain consistency with other GM credit (e.g. GM credit babies), with the only exceptions being:
- Apply chronicles for games played before any GM chronicles earned while that game was in progress
- Hold higher level credit to be applied as soon as the PC reaches the level range of the chronicle.
|
|
I wonder if we should be using the date that the PbP game started on the chronicles with this, instead of the date it ends. That could clear up the ordering issues.
Also, it needs to be clear that this applies only to GM (or pregen perhaps) chronicles... If a character is "stuck" in a multisession game, you may not play it in any other game.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
And that you still cannot assign pregen credit to a character that could have played in the scenario/module. Unless it's a pregen-only special like the goblins/kobolds/aspis scenarios.
This is a popular point of confusion.
The only restriction to pregen credit is that you cannot apply a pregen chronicle to a character whose level is already equal to or greater than the level of the pregen you played.
If I have a level 2 character (Twosie the Fighter) and I play a 4th-level pregen Kyra in subtier 4-5 in a tier 1-5 scenario, I may hold that chronicle to apply to Twosie when he reaches level 4.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Dangit, now I want to sit at one of your tables, Nefreet! I'm fluent in Tengu Scratch!Linky
Also, wait, "now" you want to sit at one of my tables? =P