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Hello!
Welcome to Dreamscarred's latest project, Arcforge: Technology Expanded. You may have also heard me refer to this as "Psitech" in other threads. Arcforge: Technology Expanded includes some awesome new options for you to play with, including new archetypes with mechs you can pilot, new mechanics for weapons and firearms, cool technological weapons, and more.
There's still a lot of material that I'm polishing up for this playtest, but there's been a lot of demand from people who want to start playing with the goodies we've got lined up, so I'm rolling it out now, but there will be numerous updates coming out hot and fast, including around a dozen more archetypes, even more feats and cybertech enhancements, and a limited bestiary including things like a variety of mechs that anyone with the Psi-Core Upgrade feat can pilot, a psionic kaiju, and an AI with the powers of of a Cryptic!
Google Doc playtest link for those who have issues with Dropbox
well to bring my thoughts on board to the new thread.
I am somewhat disappointed that mechs appear to be a class feature akin to animal companions unless I'm not reading it right. I always feel an immersion disconnect when things like that aren't treated as vehicles or other items. I'm crossing my fingers for non bonded mech in addition to bonded mech but I'm not too hurt without it. They seem tied thematically to psionics so I can live with 'psionic mechs' running alongside 'mechanical mechs' from other sources.
I've seen AP before. Given the amount of fuss generated by firearms and touch attacks armor ignoring bonuses and adding dex to damage has been my favorite recommendations for altering firearms for anyone that aren't satisfied with Pathfinder's firearms. I would love for a more general approach, i.e. Early firearms have x AP, Advanced have x AP, modern have x AP and Technological have x AP. Mainly because of third party firearms.
the wheels in my head right now started turning when I started reading. I'm happy to let psimechs be their own thing that requires psicrystals so for now in my current scifi campaign I'll leave it alone despite mecha existing from other rules. But those rules are a bit sparse and I haven't had a real chance to see them in action or playtest them so if they don't work out I'll probably simply let an AI operating system take the place of a mainframe psicrystal. Between the Technology Guide and Fat Goblin Game's Fantastic Technology, I have funtioning rules for crafting AI so its comparable up that point. From there I'd probably have to convert HD to a gold cost or leave it alone and have my own set of enhancements picked from other mech sources, justifying it as bonded mech being somewhat self evolving because psionics, not to mention that I have other sources of class-based mechs that I don't want to overshadow either.
I'm hoping that by the end of this I can run a G-Gundam campaign.
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I've got no interest whatsoever in Gundam but the mention of Xenogears has me hooked. =)
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Actually I liked the idea from the last thread of the Cavalier with a motorcycle+power suit like in Mospeada.
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well to bring my thoughts on board to the new thread.
I am somewhat disappointed that mechs appear to be a class feature akin to animal companions unless I'm not reading it right. I always feel an immersion disconnect when things like that aren't treated as vehicles or other items. I'm crossing my fingers for non bonded mech in addition to bonded mech but I'm not too hurt without it. They seem tied thematically to psionics so I can live with 'psionic mechs' running alongside 'mechanical mechs' from other sources.
I've seen AP before. Given the amount of fuss generated by firearms and touch attacks armor ignoring bonuses and adding dex to damage has been my favorite recommendations for altering firearms for anyone that aren't satisfied with Pathfinder's firearms. I would love for a more general approach, i.e. Early firearms have x AP, Advanced have x AP, modern have x AP and Technological have x AP. Mainly because of third party firearms.
the wheels in my head right now started turning when I started reading. I'm happy to let psimechs be their own thing that requires psicrystals so for now in my current scifi campaign I'll leave it alone despite mecha existing from other rules. But those rules are a bit sparse and I haven't had a real chance to see them in action or playtest them so if they don't work out I'll probably simply let an AI operating system take the place of a mainframe psicrystal. Between the Technology Guide and Fat Goblin Game's Fantastic Technology, I have funtioning rules for crafting AI so its comparable up that point. From there I'd probably have to convert HD to a gold cost or leave it alone and have my own set of enhancements picked from other mech sources, justifying it as bonded mech being somewhat self evolving because psionics, not to mention that I have other sources of class-based mechs that I don't want to overshadow either.I'm hoping that by the end of this I can run a G-Gundam campaign.
Carrying my response over-
The class-specific mechs got priority development. As some of the features refer to, there's also going to be a selection of non-class mechs that anyone with the right options (like a psi-core in mainframe mode) can climb in and operate, as part of a wider "bestiary" (bestiary being a pretty poor description, since there's going to be like 1 kaiju and a bunch of mech suits and a couple AI).
One of the reasons the AP chart has specific examples, was to kind of set a guideline for other materials while still allowing some differential between weapons that people might argue have variable punching power (pistols v. muskets v. concealable/hybrid weapons like the buckler gun). That being said, this is a playtest because we want to make sure that things that work in a vacuum work in the wider world as well. If enough people would prefer a general rule like you suggest, that's definitely something I can accomodate.
*Cough* Martian Successor Nadesico *Cough*
D'aww, I liked Psitech. To me it seemed to fit better than Arcforge. Oh well.
I liked Gundam Wing for a while, but giant 'mechs aren't on the top of my interest for mechs (unless it's Battletech-style). My main interest is in smaller 'mechs about 30ft. tall maximum, like Escaflowne, Patlabor, and the afore*coughed* Nadesico. Oh, cannot forget about the Macross Varitech Fighters(NOT Robotech thankyouverymuch).
YEARS ago I actually had the idea of a special group of psionic mech-pilots that could focus their powers THROUGH their mechs via integrated psicrystals in the machine's hands, chest, and forehead.
I'm also on the same boat as Malwing. Psimechs are awesome, but my homebrews have mechanical as well.
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It has been brought to my attention that the PsyWar archetype could probably use a better name than "Wildwing", particularly since you could build one all the way to 20th level and never actually have a flying mech (certainly not one that uses wings).
Some suggestions we're kicking around include-
Machine Warrior
Mechanical Warrior
Strider
Overdriver
Daring Pilot
Striker
Kamikaze
Metalmind (this just feels like something someone else has copywritten; let me know if that's the case)
And I'm going to be honest, I'm a fan of exactly 0 of them.
Any suggestions?
Also, putting the finishing touches on the Dread archetype (we're going with Eclipse as the archetype name) now. Will have it up shortly.
AURA.
BATTLER.
DUNBINE.
*.*
Aura Battler? :P
Psimech Pilot/Ace?
Heck, even though PsyWar is the abbreviation of the class name, that stood out as 'futuristic' to me.
I am fond of Overdriver actually. That is a cool name. If the name has to be changed, I feel that something implying action, power, or both is appropriate, since Overdrives are very dynamic, and well, powered by your awesomeness.
I am with Kryzbyn and Orthos here. Gundam is awesome, but mech-wise, Dunbine and Xenogears bring more fun to a player.
As for armor piercing, I think making general rules would be beneficial. I would like that more than going weapon by weapon.
Ace Pilot, or Ace? I still like Overdriver the most out of all the choices.
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I think I was misunderstood. I'm not hoping to be able to make a Gundam campaign. I'm hoping to be able to make a G-Gundam campaign. The one where the mechs are piloted exclusively by martial artists that tried to turn the Gundam series into freaking Street Fighter. Since it's powered by a crystal that has a personality I want to flavor it so that when I put my crystal in a mech it immediately grows a metal beard, beanie and and axes. Cause my crystal is a lumberjack.
What are people's thoughts on "Reactor Knight"?
It's the first one that two members of the DSP team have agreed on.
Me like.
So in addition to Gears can I get Magitek Walkers out of this? =D
Psi Reactor is cool.
Generator...Mechan O War...Acro-tech...
Reactor Knight is cool.
One thing that came to mind. I know this is the manifester's turf right now but wouldn't some of this be fitting with initiators? Like imagine vehicle-based maneuvers or siege weapon-based ones? I was thinking of this because I just started up a scifi campaign and I didn't think to include initiators because they didn't seem to fit anymore for some reason. Or rather they don't seem to interact with mecha and laser guns as much as generic fighters do.
Reactor Knight sounds like it should be for a full bab class, like a Soulknife piloting a mech. That being said, I do really like Reactor Knight name.
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I think we might have a winner with Reactor Knight.
What about Daidalan? (Their mech could be an agalmata.)
I think we might have a winner with Reactor Knight.What about Daidalan? (Their mech could be an agalmata.)
That's pretty cool too.
I think I was misunderstood. I'm not hoping to be able to make a Gundam campaign. I'm hoping to be able to make a G-Gundam campaign. The one where the mechs are piloted exclusively by martial artists that tried to turn the Gundam series into freaking Street Fighter. Since it's powered by a crystal that has a personality I want to flavor it so that when I put my crystal in a mech it immediately grows a metal beard, beanie and and axes. Cause my crystal is a lumberjack.
That sounds wicked fun, and funny. Now that I think of it, psicrystals have personalities to begin with. I think having the mechs take on some aesthetic traits related to the psicrystal is a really fun idea for fluff. But yeah, sorry for the misunderstanding. G-Gundam does provide a lot of interesting ideas.
Any possibility of a side-bar for psicrystal personalities and this?
Also, putting the finishing touches on the Dread archetype (we're going with Eclipse as the archetype name) now. Will have it up shortly.
Was so distracted with names I didn't even notice this. Considering the Dread is my favorite psion, I am pretty darn hyped.
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One thing that came to mind. I know this is the manifester's turf right now but wouldn't some of this be fitting with initiators? Like imagine vehicle-based maneuvers or siege weapon-based ones? I was thinking of this because I just started up a scifi campaign and I didn't think to include initiators because they didn't seem to fit anymore for some reason. Or rather they don't seem to interact with mecha and laser guns as much as generic fighters do.
There will be some non-psionic mech options in the final product, and initiators are definitely on the list. At the moment, I'm holding off on diving in to initiators, because martial initiation + big robots = potential ****storm if not done carefully and well. I'm still running some numbers and ideas for the low level stuff, looking for that balance point. It may end up being something that needs to be level gated, like a PrC, or something where they have to choose between their maneuvers and their mech until they hit a level where both can comfortably integrate.
Long story short, it's on the projected menu, but I'm still refining the recipe.
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Like imagine vehicle-based maneuvers or siege weapon-based ones?
heh... I partially want this now, simply because of the number of times the PoW dev's have said they will never do it because it wouldn't make sense. Since with mecha, it makes perfect sense :P
I cannot see how any ammount of kung-fu will make your trebuchete do any better. No offense, but I think siege weapons and initiating don't really work. I'd rather see an archetype focused on siege weapons than initiating catapults.
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I cannot see how any ammount of kung-fu will make your trebuchete do any better. No offense, but I think siege weapons and initiating don't really work. I'd rather see an archetype focused on siege weapons than initiating catapults.
Mech archetypes for initiators - on the list.
Disciplines for siege weapons - not on the list.
I'd be more likely to do something like adding a feat that lets you use an existing ranged discipline like Solar Wind with a siege weapon while piloting a mech if I was going to step into that minefield.
Initiators and mechs in general are best described as "obviously awesome but nearly impossible to balance". The closest you can get with the current materials is a Zealot who takes the Mech Piloting feat chain, which works reasonably well considering the natural power gating the feats represent.
I cannot see how any ammount of kung-fu will make your trebuchete do any better.
Its easy. The first strike would be 'Pop a Wheelie'. But seriously vehicles have ramming damage, its kind of a shame that its an unutilized statistic, and I think it can go with initiators easily.
Siege weapons probably not so much. Mostly because I don't think I've seen any gunkata disciplines yet so I don't know what that would look like.
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I may be the only one who wants this, but maybe an armed mobile church "robot" archetype for Cleric, Warpriest, or Inquisitor?
I think it would do a good job rounding everything out since we have nome archetypes for non-psionic classes like the Rogue and Druid.
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I may be the only one who wants this, but maybe an armed mobile church "robot" archetype for Cleric, Warpriest, or Inquisitor?
I think it would do a good job rounding everything out since we have nome archetypes for non-psionic classes like the Rogue and Druid.
An electric monk?
I may be the only one who wants this, but maybe an armed mobile church "robot" archetype for Cleric, Warpriest, or Inquisitor?
I think it would do a good job rounding everything out since we have nome archetypes for non-psionic classes like the Rogue and Druid.
A Deus Machina, if you will?
And RogueMortal, you can see here:
There will be some non-psionic mech options in the final product, and initiators are definitely on the list. At the moment, I'm holding off on diving in to initiators, because martial initiation + big robots = potential ****storm if not done carefully and well. I'm still running some numbers and ideas for the low level stuff, looking for that balance point. It may end up being something that needs to be level gated, like a PrC, or something where they have to choose between their maneuvers and their mech until they hit a level where both can comfortably integrate.
Long story short, it's on the projected menu, but I'm still refining the recipe.
And in the previous thread (should probably be reposted here):
It's actually on my list.
The archetypes I've got in some stage of development right now are-
Aegis
Daevic
Dread
Druid (bio mech)
Gunslinger
Marksman
Monk (inspired by Fei Fong Wong from Xenogears)
Psion
Rogue
Soulknife
Vitalist (possibly - this one may be cut if I can't nail down the mechanics)
WilderI've also just added the Cryptic archetype to the playtest docs.
So its not just psionics, and it was not planned on being just psionics. There will be mecha class archetypes for a variety of classes. There will be standard, buyable mechs too.
As for Craft Pharmaceuticals and the like, this still makes sense. Even in the most technologically advanced civilization, basic dudes probably won't be able to make technology. Most people living in 1st world countries cannot build a computer, cell phone, or watch from the parts, much less from scratch. They cannot make basic drugs like Tylenol.
I personally think that AP is much less of a headache for the GM than touch-AC all-the-time for gunslingers, but I can see your point. It definitely adds another something to think about.
As for the size stuff, I do agree about the size of the flight mech. I like the quadroped/wheeled mech being large size though. I think something that could help would be allowing a full reform of the mech's body type and mech enhancements when your mech would size up at 11th and 20th level.
Is there a reason that a gnome can get an aerial mech-suit sooner than a human? Would it somehow be unbalanced to have all three types start at the same size as the wearer, or even a size larger for those who don't want to play a certain ferrous male? The term "Mech" does tend to conjure images of robots the size of a bus at least.
That was my thoughts back in the first thread for this.
Delving a little further, I'm kinda disappointed that medium sized characters can't pilot an Aerial Mech until 11th level at this point. There's no way for a Medium character to fly on/in something at all at lv1 as a class feature.
The fact you can pilot a mech of your own size seems more Iron Man than Gundam too, but that's not going bother me any. I'll toy around with a Aerial character and see what I can come up with.
EDIT: What is the maneuverability of the Aerial Mech? It has a fly speed, but nothing to indicate if it's clumsy, average, good, etc.
It would also be kind of nice if when we get a size increase we also have the option of changing body type ad a free or reduced cost.
Example 1: I start at level one with a biped power suit! This is cool. I hit level 11 and the flying power suit is now available. We are now in a situation where staying medium and adding flight is expensive while becoming a large biped is free.
Example 2: I am a pilot and I always want my mech to be large, most important thing to me. Second most important thing is that I am biped. At level 1 I have a large quadruped. At level 11 I wanna change to a large biped, but it costs a lot of money despite it being free to upgrade to a Huge quadruped.
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There's actually no reason to change any of the technological crafting assumptions.
In the modern world, cars are assembled by factories full of people and machines. Those people, in game mechanics, are essentially using Aid Another to add to the crafting checks (recall, you can lower crafting time by increasing the DC). Those machines, in game mechanics, are tools that provide big bonuses to the crafting check, and which can absorb some of the time for you, similar to a 3.5 Artificer's homunculus. If I ran down to Jiffy Lube and grabbed one of the technicians, then left him in a sealed garage with all the raw materials to build a car and a wrench, a car would never come out of that garage. What you're really asking for is rules for having things like a garage, junkyard, or plant to help with the construction of technological items. Which is something I'd totally love to add.
As to the "not everyone needs Technologist to be familiar with technology in a modern setting", that's a campaign assumption. If you are playing in some place more advanced than Golarion, it would make perfect sense to waive the Technologist feat, both as a function and as a prereq. As a designer, I can't anticipate how these materials might be used in a given game. It could be that a GM lets someone play one of these classes in his Iron Gods AP, assuming the mech is an artifact scavenged from Numerian ruins (after all, that's how I did my initial playtesting). That being the case, all of these feats have to function exactly as they do. I certainly wouldn't be opposed to doing a brief write-up on how different campaign assumptions can impact these materials, if people think that would help.
It would also be kind of nice if when we get a size increase we also have the option of changing body type ad a free or reduced cost.
Example 1: I start at level one with a biped power suit! This is cool. I hit level 11 and the flying power suit is now available. We are now in a situation where staying medium and adding flight is expensive while becoming a large biped is free.
I don't see any problem with updating things so that any time you are allowed a size increase, you can change your body type and enhancements for free or half cost. I'll make that change when I get back from my game tonight.
Glad you approve of the non-psionic mechs. I personally don't think the buyable ones should compare to class ones. The whole reason mechs are allowed to be strong is that you give up your class features for them. In quite a few cases, they are irreplaceable combat bonuses. Psywar especially loses a lot. If the buyable ones can become bonded mechs for super-cool and unique bonuses, that would be ridiculously cool.
If anything, it was a flaw of the initial Technology Guide to not have a "when running a more futuristic game" sidebar that made technology less expensive and not require the Technologist feat, the way that Ultimate Combat had rules for emerging guns, common guns, and everything in between.
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Glad you approve of the non-psionic mechs. I personally don't think the buyable ones should compare to class ones. The whole reason mechs are allowed to be strong is that you give up your class features for them.
Word. The whole reason to do mechs as class features is to allow customizable options that won't break the game. Any mech that is stronger than what you can get via class features should essentially be an artifact.
In quite a few cases, they are irreplaceable combat bonuses. Psywar especially loses a lot. If the buyable ones can become bonded mechs for super-cool and unique bonuses, that would be ridiculously cool.If anything, it was a flaw of the initial Technology Guide to not have a "when running a more futuristic game" sidebar that made technology less expensive and not require the Technologist feat, the way that Ultimate Combat had rules for emerging guns, common guns, and everything in between.
As mentioned, I'll include a section for campaign assumptions that will impact things based on the assumed technology levels of your game world.
I quite like the paradigm from the Technologist feat. In a Golarion level setting its a barrier to a realm of things, and when I asked about it I was told that its perfectly reasonably to make it free for everyone if the setting called for it. Although there was no sidebar in the book, that was the stated intent on the product thread from my recollection. Currently I just give it for free and a bonus technological feat for classes that already get it.
I'm going to presume that the Power Rangers/Kamen Rider parallel is on purpose. (You get a device that interfaces with your mech and even has a personality. If you have a mech that's the same size as you, you can even morph.)
As I said before, I genrally prefer a situation where mecha are vehicles as opposed to being feat or class feature locked, but I have some mecha rules so I'm not terribly sore from it, especially sinc Ssalarn mentioned some mundane mechs (I imagine much weaker and more static than psi ones.) but the biggest thing to me is that it requires a psicrystal OS, which means that to make it a Akashic, Magic, or technological mech the only thing that would change would be the OS, so a Stave or Veil or motherboard would be sufficient. (If that happens may a reccomend exclusive enhancements for each OS type. Or better yet, let the base form be static and mundane vehicles and the OS responsible for the outlandish enhancements and growth progression.)
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How about Wild Rider instead?It has been brought to my attention that the PsyWar archetype could probably use a better name than "Wildwing", particularly since you could build one all the way to 20th level and never actually have a flying mech (certainly not one that uses wings).
I think I might snag that for the Cavalier archetype. I really like it.
I quite like the paradigm from the Technologist feat. In a Golarion level setting its a barrier to a realm of things, and when I asked about it I was told that its perfectly reasonably to make it free for everyone if the setting called for it. Although there was no sidebar in the book, that was the stated intent on the product thread from my recollection. Currently I just give it for free and a bonus technological feat for classes that already get it.
I'm going to presume that the Power Rangers/Kamen Rider parallel is on purpose. (You get a device that interfaces with your mech and even has a personality. If you have a mech that's the same size as you, you can even morph.)
As I said before, I genrally prefer a situation where mecha are vehicles as opposed to being feat or class feature locked, but I have some mecha rules so I'm not terribly sore from it, especially sinc Ssalarn mentioned some mundane mechs (I imagine much weaker and more static than psi ones.) but the biggest thing to me is that it requires a psicrystal OS, which means that to make it a Akashic, Magic, or technological mech the only thing that would change would be the OS, so a Stave or Veil or motherboard would be sufficient. (If that happens may a reccomend exclusive enhancements for each OS type. Or better yet, let the base form be static and mundane vehicles and the OS responsible for the outlandish enhancements and growth progression.)
There will definitely be non-class feature locked mechs, but generally they won't be as good or customizable as the ones gated behind class features (unless they're classified as technological artifacts and locked more into GM purview). There's also going to be a few different non-psionic mech options.
There's actually a section I'm working on about refluffing Akasha as technology and essence as bio-battery points that will include some refluffed existing veils and a selection of new ones, including archetypes and base rules for using these with mechs.
Are there any current ideas planned for archetypes that aren't mech related?
What's the maneuverability on a Aerial Mech's fly speed?
Possibly. And if you change "not mech related" to "don't get/need a mech" then definitely yes.
Well there is already engineer for the latter to a degree.