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Does a Ghost Touch wielded by an incorporeal creature weapon ignore natural armor and armor or does it strike against regular AC? It's pretty clear how Ghost Touch works if you're corporeal, but it seems weird for incorporeal creatures.
Special Abilities, d20pfsrd wrote: Incorporeal (Ex)
An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source (except for channel energy). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead. Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature. Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.
An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if the creature’s Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus).
An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.
An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight.
An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Perception checks if it doesn’t wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to its melee attacks, ranged attacks, and CMB. Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see.
Ghost Touch, d20pfsrd wrote: Ghost Touch
Price +1 bonus
Aura moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Weight —
DESCRIPTION
A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. An incorporeal creature's 50% reduction in damage from corporeal sources does not apply to attacks made against it with ghost touch weapons. The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as both corporeal or incorporeal.
Holy crap, I've never thought of this situation.
I want to say Ghost Touch weapons wielded by incorporeal creatures strike against normal AC, since those weapons can be wielded by both incorporeal and corporeal creatures. However I can't find anything to actually back that up...
Ghost Touch only makes a material object "count as incorporeal", it is still material and must target normal AC. (Additionally, this means such an object cannot pass through solid material like the creature can).
'spectral copies' of weapons cannot affect the material plane without Ghost Touch, but because they then also "count as corporeal" I would not let them target touch AC.
So does anybody have anything rules-conclusive on this?
I kinda want to say it hits against regular AC, but I also can't find anything that explicitly states that.
If a regular corporeal creature wields a ghost touch weapon against another regular corporeal creature, does it ignore armor?
No. So if wielded by a ghost, it would still not ignore armor.
A ghost touch weapon touches incorporeal creatures as if they are corporeal, that's why it does normal damage to them. It's also why they can pick it up and move it. It counts as corporeal and incorporeal at the same time in regards to effecting the incorporeal, not in regards to effecting the corporeal.
Literally, I think My Self has a point. I think it was meant to read only an incorporeal creature’s natural attacks ignore armor. Ghost touch weapons are the exception to that rule.
Archaeik wrote: Ghost Touch only makes a material object "count as incorporeal", it is still material and must target normal AC. (Additionally, this means such an object cannot pass through solid material like the creature can).
'spectral copies' of weapons cannot affect the material plane without Ghost Touch, but because they then also "count as corporeal" I would not let them target touch AC.
"Spectral copies" of equipment are only visual props. The headless ghost in full plate wielding a greatsword is still using its corrupting touch to damage you, even if what you see hitting you is a greatsword.
Diego Rossi wrote: Archaeik wrote: Ghost Touch only makes a material object "count as incorporeal", it is still material and must target normal AC. (Additionally, this means such an object cannot pass through solid material like the creature can).
'spectral copies' of weapons cannot affect the material plane without Ghost Touch, but because they then also "count as corporeal" I would not let them target touch AC.
"Spectral copies" of equipment are only visual props. The headless ghost in full plate wielding a greatsword is still using its corrupting touch to damage you, even if what you see hitting you is a greatsword. Classic Horrors Revisited wrote: Grave Trappings (Su)
Challenge Rating: +0.
The ghost died with a strong attachment to a specific item or set of objects. A ghost with this ability may choose a number of items it died with equal to its Charisma modifier to carry with it into death. The ghost continues to be able to use and benefit from these spectral duplicates just as though they were the real things. Weapons and armor are treated as having the ghost touch special ability, while other items act as being incorporeal themselves and can be manipulated by the ghost. Regardless of the type of object, all selected items are treated as being part of the ghost’s form and cannot be disarmed or removed from the ghost (even by the ghost). Should a ghost be destroyed, its equipment reappears with it upon rejuvenating. (CR +0) Occasionally, and at the GM’s discretion, the transition into death might imbue a single ghostly item with strange powers, granting it powers comparable to a magic item suited to the ghost’s character level.
Diego Rossi wrote: Archaeik wrote: Ghost Touch only makes a material object "count as incorporeal", it is still material and must target normal AC. (Additionally, this means such an object cannot pass through solid material like the creature can).
'spectral copies' of weapons cannot affect the material plane without Ghost Touch, but because they then also "count as corporeal" I would not let them target touch AC.
"Spectral copies" of equipment are only visual props. The headless ghost in full plate wielding a greatsword is still using its corrupting touch to damage you, even if what you see hitting you is a greatsword. But a regular ghost can pick up a Ghost Touch sword or use a class feature to make their sword Ghost Touch, or, as Archaeik said, have the Grave Trappings ability and have Ghost Touch items.
Why bother? Incorporeal creatures have no strength score. Barring swashbucklers, dex-to-damage, etc, they're better off using their touch attack.
Archaeik wrote: Diego Rossi wrote: Archaeik wrote: Ghost Touch only makes a material object "count as incorporeal", it is still material and must target normal AC. (Additionally, this means such an object cannot pass through solid material like the creature can).
'spectral copies' of weapons cannot affect the material plane without Ghost Touch, but because they then also "count as corporeal" I would not let them target touch AC.
"Spectral copies" of equipment are only visual props. The headless ghost in full plate wielding a greatsword is still using its corrupting touch to damage you, even if what you see hitting you is a greatsword. Classic Horrors Revisited wrote: Grave Trappings (Su)
Challenge Rating: +0.
The ghost died with a strong attachment to a specific item or set of objects. A ghost with this ability may choose a number of items it died with equal to its Charisma modifier to carry with it into death. The ghost continues to be able to use and benefit from these spectral duplicates just as though they were the real things. Weapons and armor are treated as having the ghost touch special ability, while other items act as being incorporeal themselves and can be manipulated by the ghost. Regardless of the type of object, all selected items are treated as being part of the ghost’s form and cannot be disarmed or removed from the ghost (even by the ghost). Should a ghost be destroyed, its equipment reappears with it upon rejuvenating. (CR +0) Occasionally, and at the GM’s discretion, the transition into death might imbue a single ghostly item with strange powers, granting it powers comparable to a magic item suited to the ghost’s character level.
"having the ghost touch special ability"
So opinions aside, does anybody have anything conclusive yet?
Sandal Fury wrote: Why bother? Incorporeal creatures have no strength score. Barring swashbucklers, dex-to-damage, etc, they're better off using their touch attack. Two words: Bard archers
Diego Rossi wrote: "having the ghost touch special ability" Ghost Touch does not change the base nature of the item to which it is applied.
A spectral copy is still incorporeal and may pass through solid matter.
I'm not arguing that it should target touch, only that there is a way for incorporeal weapons to offer the same benefit as material ones.
The line about "being part of the ghost's form" is not indicative of anything other than the objects' inseparability from the creature.
I would agree that the weapon, in the case of Grave Trappings, may be used either to make the normal incorporeal touch or as the object it appears to be using the Ghost Touch rules. (keep in mind, this special does not actually count toward the +10 limit of the weapon, it's quite broken in that regard)
Sandal Fury wrote: Why bother? Incorporeal creatures have no strength score. Barring swashbucklers, dex-to-damage, etc, they're better off using their touch attack. This is generally the case, but Conductive can really help this. Coupled with certain abilities like Sneak Attack, multiple attacks (from BAB) end up being more advantageous for a few edge builds.
Also, regardless of dex to damage, incorporeals always use dex to hit.
Archaeik wrote: Also, regardless of dex to damage, incorporeals always use dex to hit. Unless they have a Guided weapon, or the Guided Hand feat, or are a Zen Archer Monk.
Honestly, the Incorporeal entry says "An incorporeal creature's attacks,"
So truthfully, it depends on who is wielding it.
If it were a regular creature? Targets normal AC. You want to target Touch AC stuff, you get a Brilliant Energy weapon.
If it were an incorporeal creature? Targets "Touch" AC. Because every attack of an Incorporeal Creature targets "Touch" AC. It doesn't matter what method of attack, whether it's laser beams, a little poke, or a ghastly sword.
I don't know how this can be any more complicated...
Darksol the Painbringer wrote: Honestly, the Incorporeal entry says "An incorporeal creature's attacks,"
So truthfully, it depends on who is wielding it.
If it were a regular creature? Targets normal AC. You want to target Touch AC stuff, you get a Brilliant Energy weapon.
If it were an incorporeal creature? Targets "Touch" AC. Because every attack of an Incorporeal Creature targets "Touch" AC. It doesn't matter what method of attack, whether it's laser beams, a little poke, or a ghastly sword.
I don't know how this can be any more complicated...
Ghost Touch looks like it's saying that the weirder should target regular AC, but this here seems to be the only conclusive thing in either direction.
My Self wrote: Darksol the Painbringer wrote: Honestly, the Incorporeal entry says "An incorporeal creature's attacks,"
So truthfully, it depends on who is wielding it.
If it were a regular creature? Targets normal AC. You want to target Touch AC stuff, you get a Brilliant Energy weapon.
If it were an incorporeal creature? Targets "Touch" AC. Because every attack of an Incorporeal Creature targets "Touch" AC. It doesn't matter what method of attack, whether it's laser beams, a little poke, or a ghastly sword.
I don't know how this can be any more complicated...
Ghost Touch looks like it's saying that the weirder should target regular AC, but this here seems to be the only conclusive thing in either direction. Ghost Touch property allows it to count as both material and incorporeal. This means it deals full damage to both types, and can be used by both types.
But it doesn't circumvent the rule that all Incorporeal creatures' attacks ignore Armor and Shield bonuses that aren't Force Effects.
Darksol the Painbringer wrote: My Self wrote: Darksol the Painbringer wrote: Honestly, the Incorporeal entry says "An incorporeal creature's attacks,"
So truthfully, it depends on who is wielding it.
If it were a regular creature? Targets normal AC. You want to target Touch AC stuff, you get a Brilliant Energy weapon.
If it were an incorporeal creature? Targets "Touch" AC. Because every attack of an Incorporeal Creature targets "Touch" AC. It doesn't matter what method of attack, whether it's laser beams, a little poke, or a ghastly sword.
I don't know how this can be any more complicated...
Ghost Touch looks like it's saying that the weirder should target regular AC, but this here seems to be the only conclusive thing in either direction. Ghost Touch property allows it to count as both material and incorporeal. This means it deals full damage to both types, and can be used by both types.
But it doesn't circumvent the rule that all Incorporeal creatures' attacks ignore Armor and Shield bonuses that aren't Force Effects. Good luck, party fighting against ghosts who have ghost touch weapons.
Anybody have anything conclusive on this?
Darksol the Painbringer wrote: Honestly, the Incorporeal entry says "An incorporeal creature's attacks,"
So truthfully, it depends on who is wielding it.
If it were a regular creature? Targets normal AC. You want to target Touch AC stuff, you get a Brilliant Energy weapon.
If it were an incorporeal creature? Targets "Touch" AC. Because every attack of an Incorporeal Creature targets "Touch" AC. It doesn't matter what method of attack, whether it's laser beams, a little poke, or a ghastly sword.
I don't know how this can be any more complicated...
Lasers are touch weapons anyway, so a "ghost touched timeworn laser rifle" from numeria might be the way to go, if it's possible to make technology weapons magic weapons...
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