Class Balance Challenge (Help / Opinions Wanted!)


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


So, I was kinda curious. I wanted to do a structured balance thread - not just saying "Casters are better/NO THEY AREN'T SHUDDUP!"

So here's 10 common things from a spectrum of circumstances that can easily come up in a well run campaign that isn't just straight fighting. Explain how ONE CHARACTER (not the same class optimized for different circumstances but ONE character of ONE class) can handle the situation. Specific numbers aren't really necessary, I'm okay with generalizations. But y'know, a class of a certain level can only really have a maximum hypothetical score in any ability. So don't be silly.

Also, please have fun. Get creative, not ranty and angry! And finally, it doesn't matter if a solution is elegant or efficient as long as it works. This is what should happen in a campaign, and I'd say a class is balanced ENOUGH (not perfectly, or the absolute best at a specific circumstance, but good enough to do it) However, efficiency is NICE. So don't totally discount it, but try and find a solution.

For character level... do three. One at 5, one at 10, and one at 15. Add more if you want, but I think early levels are boring and nobody ever continues campaign until 20th level anyway. This is for practical stuff, not hypotheticals.

NOTES
PLEASE DON'T MAKE LIKE THREE CHARACTERS OR CLASSES! PICK ONE!

DON'T TRY AND COVER EVERY SCENARIO IF THE CHARACTER/CLASS ISN'T ABLE TO! ROGUES SHOULDN'T TRY AND CURE DISEASES; THAT'S SILLY! THEY SHOULD, HOWEVER, BE ABLE TO TRY AND FIND WHO STARTED SPREADING IT!

THE LIST
1. Persuade a local noble to help the party. Assume the noble is a mid-level rogue (or something similarly appropriate for the nobility, I like rogue) with a reasonable ability to do diplomacy things and tell when people are lying, because if they were totally incompetent that would be silly. Also assume they can be persuaded, obviously.
2. Kill a single powerful monster, like a dragon. Assume it's clever and prepared.
3. Kill a group of mediocre monsters, like Orcish raiders with a few levels. Assume they're clever and prepared.
4. Get inside an enemy's stronghold without the enemy knowing. Assume they have important hostages, or some other hook in them to keep them from just knocking the place over.
5. Get through a heavily trapped place, like the Tomb of Horrors or a wizard's vault.
6. Cure a fatal disease that's spreading throughout a population.
7. Find who or what spread the fatal disease in the first place.
8. Get information from an unwilling crime lord, through a method that's not straight persuasion. Hence the "unwilling" aspect.
9. Discover an extremely obscure bit of lore about an artifact.
10. Stop or control an extremely, ridiculously powerful monster that's raging out of control. Think the Tarrasque, but not so lame that a spellcaster in the single digits can kill it.

If anyone has suggested circumstances to add that are totally different (as in, relying on completely different skills and abilities) post it! The more the merrier.


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Your premise is invalid.

First, you require just one character. No one character can readily do all the stuff on this list. Even a Master-of-the-Universe wizard will likely get himself killed trying #2 or #3 alone, and seems even more likely to get killed with #4 and especially #5.

Second, this is a GROUP game. Scenarios like you provided are meant to be handled by a group. Your list is a good one for a balanced group where some PCs will get a chance to shine on some of these while different PCs will shine in other ones. That's by design. But to ask for one guy to solve the whole group-oriented list is basically missing the point of the game.

And finally, while I'm known for very long posts, even I am not going to try to write 30 separate paragraphs about how I would have a guy try your 10 things at 3 different levels each.

I will suffice it to say that if anybody posts how one character can reasonably do all of this list, then "clever and prepared" was ignored, the stealth missions into an enemy's stronghold was misplayed by the GM, and especially the run through Tomb of Horrors was played by a GM who obviously coddled his solo player.


You are correct on all counts, though my original post may have been unclear.

One character isn't supposed to do everything. It's a metric of what one character CAN solve. I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear, but I don't think one class should be able to do all this either.

And yes, it is a group game. But often, one class does shine or takes care of one aspect. The cleric doesn't check for traps, and the rogue doesn't lecture the wizard on outsiders, and the wizard leaves the cursing and uncursing and resurrection to the class that has those abilities. But the point is to have a class that OVERALL can handle these scenarios, and that requires having at least one character equipped to deal with them.

Also, please don't make that many characters... that would be exhausting. Try one - say a 10th level rogue - and explain.


Fighter, Evil

1. Persuade a local noble to help the party.

5: Take debt. Without diplomacy it will be a big debt and will probably lead to some side-quests if DM wants so.

10-15: Talk to him reasonably if he is not willing to help wreck his place. Break walls, crash windows and cut anyone who will try to intervene.

2. Kill a single powerful monster, like a dragon. Assume it's clever and prepared.

5-10: Go your own way cause you will die horribly if you try. But you are evil so you don't care that much.

15: Hire mercenaries. A lot of mercenaries. Siege engines, alchemical items and all that staff. Preferably be an archer fighter. Chances are good you will still die horribly but you can probably push your chances of success somewhere to 30-40% range.

3. Kill a group of mediocre monsters, like Orcish raiders with a few levels. Assume they're clever and prepared.

5: Die horribly.

10-15: Mercenaries again for meatshields and target oversaturation. Hide your magical items under cloak and be an archer. Kill everyone and loot their bodies. Drink ale with mercs who survive combat.

4. Get inside an enemy's stronghold without the enemy knowing. Assume they have important hostages, or some other hook in them to keep them from just knocking the place over.

5: Probably no luck.

10-15: Find noble rogue from the first task and terrorize him until he will do this work for you. If he dies get your mercs and burn stronghold to the ground - just because you can and you already failed at your main task.

5. Get through a heavily trapped place, like the Tomb of Horrors or a wizard's vault.

5: Nope.

10-15: Get to work. Take you mercs and start raiding villages for slaves and livestock and after that use them to find traps. You can also make bets on who will go through most traps alive or how far the heads will roll.


If no character can do all of these, but a couple can only do 1 or 2, and others can do 8 or 9, that's not invalidating the thought experiment at all. In fact, that would be total vindication.

The only arguments you can make against this little thought experiment are something like the situations are unrepresentative of Pathfinder in a way that favors one class over another, or that Pathfinder is not a game about overcoming challenges.


Jaunt wrote:

If no character can do all of these, but a couple can only do 1 or 2, and others can do 8 or 9, that's not invalidating the thought experiment at all. In fact, that would be total vindication.

The only arguments you can make against this little thought experiment are something like the situations are unrepresentative of Pathfinder in a way that favors one class over another, or that Pathfinder is not a game about overcoming challenges.

Yush. That's pretty much the point. It's a thought experiment though, and a poster above just found some reasonable ways for a fighter to do about half. This is supposed to simulate the game, not characters existing in a vacuum, which gives the martial characters a better shot, in my humble opinion.

So, you're not wrong... but the point is also to see how people think about their class, and how they might solve an issue without resorting purely to numerical abilities or what's written down on the sheet.


Zoolimar wrote:

Fighter, Evil

1. Persuade a local noble to help the party.

5: Take debt. Without diplomacy it will be a big debt and will probably lead to some side-quests if DM wants so.

10-15: Talk to him reasonably if he is not willing to help wreck his place. Break walls, crash windows and cut anyone who will try to intervene.

2. Kill a single powerful monster, like a dragon. Assume it's clever and prepared.

5-10: Go your own way cause you will die horribly if you try. But you are evil so you don't care that much.

15: Hire mercenaries. A lot of mercenaries. Siege engines, alchemical items and all that staff. Preferably be an archer fighter. Chances are good you will still die horribly but you can probably push your chances of success somewhere to 30-40% range.

3. Kill a group of mediocre monsters, like Orcish raiders with a few levels. Assume they're clever and prepared.

5: Die horribly.

10-15: Mercenaries again for meatshields and target oversaturation. Hide your magical items under cloak and be an archer. Kill everyone and loot their bodies. Drink ale with mercs who survive combat.

4. Get inside an enemy's stronghold without the enemy knowing. Assume they have important hostages, or some other hook in them to keep them from just knocking the place over.

5: Probably no luck.

10-15: Find noble rogue from the first task and terrorize him until he will do this work for you. If he dies get your mercs and burn stronghold to the ground - just because you can and you already failed at your main task.

5. Get through a heavily trapped place, like the Tomb of Horrors or a wizard's vault.

5: Nope.

10-15: Get to work. Take you mercs and start raiding villages for slaves and livestock and after that use them to find traps. You can also make bets on who will go through most traps alive or how far the heads will roll.

Awesome! I like the twist of making the fighter evil to allow for some "Flexible morality." It's a nice touch, and a good way to show that alignment and roleplaying can also make a difference in what a character's options are.

Though just to note, a high level LG Paladin may be able to persuade people because he/she is charismatic and world renowned for being on the side of the angels. It's a cool way to reverse your dynamic, and I really like how you're thinking about this.


Sounds pretty much like the Same Game Test.


A wizard or sorc blows all these up pretty handily, I think


Wizard (with extra cheese)

1. Persuade a noble (5. Charm person 10. Dominate person 15. L wish ->quest) (be a crafter and offer him half price items, this works at any level)

2. Kill a BBEG (5 Invis plus wand of SM 2, likely to die 10. Bind many meatshieds, dominate some BDFs, buff your crew and take him down 15. Bind genies and make sims for many wishes. Create sim army and attack. Realize you do not need it when an optimized SOD takes him down in the surprise round before he even acts.)

3. Mooks (5. Fireball + init, summoned or charmed meat shields to keep you safe. 10. See 2 15. See 2 but do nothing yourself)

4. Stealth mission (5 Invis wand and good stealth, capture and charm someone for layout 10. Charm and dominate person for layout, magic jar to get in. 15. Simed up imps for commune to learn everything and then same as 10.

5. Trapped vault (5. Summons, invisibility, dispel magic 10. Lots of minions go first and you learn what is where. 15. See above but more)

The rest later.

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