So I've heard that the Elemental Annihilator is damage focused, but I just don't see how it does more damage then the regular Kineticist. Since I've seen no one else ask this question, it seems I'm missing something obvious here. Could someone go through the EA damage calculations so I can see what it is I missed?
Levels 1, 3, and 5 are the significant early game landmarks.
Regular kineticist:
1) 1d6 + 1 + CON, +1 for point blank shot, average 10.5 damage assuming 20 con, and at +1 to hit.
3) 2d6 + 2 + CON, +1 for point blank shot, +2 for overflow, average 17 damage, +5 to hit assuming BAB 2, +1 from overflow, +2 from feats, 30ft range.
5) 3d6 + 3 + CON, +1 PBS, +2 overflow, +2 deadly aim, 23.5 damage, +5 to hit.
Annihilator: (Extra 2 damage if melee due to +1/2 CON when wielding with two hands)
1) 1d8 + CON, +1 for point blank shot, 10.5 damage, +2 to hit
3) 1d8 + CON, +2 deadly aim, +1 point blank shot, average 12.5, +3 to hit
5) 1d8 + CON, +4 deadly aim, +1 point blank shot, average 14.5, +5 to hit.
Now, clearly the elemental annihilator is doing less damage at the same range than the vanilla kineticist. However, remember that the annihilator has better to-hit at levels 1 and 2, and can always choose to do regular blasts at levels 3-5. Level 6 is where things get a little(lot) bit different.
Annihilator 6) 3d8 + 3(CON) + 12 + 3 = 43.5, +6/+6/+1 to hit
kinetecist 6) 3d6 + 3 + CON + 1 + 4 + 4 = 27.5, +5 to hit
Annihilator 7) 3d8 + 3(CON) + 12 + 3 = 43.5, +7/+7/+2 to hit(rolled twice)
kinetecist 7) 4d6 + 4 + CON + 1 + 4 + 4 = 32, +6 to hit
Annihilator 8) 3d8 + 3(CON) + 18 + 3 + 3(specialization) = 55.5, +7/+7/+2
Now, these numbers are pretty much just approximations made in my head on loose information, but that's the basic gist of it. The annihilator just scales pretty hard with multiple attacks, and the kinetecist just doesn't benefit as much from a belt of con as the annihilator does. Without beneficial items, the annihilator scales much faster. With beneficial items, the annihilator leaves the base kineticist in the dust.
Now, I'm not sure if I like it though, because you lose utility talents, but them's the sacrifices.
Oh, and there's blast training which I forgot to calculate into the annihilator's numbers, but that's even more evidence.
Thanks, this clears up quit a bit.Bbut I don't get why the annihilator gets two attacks at +6 at level 6. Shouldn't it be getting one at +6 and one at +1? Is Two-Weapon Fighting assumed?
Assuming rapid shot, actually. At level 6, and with devestation infusion, he attacks as if with full BaB. So he's +6/+1. Rapid shot adds another max attack at -2 penalty to all attacks, but there are other bonuses and penalties that I was calculating. A TWF annihilator could actually be making 4 attacks by level 8, due to improved two-weapon fighting.
Essentially, the elemental annihilator has higher damage because of multiple attacks, even though his dice don't scale.
Now I understand. I also understand why I didn't. I assumed a damage-focused version of a class that blows things up will, well, "blow things up"er, not turn into a basically melee class, and I didn't think to take feats into account at this scale.
Thanks a bunch.
Now I understand. I also understand why I didn't. I assumed a damage-focused version of a class that blows things up will, well, "blow things up"er, not turn into a basically melee class, and I didn't think to take feats into account at this scale.
Thanks a bunch.
Just think vegeta ki blasts and you're set!
It can just as well be an archery class though. The devastating blasts work with ranged attacks too.
So, when discussing DPR in this system, saying 'it works like archery' is not a bad thing. And if you are working with aether, you could imagine it as a Macross Missile Massacre style attack with dozens of daggers, rather than one big attck with a dropped anvil.
It also retains the ability to throw regular blasts. Which is a rather sweet deal, when you think about the fact that this character can switch between 2 handed vital strikes, TWF, archery, and one big ranged blast at will. Nothing else quite does that.
It means that above anything else- you have options. The one big blast is good when you have to move and the enemy is far, the 2 hander is good when you have to move and the enemy is near, archery when you can full attack and the enemy is far, and TWF when you can full attack and the enemy is in reach.
Also, you get a small amount of infusions to add to the big blast. You probably have enough to at least get one nice blast to toss around (such as an entangling frag for earth)
Oh, I wasn't implying it was a bad thing. It's just that I've played exclusively casters until now, and with that point of view have always thought of the kineticist as a kind of blaster only sorcerer, so the annihilator didn't make much sense.
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Levels 1, 3, and 5 are the significant early game landmarks.
Regular kineticist:
1) 1d6 + 1 + CON, +1 for point blank shot, average 10.5 damage assuming 20 con, and at +1 to hit.
3) 2d6 + 2 + CON, +1 for point blank shot, +2 for overflow, average 17 damage, +5 to hit assuming BAB 2, +1 from overflow, +2 from feats, 30ft range.
5) 3d6 + 3 + CON, +1 PBS, +2 overflow, +2 deadly aim, 23.5 damage, +5 to hit.Annihilator: (Extra 2 damage if melee due to +1/2 CON when wielding with two hands)
1) 1d8 + CON, +1 for point blank shot, 10.5 damage, +2 to hit
3) 1d8 + CON, +2 deadly aim, +1 point blank shot, average 12.5, +3 to hit
5) 1d8 + CON, +4 deadly aim, +1 point blank shot, average 14.5, +5 to hit.Now, clearly the elemental annihilator is doing less damage at the same range than the vanilla kineticist. However, remember that the annihilator has better to-hit at levels 1 and 2, and can always choose to do regular blasts at levels 3-5. Level 6 is where things get a little(lot) bit different.
Annihilator 6) 3d8 + 3(CON) + 12 + 3 = 43.5, +6/+6/+1 to hit
kinetecist 6) 3d6 + 3 + CON + 1 + 4 + 4 = 27.5, +5 to hit
Annihilator 7) 3d8 + 3(CON) + 12 + 3 = 43.5, +7/+7/+2 to hit(rolled twice)
kinetecist 7) 4d6 + 4 + CON + 1 + 4 + 4 = 32, +6 to hit
Annihilator 8) 3d8 + 3(CON) + 18 + 3 + 3(specialization) = 55.5, +7/+7/+2Now, these numbers are pretty much just approximations made in my head on loose information, but that's the basic gist of it. The annihilator just scales pretty hard with multiple attacks, and the kinetecist just doesn't benefit as much from a belt of con as the annihilator does. Without beneficial items, the annihilator scales much faster. With beneficial items, the annihilator leaves the base kineticist in the dust.
Now, I'm not sure if I like it though, because you lose utility talents, but them's the sacrifices.
Oh, and there's blast training which I forgot to calculate into the annihilator's numbers, but that's even more evidence.
Hm... So, what path is optimal? Two handed? two weapon? archery? (though there is only one additional attack from rapid shot, unlike twf). And is dip into brawler (mutagenic mauler) + bloodrager (with mad magic feat) worth it? Also i thought about dropping kinetist after lvl6 when he gets fullattack and go into bloodrager at last levels. Is it nice idea (planning on earth kineti?
Hm... So, what path is optimal? Two handed? two weapon? archery? (though there is only one additional attack from rapid shot, unlike twf). And is dip into brawler (mutagenic mauler) + bloodrager (with mad magic feat) worth it? Also i thought about dropping kinetist after lvl6 when he gets fullattack and go into bloodrager at last levels. Is it nice idea (planning on earth kineti?
But isn't archery full stat/damage boosting feat damage?
The offhand attacks of the blast would get 1/2 con and 1/2 power attack. The archery gets 1 con/1 deadly aim. So less shots might not be as immediately a problem as it seems. Plus, the obvious fact that archery can be done at range, and we all know that archery is strong in this system due to its ease of full attacks. Also, they can get clustershots (since I am unsure how this archetype deals with DR other than 'just plink out the regular kineticist blast)
I think dropping kineticist is actually rather poor. Because after level 6, your options actually start opening up. You start getting some infusion options. The first can come if you pick the same element for the bonus infusion. And then at level 11, you start getting more 'normal' infusions. You can actually start building up the regular kineticist blasts (just treat it as maneuvers, really).
Plus, I am pretty sure DR/adamantine doesn't stack with blood rager DR. And you do get bonus feats from a rather wide pool (I think I can actually get both TWF and archery together by level 10).
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Hm... So, what path is optimal? Two handed? two weapon? archery? (though there is only one additional attack from rapid shot, unlike twf). And is dip into brawler (mutagenic mauler) + bloodrager (with mad magic feat) worth it? Also i thought about dropping kinetist after lvl6 when he gets fullattack and go into bloodrager at last levels. Is it nice idea (planning on earth kineti?But isn't archery full stat/damage boosting feat damage?
The offhand attacks of the blast would get 1/2 con and 1/2 power attack. The archery gets 1 con/1 deadly aim. So less shots might not be as immediately a problem as it seems. Plus, the obvious fact that archery can be done at range, and we all know that archery is strong in this system due to its ease of full attacks. Also, they can get clustershots (since I am unsure how this archetype deals with DR other than 'just plink out the regular kineticist blast)
For the elemental annihilator's off-hand attacks with Two-Weapon Fighting, she adds half her Constitution modifier to the damage (increasing to her full Constitution modifier if she has Double Slice)
That`s why i consider twf more damaging.
Yea, dr not stacking (like any dr), but is dip good option? mutagen+bloodrage getting you +8 to con, +2 willsaves, minidisrupting (arcane bloodline first ability), which can be awesome in "difficult" situations, i guess.
What is the point of Elemental Annihilator (Archetype)?
It seems very bad to me. Why not just make a fighter with a longsword?
Is it just the optional versatility of being able to use ranged and melee?Maybe I don't understand how this works but it looks like Elemental Annihilator (Archetype) damage never scales and they cannot use any other Form or Substance infusions if they use Flurry of Devastation which looks like it would be the only reason to play an EA in the 1st place.
Can anyone explain the benefit to me? Is it just flavor and the concept of being able to RP the character? Mechanically I don't get it.
How is it different from a long sword?
Well, it is a long sword that suddenly turns into two long swords to do TWF, and then into a half dozen longswords to shoot out as ranged attacks. And all of that benefits from weapon focus (longsword).
The primary advantage here is that it is a perfect switch hitter. All of its attacks are with the blast, and the blast and do both melee and ranged attacks. It also benefits from all specific feats such at weapon focus on all attacks. Useful wtih weapon expertise for more damage with archery.
Add that with getting your stat bonus and other bonuses on multiple hits, and you get more damage than regular kineticist (static damage is usualyl just better than getting more damage dice). And you benefit over the regular melee builds, since you get con to damage (thus more health), cutting out str naturally. And you keep the defensive talent, so you might have double the DR of a barbarian.
Also, there is a crtical change that happens at level 7, and continues to grow at level 11 and on. You can get infusions for your basic blast. Sure, 3/4 BAB... but you can infusion to get the usual kineticist spell like effects. So a high level annihilator can spam the same bread and butter blast as a regular kineticist, but they can also switch to the high damage build. An earth user could still do a grappling/deadly earth blast.
Your standard earth annhilator should be have the option to spam entangling blasts at level 8 (When the burn is no longer an issue), allowing you an option when you have to make a move action.
So at mid levels, when the linear fighter/quadratic wizard equation tips the scales.... you start to be able to use a limited form of magic too. Not a great bearth... but it can have great battle effects and more than keep your relevant.