
Franko a |

I have not played high level PF (>10th).
But in general it seems that big boss guys in published adventures seem underpowered. How often do they take advantage of the time and paranoia to have defense in depth?
Don't know why its bugging me, but with all the postings of character builds, it seems that bad guys are never optimized.

My Self |
Players don't like optimized enemies, because properly optimized and played enemies can force multiple resurrections, even if they ultimately lose. Also, optimized characters are often more difficult to understand than a single-class enemy with CRB feats. Plus, flavor-wise, optimized characters are usually really, really weird.

Franko a |

Players don't like optimized enemies, because properly optimized and played enemies can force multiple resurrections, even if they ultimately lose. Also, optimized characters are often more difficult to understand than a single-class enemy with CRB feats. Plus, flavor-wise, optimized characters are usually really, really weird.
I understand. And I don't disagree.
But let me at least look at wizards.A high level wizard should be really hard to kill. Tactically, id someone has breached the "wizard keep" they should have already escaped to the secondary hideout.
My wizards tend to have multiple layers, it seems that the other side would as well.
<shrug>

SmiloDan RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

I like to make BBEG with one or two "tricks" that are fun to encounter, like a fighter that can hit you and throw you through the air. Or a wizard that teleports as an immediate action to avoid being hit, or a group of fragile but highly accurate sneak attackers.
It's also fun if they have a vulnerability to exploit. Especially if it's the favorite schtick of a PC, like using create water on a salt mummy (3.5 MM3).

![]() |

In my experience it's the opposite. Players dislike enemies who are underpowered. Espcially BBEGs. Nothing is more anti-climatic then one who dies in two or three rounds. The published adventures BBEGs usually need a reworking. Most can be too easily defeated. Even by a non-optimized group. For example in Rise of the Runelords their a BBEG who use faced in a enclosed area. Yet given no crowd control spell.

SmiloDan RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |

We're doing a 5E conversion of RotR and the BBEG have not disappointed! We just hit level 11 and ended Part 5.
But 5E has some cool new options, like Legendary Actions and Lair Actions. Legendary actions are usable after another creature's turn, so it helps mitigate the action economy of a single BBEG vs a party of heroes. And high level cantrips can do 4d10 points of damage....

![]() |

I generally prepare my Big Boss by setting up an offshore operation, building up my motherbase, and raiding other forward operating bases to just raid them all for resources and men, no mercy. And then I...wait...
I'm disappointed this isn't about Big Boss from MGS.
...nevermind...

lemeres |

It is a fine balance.
Too weak, and he gets taken out immediately with doing anything.
Too strong, and not only do you risk TPK, but you risk having multiple deaths and for the players to generally feel it was cheap. And this can be an issue, since unlike many RPGs, the deaths in pathfinder (and other D&D games) at supposed to matter, at least to some extent.
If this was pokemon, and half my team got KO'd by a gym leader, I would say good game and then go to the pokemon center. But in pathfinder, there is a noticable expense which can be crippling at earlier levels (if there is not a complete lack of rezz-ing at all).
You also have to take into account your pplayers' optimization, as well as their tolerance to beat downs that can vary from person to person (some people prefer pokemon to darkest dungeon ....and I just realized the best way to describe darkest dungeon: pokemon, only your party can get violently murdered permanently, and that can freak the survivors out enough that they becoming gambling addicted alcoholics or take up cutting themselves...)

![]() |

I generally prepare my Big Boss by setting up an offshore operation, building up my motherbase, and raiding other forward operating bases to just raid them all for resources and men, no mercy. And then I...wait...
Oncoming_Storm wrote:I'm disappointed this isn't about Big Boss from MGS....nevermind...
You're pretty good.