Are there rules for if a high-Str PC wants to be the propulsion for a vehicle? The vehicle rules seem to assume that the PC is the driver and some other beast/creature is the propulsion, and the PC is just trying to influence the creature to move the vehicle. If a PC has high enough Str and is willing, shouldn't they be able to do it without checks? Or at least without checks for basic things? I can understand some of the checks, like sharp turns, but it doesn't make sense for just simple stuff like speeding up or slowing down. Even then, it seems like it should be a Str check as opposed to a drive check.
Also, how do you know how much Str is needed to propel a vehicle?
Is the propulsion limited to the creature limits defined in the vehicles (such as 4 Medium OR 1 Large, 8 Medium OR 2 Large) or could a single creature/PC with enough Str do the work alone, despite their size?
Does the x2 speed of the pulling creature for maximum speed still apply, or could I theoretically get all the way up to my Run speed while pushing/pulling a vehicle?
Why do some vehicles list how many people they can hold (carriage) while others only list how much weight (wagon)? I assume that we could just calculate the weight of the party, and if it's within the weight tolerance of the wagon, it can hold them?
I'm just trying to figure out if my high-Str character (big, dumb, muscle) could be used as propulsion for a vehicle for the rest of the party.
Any advice on how to make this work properly, or pointers toward rules that already exist for this type of situation, would be appreciated.
I doubt there are any real rules for this anywhere. Characters' pushing/pulling a wagon in general is pretty easy, but sustained propulsion that you are talking about (with rules for starting/stopping fast, turning, etc.) is something you are just going to have to tinker with using a hodge-podge of other rules.
Fill up a wheelbarrow or wagon and try it out yourself and see what mechanics may make sense.
If you really, really want to get deep in the weeds. You can bring in actual statics/dynamics equations, which hardly seems necessary for a game, but that is always an option.
You just need to determine how much force it will take to do whatever it is you are trying to do, assign DCs based on the necessary force, and have the player make a Str check.
RaizielDragon wrote: Why do some vehicles list how many people they can hold (carriage) while others only list how much weight (wagon)? I assume that we could just calculate the weight of the party, and if it's within the weight tolerance of the wagon, it can hold them? Because carriages have extras like seats that make travel something other than extremely painful, bumpy, cramped, and downright awful. Have you ever tried riding a bare wagon or truck wagon? The novelty quickly gives way to how godawful the experience is.
I think the rules you are looking for in regards to your question are found in the Carrying Capacities.
They have weights limits listed by Strength Score. Also, take note of the lifting and dragging rules. "A character can generally push or drag along the ground as much as five times his maximum load." Note that the rules do state PUSH or DRAG. Since you are asking about pushing a cart, this would be your "go to" ruling.
After finding out the total weight that you would be pushing within the cart (also include the weight of the cart and all the equipment within the cart), you would then apply the encumbrance effects based on the load that you are pushing (refer back to the strength carrying capacity rules for load).
If the total load is valued at your medium weight value, then your speed lowers, but your run speed multiplier stays the same.
If the total load is valued at your heavy load, then your speed lowers and your run speed multiplier lowers as well.
If you have a higher speed than 30ft please refer to the encumbrance speed table for the drop in speed.
Because you are moving such a heavy load by yourself, you would most likely have to perform constitution tests if you wish to run constantly. You can run for a total amount of rounds equal to your constitution SCORE (not modifier). After which, you will need to make constitution checks to keep running (DC 10 to start and then +1 for each additional round you wish to keep running. Please note, that you cannot run across difficult terrain if you cannot see where you are going. This means that you will need to pull the cart across difficult terrain, but you can push the cart across all other terrain. Also note that running is a full round action.
Also, if the weight that you are trying to move is between your heavy load and double your heavy load, then you move at ONLY 5 ft per round as a full round action and lose any Dexterity bonus to AC that you currently have. This rule goes up to 5 times your heavy load.
You would have to have a massive amount of strength to be able to push the wagon using the above rules.
Example:
3 Medium Humans w/ Lowest Base Weight = 360 lbs.
4 Light Armors (including yours) = 40 lbs.
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400 lbs without the wagon, weapons, gear, and loot.
A strength of 20 is needed for just this to be a heavy load and run at x3 speed with a 20ft movement (lowered from 30).
It does say that you could push/pull up to double the listed amount in favorable conditions. I assume having wheels and being purpose-built to be pushed/pulled around would be considered favorable conditions.
Muscle of the Society allows you to count your Str as 2 higher for purposes of carrying capacity, so if we were to use those rules, that trait would be useful.
Also, the PC can be large under the right circumstances, which doubles all numbers for the carrying capacity.
I also couldn't find the weights of the vehicles listed, so it would be difficult to include them in the calculations.
Either way, the push/pull method was what I was considering, however that is what opened up the question of: can I go at my full run-speed instead of just the x2 speed mentioned in the vehicle?
Also, your character is essentially serving as a mount pulling a cart/wagon. So the mount rules and capacity rules are going to come into play the most.
For example:
Overland Movement:
From the PRD, you can also read that a large quadraped (horse) gets STR x 3 to determine its load, while a medium quadraped (pony) gets STR x 1.5, which will be important when comparing to your biped char pulling over long distances.
So the horse effective STR is 16x3=48 while the pony effective STR is 13x1.5~=20.
The PRD overland rules for cart/wagon says 2 miles/hour and 16 miles/day, without regard to the type of mount, so standard horse is likely assumed. Depending on where your character's Str score falls between 48 and 20, you could figure out a ratio and reduce the overland travel by that much.
Remeber though, a horse pulling a wagon also has special harness. If you aren't going to use some type of pulling harness around your waist, then you could also factor in fatigue if you are pulling (due to grip strength).
Pushing a wagon is probably a lot easier, imo.
Also, remember that carrying capacities increase based on size and how many legs you have.
Large Creatures (Enlarge Person Spell) has their maximum weight at x2 the strength value.
Quadrupeds (Creatures with 4 legs) has their maximum weight increased by x1.5.
A Large Quadruped has a carrying capacity at x3 (x2 for large x1.5 for Quadruped = x3)
For harness, I was picturing something like a rickshaw, with a crossbeam(s) to push forward on instead of just grabbing two handles and pulling forward via grip. It would be a little less awkward than a rickshaw since you don't have to worry about balancing it on two wheels and can instead just focus on pushing it forward.
Why not make it simple?
Replace your horse with a human who has STR equal to the horse, and now the human can pull the wagon just as effectively as the horse could. But human movement speed is slower than a horse, so substitute the correct movement speed and in all other ways treat it like having a horse pulling the wagon. Of course, with a human pulling it, you probably don't need a bit/bridle, reins, or other horse-controlling implements (although the wagon's occupants might find it fun to whip the guy pulling the wagon, you know, just because).
But you really don't need any more rules than that.
So here, for simplicity:
A light horse has a 16 STR. It is a large quadruped so it has 3x the carrying capacity of a medium humanoid with the same STR. The rules say your carrying capacity increases x4 for every 10 points, so x2 sounds like it should be at 7.5 (rounded to 8 points). Therefore, for a human to match the carrying capacity of a horse, he should have about a 24 STR. The chart agrees (a horse with 16 STR has 690 capacity, while a humanoid with 24 STR has 700 capacity, almost exactly the same).
Therefore, if you find a humanoid with 24 STR he should be able to pull a wagon (etc.) exactly as easily as a horse can, which is to say, at his maximum movement rate (which is normally less than a horse's). Since the humanoid moves at 60% of the speed of a horse, then a humanoid-drawn wagon should move at 60% the speed of a horse-drawn wagon.
If you add 10 more STR points to that same guy (a 34 STR), he could pull the wagon exactly as easily as four horses, at 60% the move rate.
Of course, magic can change all of this. Make him bigger and he can pull more, make him faster and he can pull faster, etc., but this applies to horses too so those rules haven't changed.
Good point. That was why I asked about if the number/size of creatures involved mattered.
A Wagon, for example, says it takes 4 medium creatures or 1 large creature.
A Carriage says 6 Medium or 2 Large.
None of these estimates take into account Str scores or number of legs of the subject creatures.
The "twice the speed of the pulling creature" seems kind of arbitrary as far as maximum speed of the vehicle.
Horses have the Run feat, meaning they get x5 speed when they run (down to x4 if encumbered).
Is it assumed that the speed is only if the pulling creature is hustling and not running, hence the x2 speed? Or is it assuming a higher multiplication, and therefore running, but also factoring in reduced speed due to weight encumbrance?
How do you know if your character is encumbered, and therefore has reduced speed, if they are pulling/pushing the weight, and not actually carrying it?
I get that it's pretty simple to just do a percentage of a normal horse, but it's also simple to just say that a horse pulling a wagon has a speed of 100ft (x2 speed) but a humanoid would only have 60ft (x2 speed, assuming typical 30ft base speed). However this doesn't take into account feats like Run that can change maximum speed.
It also doesn't take into consideration the fact that the pushing/pulling creature can probably go faster if the load is light. Or can push/pull more if they reduce their speed. This is somewhat covered by the fact that speed is reduced when encumbered, but again, this doesn't seem to be taken into consideration by the x2 speed rule of the wagon.
For instance, in your example, a medium humanoid with 24 Str can pull the same load as a light horse. But what if that Humanoid was Large. Now they are Large with 24 Str, meaning they can pull twice as much as the Medium humanoid with 24 Str. So they can essentially do the same work as 2 Light Horses, meaning it is 2x as easy for them to do the same work a single Light Horse would do. Shouldn't this translate into being able to pull the same load faster than the Light Horse, despite the Light Horse having the higher speed? Perhaps the maximum speed then is 3x the pulling creatures speed, to reflect the fact that the pulling creature is essentially over-qualified in the Str department for the work involved? this would still only put the speed at 90ft when pulled by the humanoid, but that's getting much closer to the 100ft speed the light horse can attain.
Raiziel. The item that I posted above should help you as it takes into account even what Blake was stating. If you wish to go with Blakes idea, then maybe below will help.
Example:
Light Horse Strength at 16 = 230 lbs.
Carrying Capactiy at Strength 16 = 230 lbs x 3 = 690 lbs.
Human Strength at 24 = 700 lbs.
Large Human Strength at 24 = 700 lbs. x 2 = 1400 lbs.
In regards to your statement on pulling faster, that does not apply. You speed is still static, even if you have an easier time pulling or pushing. The weight that you have on only affects your max speed, just because you make what you are wearing lighter, you do not go faster (30ft to 40ft). You are still limited by your racial max speed.
Note that a light horse has a speed of 50. That is one move action. The horse gets 100ft per round because they take two move actions. 50 + 50 = 100ft.
A human would be able to pull the cart (assuming you are using Blakes simplicity rules) but would still be limited to their speed. 30ft + 30ft = 60ft.
Since the rules do not apply perfectly to the situation, this falls within the realm of a DM's responsibility. It seems reasonable that a PC could pull a cart or even a wagon if strong enough. The guidelines given above seem like a good place to start. Rules don't cover every clever idea, that's what makes table top RPGs great, you can do things not covered in the rules. Work it out with your DM and have a good time.
Yeah, I wasn't sure if the x2 was based off a double move, or hustle, or if there was some more complicated math going on for them to come up with that estimate. If the driver gets the horses to run, can the vehicle go faster than just x2 speed? Seems like not, since it says that is the max speed, but seems weird that you couldn't have the horses go faster than just a quick trot. Which is why I thought maybe they were only getting up to x2 speed under the assumption that they were also encumbered and therefore their speed was being reduced, hence their max speed was also reduced. Seems like not the case though.
I agree. this is definitely in the realm of "work it out with the GM". It's nice to have a good understanding of rules that are closely related to the concept (carrying capacity, vehicles) before beginning such a discussion though. I could, for example, show this thread to my GM and point out the general consensus that, yes, with enough strength, a PC can pull a wagon.
I guess the estimate of having an equivalent max load to pull and pulling at the characters max speed is the easiest way to implement it. It does mean that it's somewhat sub-par to do so though, since Horses are just straight up faster. Though easier to kill as well.
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