I'm peeved that my gnome fighter in PFS can't use a battle ladder or ripsaw glaive without taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency, but here I want to try and rationalize that decision. I think just about any (perceived) deficiency in the rules can be overlooked, as long as they support a strong and authentic lore. Ditto with the opposite case.
Weapons in the Gnomes of Golarion book are described as being lesser-known... So they could be lesser known, even among gnomes... Honestly, I'm not buying it. I started this thread so that others could help me justify the decision for myself, because I'm failing on my own.
The thing is that if reach tactics are so obviously vital to gnomes, then it seems weird to me that there's no common gnome reach weapon. The flail pole, at least, should be a gnome-flail-stick, or whatever. And I suppose gnomes are more whimsical now and less innovative, and so sticking two weapons together, or using objects in unusual ways (see Gnome Hooked Hammer, Flail Pole, or even Battle Ladder) are the best they can do. But then how does the Gnome Pincher get through? And if innovation IS something that's common in gnome society, then we need that flask thrower, or that shrillshaft javelin, or that ripsaw glaive. I just wish the judgement of gnome weapon (gnome pincher, gnome hooked hammer) vs non-gnome weapon (battle ladder, flash thrower) was more consistent.
Meh.
I think it's also odd that there's no gnome cross bow. The double crossbow seems like a good fit. And I also wish the battle ladder was a monk weapon.
Perhaps my biggest issue is that I'm confusing DnD 3.5 gnomes with Pathfinder Gnomes. In 3.5, each gnome basically had a PhD is something, according to the Races of Stone (or whatever). They even seemed (iirc) to devalue magic, as to them, the real world was much more interesting. The PF gnomes would probably share the latter trait, but in contrast, are always on the move, perhaps not settling down and thus missing out on the advantages of a steady workshop, or industry. And hence no steam-punk mechs.
But with all the moving around, and with all the trying to know and accept other races, it'd be fantastic for gnome weapon familiarity to encompass ALL other races' weapon familiarities. Perhaps that could be some sort of fighter archetype.
Well anyway. It doesn't make sense to me that the symbol of gnome ingenuity is a hammer combined with a hook. Or rather, if it is, then I don't see why gnomes can't have multiple favored class bonuses, given their lack of focus, and their desire to combine things. At least let there be a feat that allows this, the way there is for humans.
Is the issue of making Gnomes OP? I know that they currently start off with the most race points, thanks in part to their inherent magic.
I agree that Gnomes could use more weapons, preferably with an innovative design, functional for their size or, better yet, to take advantage of it. However...
Just because Gnomes are creative doesn't mean that all creative weapons (is that an oxymoron?) should be gnome weapons.
Creativity doesn't equal effective, either.
Finally, creativity and innovation can be hallmarks of a race without those traits being used for all facets of life.
I'm not as wellread on Gnomes as you are but they strike me as possibly the most peaceful of the common races, lowering the desire to turn those qualities to improve upon their weaponry. Their penchant to travel and live among other races further lowers this need as there are others who are better equipped to deal with these situations. This is all just theoretical, of course. I've never read anything to these effects but it seems a relatively logical extrapolation. Take it as you will.
Oh, wait, just one more thing! Giving gnomes all-encompassing weapon familiarity? I don't want to be insulting but... I'm sorry, that idea is just really stupid. Not only is it just too much, you're essentially removing a unique feature of those other races' cultures.
To go on a little further, 3.X gnomes were characterized as obsessive concerning one or a few particular fields of interest which could be next to anything. This made them very knowledgeable within those fields. Those fields weren't always the most useful...
Gnomes actually loved magic, even if they also had a vast interest in the natural world. They just didn't put it on a pedestal. The two were never mutually exclusive.
Is the gnome hookhammer an embarrassment? I think so, yes, but I don't mind. I consider it a holdover from 3.X.
Gnomes are certainly not op. They're just fine, actually, probably on the lower end of power compared to the other common races. I'd urge you not to use the Race Point system as a metric for power. The system is known to be incredibly flawed, evaluating abilities to highly making them exorbitantly costly and others too low making it foolish not to make such choices if one looks to optimize. The distinction for most powerful common race actually goes to the human (with some wiggleroom for disagreement). Aasimar are also vastly more powerful than their race points would suggest. I'll stop now, this is a topic that tends to derail a thread...
I agree that Gnomes could use more weapons, preferably with an innovative design, functional for their size or, better yet, to take advantage of it. However...
Just because Gnomes are creative doesn't mean that all creative weapons (is that an oxymoron?) should be gnome weapons.
Agree. I was making the point that if you don't want to invent new ones, adopt or adjust old ones. For example, Orcs are proficient with falchions, not "orc falchions."
I'm not as wellread on Gnomes as you are but they strike me as possibly the most peaceful of the common races, lowering the desire to turn those qualities to improve upon their weaponry. Their penchant to travel and live among other races further lowers this need as there are others who are better equipped to deal with these situations.
I love it. Makes perfect sense.
...But in that context, the description of how gnomes use the gnome-hooked hammer is ... way, way gruesome. But still, not incompatible with your notion, and of course for those gnomes who do turn to combat, they'd have to find something in it they enjoy (turning their childlike curiosity into cracking skulls).
Oh, wait, just one more thing! Giving gnomes all-encompassing weapon familiarity? I don't want to be insulting but... I'm sorry, that idea is just really stupid. Not only is it just too much, you're essentially removing a unique feature of those other races' cultures.
I meant it as a Fighter (Class) Archetype, unique to Gnomes, where bonus feats are replaced with Weapon Familiarity feats. The unique features of the other races would be earned, just as Humans can earn them with an alternate racial trait that currently replaces their bonus feat. So there's some precedent.
If general "Weapon Familiarity" feats are too powerful for most races, I propose that with gnomes, that power will be kept more in check.
I'd urge you not to use the Race Point system as a metric for power.
I don't, personally, but there must be some way to measure restraint, and reasons to limit things which would otherwise fit the lore of gnomes.
Agree. I was making the point that if you don't want to invent new ones, adopt or adjust old ones. For example, Orcs are proficient with falchions, not "orc falchions."I agree that Gnomes could use more weapons, preferably with an innovative design, functional for their size or, better yet, to take advantage of it. However...
Just because Gnomes are creative doesn't mean that all creative weapons (is that an oxymoron?) should be gnome weapons.
I understand. That said, I don't see the incentive for the race as a whole to do this. Individuals, sure, but not their entire culture, so not a part of their racial traits (or race traits... I always confuse the two). I would just reflect this through taking proficiency feats or taking classes that have such proficiencies already... Of course, that is entirely unhelpful to you, I'm sorry.
What might be helpful though is that I can see an alternative trait switching out the classic gnome weapon familiarity with those of another race (although this would almost always end up being a straight up powerboost). This could reflect their penchant to fit in with the other cultures they're immersing themselves in, maybe even a little learning through osmosis.Concerning Orcs (or Elves with their bows and longswords) their culture actually reflects their martial history, becoming a tradition. Skill at arms is considered a point of pride, as well. Gnomes, as a whole, lack that history and so the tradition. They're also a race who I feel take more pride in individual accomplishments than those of their race. In sports supporters often say 'we won/lost/etc. I don't think most gnomes would do that, they understand there's no real point in appropriating another's accomplishment as their own. This also compliments their continuous quest for new experiences. They're certainly capable of celebrating the victories/mourning the loss of another but it won't hold their own bleaching at bay...
Gnome weapon familiarity actually doesn't sit well with me for the reasons mentioned. I try to justify it through the weapons actually making more sense for their particular physique... Its a weak justification but there you have it anyway.
I'm not as wellread on Gnomes as you are but they strike me as possibly the most peaceful of the common races, lowering the desire to turn those qualities to improve upon their weaponry. Their penchant to travel and live among other races further lowers this need as there are others who are better equipped to deal with these situations.I love it. Makes perfect sense.
...But in that context, the description of how gnomes use the gnome-hooked hammer is ... way, way gruesome. But still, not incompatible with your notion, and of course for those gnomes who do turn to combat, they'd have to find something in it they enjoy (turning their childlike curiosity into cracking skulls).
I'm not familiar with that bit of text. I'm assuming its also from Gnomes of Golarion? Perhaps it has been reprinted in Inner Sea Races but, alass, I do not own it...
I suppose I'll just have to take your word for it for now!
Oh, wait, just one more thing! Giving gnomes all-encompassing weapon familiarity? I don't want to be insulting but... I'm sorry, that idea is just really stupid. Not only is it just too much, you're essentially removing a unique feature of those other races' cultures.I meant it as a Fighter (Class) Archetype, unique to Gnomes, where bonus feats are replaced with Weapon Familiarity feats. The unique features of the other races would be earned, just as Humans can earn them with an alternate racial trait that currently replaces their bonus feat. So there's some precedent.
If general "Weapon Familiarity" feats are too powerful for most races, I propose that with gnomes, that power will be kept more in check.
I apologize, I must've skipped that line when I read your post.
Its certainly doable and wouldn't be too powerful at all. In fact, it would be weak (as those same bonus feats could be used to gain those same proficiencies anyway. You're just tossing out the flexibility...). Of course, that gives you some room to play with to do something extra!...
I'd urge you not to use the Race
First off, oddly the quote function decided to cut off the rest from this point on. Is that normal, like, a wordcount type of thing?
Second, to actually adress what you said, you'd think so but actually, no. Pathfinder works according to asymmetric balance meaning roughly equal but not the same. Of course, consistency is off, sadly. The fighter and the wizard are not equal, for example. I've learned to intuit the actual value of thingy A versus thingy B. Mistakes crop up where I must admit I've valued something inappropriately after having played with it, but little by little you learn to distinguish those just a bit better than last time and you'll find you'll make less and less of those mistakes. Of course, all of this is from an optimizing point of view.I'm afraid I cannot offer you a genuine proven metric for you to adjudicate how far you can go in adding or changing things. I can, however, offer you insight, advice and criticism after the fact...
Edit: BTW, is there a reason you'd rather alter the gnome than discuss and design new gnome weaponry? It seems so much easier to me...
Discussing new gnome weaponry sounds like a great topic, and in fact there's an alternate racial trait that lets the gnome be proficient with any weapon he or she makes, practically encouraging a player to make something new, provided the GM allows it. If that sounds OP, I suppose it's limited by the fact that the gnome has to craft it his or herself, and that takes time. The time could be reduced if one makes a weaker or broken version of the weapon. Or if the GM lets the player treat the new quick invention as an improvised weapon. But alas, often rules get in the way, less GMs come to the rescue.
Discussing new gnome weapons is fun, but sort of limited if there's no effective way for players to use them. Hence why I'd ALSO (not only) discuss archetypes that could make use of these weapons.
For example, say there was an inventor archetype which let the gnome make or cobble together weird weapons, and then let other characters have proficiency in those weapons, so long as the inventor was guiding or coaching them in their use, sort of like a bard or sensei monk. Inventions would only last a certain number of rounds of use, and thus would be more like spells.
I've elsewhere described sticking a bear trap onto the end of a great hammer...
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Really, weapon familiarity is horribly unbalanced. Just looking at the exotic end of things, the elves probably get the best two (curve blade and branched spear as unusual finesse weapons) though they only get two, and the dwarves get the biggest selection including decent options like the waraxe and longaxe/longhammer. Orcs, like gnomes, get one mediocre double weapon and a niche combat maneuver thing (skull ram). And halflings get variations on the sling, which is flavourful but mechanically the worst ranged weapon, especially for a race with a strength penalty, and the variations don't fix that.
As an alternate racial trait, if you're looking at letting gnomes use other races' weapons, you'd need to let them pick only one racial exotic weapon to treat as martial, and even then it would be a good trade.
Now an "unconventional armaments" trait to get proficiency with something like the battle ladder or ripsaw glave would also be great, but I think you'd have to limit it to a specific list, since the idea would be to use weapons that are in fact unusual and not to give gnomes easy access to the more powerful exotic weapons like falcata or estoc.
There is a gnome inventor archetype for the gunslinger. It would be interesting to make a fighter that could apply similar modifications to non-firearm weapons.
First off, oddly the quote function decided to cut off the rest from this point on. Is that normal, like, a wordcount type of thing?
Yes, overly long quoted posts get broken off.
On the subject of asymmetric design, I understand that when applied to the different classes, but to the races? Actually, now that I think about it, I guess so. It's in line with the original DnD where not all races could be all classes. It's also a good reason to explain why the core races began cooperating so much: Each had something the others needed in order to survive and thrive.
That said, would the game be worse if we could make more interesting gnome fighters be more effective?
Now an "unconventional armaments" trait to get proficiency with something like the battle ladder or ripsaw glave would also be great, but I think you'd have to limit it to a specific list, since the idea would be to use weapons that are in fact unusual and not to give gnomes easy access to the more powerful exotic weapons like falcata or estoc.
It seems like it'd be so much easier to just treat all the Gnomes of Golarion weapons as gnome weapons. Or maybe make other races take feats in order to be able to craft them, or to reduce the DC for crafting them. Anything to make them more available to gnomes than to other races.
Any word on the decision behind why the weapons in the Gnome book weren't gnome weapons? Was that intentional, or was it an oversight?
There is a gnome inventor archetype for the gunslinger. It would be interesting to make a fighter that could apply similar modifications to non-firearm weapons.
That sounds cool. The Gnome Flick-mace sounds like just that. So would a hammer that can be used as an anvil. Or a flute that's a spoon.