Can a Arcanist use Dimensional Slide exploit whyl a monk has him in a grapple?

[Johnny_Devo]

For a little bit of clarification, "withdraw" is an action in the list of actions under the heading of available "full round actions", and "move" is another unique action under the list of available "move actions". Given they specifically call out "withdraw", i think the easiest assumption is they are also specifically calling out "move".

[Dallium]

I'm a big believer in the notion that all rules fall into two categories:

1) There is an objectively correct ruling based on the writing, which people may argue against on the basis of intent, misunderstandings of the rules and/or english, or developer input. (This covers about 90% of the threads that actually spawn a discussion here, IMO)

and

2) Legitimately ambiguous rules that could really go either way.

This is one of the rare scenario where the rule is unclear enough that we can't make a definitive statement. The ability says right in the middle you have to step into the crack. You can't just discount that statement as fluff, it's right in the middle of the language of the ability. On the other hand, if the character was trapped alone in a 5ft by 5ft cell, I don't think anyone would say they couldn't use this ability to escape, despite not having enough room to actually move 5ft.

In this case, it's handy to have someone who is actually on the design team to weigh in and clarify. In this scenario, Mark's opinion is worth more than most people's.

[GM 7thGate]

I would most definitely rule it can't escape a grapple. It uses 5 feet of your move action to use it; how exactly do you intend to do that by using a move action that doesn't grant at least 5 feet of movement?

[Scott Wilhelm]

Casual Viking wrote:

"This counts as 5 feet of movement" can be read multiple ways, but reading it context, there is no doubt what the correct reading is. Don't be dishonest.

Don't insult people. I agree with you. It counts as movement. It takes a Move Action, and it says you are stepping through the crack.

Using the Dimensional Slide ability really seems to be movement such as being grappled prevents.

But don't accuse people of being dishonest. It comes across as being uncivil.

[Cthulhudrew]

Isn't the more important question:

Can the Arcanist use Dimensional Slide with a Succubus in a Grapple?

[Johnny_Devo]

Cthulhudrew wrote:

Isn't the more important question:

Can the Arcanist use Dimensional Slide with a Succubus in a Grapple?

Yes, but only if the succubus initiates it. I do believe the concept has been illustrated in detail.

[Johnny_Devo]

I'm not at work right now, so I can finally dump my analysis into this thread with a proper keyboard, so here it goes. First, quoting the ability itself for reference.

Quote:

Dimensional Slide (Su): The arcanist can expend 1 point from her arcane reservoir to create a dimensional crack that she can step through to reach another location. This ability is used as part of a move action or withdraw action, allowing her to move up to 10 feet per arcanist level to any location she can see. This counts as 5 feet of movement. She can only use this ability once per round. She does not provoke attacks of opportunity when moving in this way, but any other movement she attempts as part of her move action provokes as normal.

And for relevance, quoting the first part of dimension door, a spell that is pretty well understood to actually allow you to escape a grapple. Note that the text after this quote simply describes what you can bring with you and what happens if you find yourself in solid rock or something.

Quote:

You instantly transfer yourself from your current location to any other spot within range. You always arrive at exactly the spot desired - whether by simply visualizing the area or by stating direction. After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn.

Now, to pick it apart piece by piece.

First, the first part of each ability are different enough by themselves.

dimension door wrote:

You instantly transfer yourself from your current location to any other spot within range.

dimensional slide wrote:

create a dimensional crack that she can step through to reach another location.

Emphasis mine.

Additionally, each ability describes how the teleportation happens.

dimension door wrote:

You always arrive at exactly the spot desired - whether by simply visualizing the area or by stating direction.

dimensional slide wrote:

This ability is used as part of a move action or withdraw action, allowing her to move up to 10 feet per arcanist level to any location she can see. This counts as 5 feet of movement.

Dimension door just says it happens. Dimension slide says you do it as part of another action. Exactly two actions are named. "Move" and "withdraw". It's not saying "draw a weapon" action that happens to have a cost of "move action", it's saying "Move action" or "withdraw action". It's even telling you that the specific movement found within this ability counts as 5 feet of movement for the move/withdraw action that you're using. Drawing a blade has no movement involved that you could have something "count as 5 feet of movement". Indeed, I'm reading this ability with very strict parameters, and I see pretty much zero wiggle room to try and say that its its own move action. When saying "as part of", you're amending an existing action with this ability, and it even very kindly tells you exactly what two actions you can paste this action onto.

dimensional slide wrote:

She does not provoke attacks of opportunity when moving in this way, but any other movement she attempts as part of her move action provokes as normal.

Additional language that is very clearly spelling out for you that you're using a move action that involves movement, which is disallowed by grappling rules.

So yeah, I'm convinced that the dev is right on this one. I see zero wiggle room, because every post I've seen in support of using it to escape the grapple is ignoring some kind of rules element in the text.

Hell, I'm even more convinced of this than I am of fox shape + racial heritage, because this seems clearly both RAW and RAI to me.

[BretI]

Having read through the whole thread, at this point unless an FAQ supersedes it, I will not allow someone to escape a grapple with Dimensional Slide.

I will take the interpretation that when they say "move action" they mean specifically mean "move" that is one of the move action options.

I think that there will be some table variation, but now suspect many will go with the more obvious interpretation.

[Chris Lambertz]

Removed a series of posts. Guys, please keep rules questions threads concerning the question actually being asked. A debate on the general FAQ process, our designers, and designer comments really doesn't belong in individual question threads.

[vorpaljesus]

STEP THROUGH, bruh. How you gon step through when you can't STEP?

[Crimeo]

vorpaljesus wrote:

STEP THROUGH, bruh. How you gon step through when you can't STEP?

Because you created a crack into an open space first, and now you have a place to step into where you didn't before in normal grapple.

[BretI]

Crimeo wrote:

vorpaljesus wrote:

STEP THROUGH, bruh. How you gon step through when you can't STEP?

Because you created a crack into an open space first, and now you have a place to step into where you didn't before in normal grapple.

The normal grapple prevents movement because you are held in some sort of lock. It is a precursor to the pinned condition.

An example from wrestling.

It isn't a matter of not having an open space to move to. It is that you can't move.

[CampinCarl9127]

Oh good, you have a new place to step into.

Now let's just take that step.

Oh wait, grappling prevents that.

[Crimeo]

Quote:

The normal grapple prevents movement because you are held in some sort of lock.

Which you aren't anymore once you create a crack to another dimension leaving an open pathway elsewhere, the creation of which which happens PRIOR to stepping into that crack.

It's really no different from dimension door, logically. The only difference is the distance along the astral plane or whatever other dimension you have to travel (near zero versus 5 feet), but that difference is only relevant AFTER the pathway is open, and within a space that the grapple doesn't exist, so it's not really a relevant distinction for the grapple.

If you want to say you cannot move from that spot period as long as you are "grappled", even when grappling doesn't make sense anymore, like with a big open dimensional crack, magical tunnel, the grappler's arms have been disintegrated, etc., then okay, go for it, but you'd have to also disallow dimension door and various other things by the same logic.

Quote:

An example from wrestling.

Yes, now draw a crack to another dimension between the grappler's arms and the grappled guy, and he will just slip right out easily, because there will be an open space now eliminating the inability to move. Binding a person doesn't make any sense anymore if there's an opening between them and the bindings. You are effectively no longer actually restricted, just like with dimension door.

(Also that picture is much more pinned than grappled, grappled still allows you to get stuff out of pouches, cast spells, draw weapons, etc. If you are pinned and helpless like this, then you couldn't do any move action by which to trigger the crack)

[Johnny_Devo]

Crimeo wrote:

Quote:

The normal grapple prevents movement because you are held in some sort of lock.

Which you aren't anymore once you create a crack to another dimension leaving an open pathway elsewhere, the creation of which which happens PRIOR to stepping into that crack.

It's really no different from dimension door, logically. The only difference is the distance along the astral plane or whatever other dimension you have to travel (near zero versus 5 feet), but that difference is only relevant AFTER the pathway is open, and within a space that the grapple doesn't exist, so it's not really a relevant distinction for the grapple.

Dimension door instantly teleports you and whatever you choose with you. A creature grappling you, even if they're willing, is not a creature you have chosen to bring with you, thus dimension door leaves them where they were. The entire function is instant, a snap of the fingers and a word of power, and the spell takes effect. You're not stepping into the door, even if that's the title of the spell. An important note is that mythic dimension door actually does work differently, but it spells that out for you.

Dimensional slide is different. It creates a crack in space... and you have to step through it. Thing is, Mr Grappling Monk here still has you in a hold that you haven't escaped yet. You try to put yourself in that door, and the grappler says "nope. That ain't happening. You get back here".

Because you can't move. It says it right there in the description of the grapple condition:

Quote:

Grappled creatures cannot move

And it says in several places in dimensional slide:

Quote:

... she can step through ... part of a move action or withdraw action ... move up to 10 feet per arcanist level ... counts as 5 feet of movement ... when moving in this way ... other movement ... her move action ...

Literally almost half the text is talking about moving.

I really don't see how you think your end of the argument is holding water.

[Crimeo]

Quote:

Now let's just take that step.

Oh wait, grappling prevents that.

Grapple prevents movement of the base movement sort where you move to other squares, not all move actions. Taking a step into a magical portal is not a normal move action categorized like walking down a street.

OR if you choose to interpret it as "ALL movement of any sort in a colloquial sense" then okay, you logically then also don't get to cast spells, pour grease, draw weapons or items, attack, etc.

...Except that you CAN explicitly attack and cast spells with materials prepared already, as per the text of grappled, so we already know for sure they are not referring to all movement of any sort colloquially, and it must mean only actual technical moves. A category of which stepping into magical portals is not a member.

So neither technically nor common sense-wise does this second interpretation work.

[Nicos]

The dev have clarified the rule, and the clarification doesn't contradict another rule nor does it create additional problems, there is no need to argue this anymore.

[Crimeo]

Quote:

Dimension door instantly teleports you and whatever you choose with you.

So what? You moved to a new location. If we are going to go around claiming that ANYTHING that can be colloquially described as moving, even if not a formal move (as in the technical term) is prevented by grapple, then that is prevented too.

OR if we are going to only claim that technical moves are prevented, then since neither dimension door nor stepping into a dimensional crack are technical moves, both are allowed.

Take your pick, but neither choice leads to dimension door being OK and dimensional slide not being OK. (Also, the colloquial choice conflicts with various bits of text in the grapple description, see above post of mine)

Quote:

Literally almost half the text is talking about moving.

Stepping through is the only thing that matters. After that, you're in another dimension, and clearly are not grappled at all anymore since the grappler is still in the material plane, so then proceeding to move some number of feet is irrelevant to the grapple. The stepping is all that matters, and stepping is not a "move" or a "move action" in any technical sense. Only in a colloquial sense, which if you invoke, leads to all sorts of problems and contradictions, such as "why am I allowed to still draw a sword then, since that's also colloquially moving?"

You don't get to just inconsistently say "Oh, use colloquial meaning in this one particular case, but all other times, use technical meaning". Pick one and stick with it.

[Nocte ex Mortis]

Dimension Door is instantaneous teleportation that requires no effort to pass through an open crack in space/time to do so. You just vanish. Dimensional Slide specifically calls out you having to step through, or move through, said crack. Grapple means you can't move. This is apples and oranges.

[CampinCarl9127]

Your strawman arguments never cease to amaze me. There is a difference between moving and move actions. It's pretty obvious. To say anything else is just being incindiery.

The name of the ability is irrelevant. Read the descriptions. Dimension door is just short range teleportation that does not create a door or opening in any way. The name of the spell is misleading. Do not compare it to the ability at hand, because they are different.

To use this ability you are required to spend 5 feet of movement. Since you cannot move (in the sense of covering distance, not any move action) you cannot expend 5 feet of movement to step through the portal opened.

I'm not sure why this conversation is still going on. For once we got w developer to weigh in and yet that's still not good enough. I'm not even mad at them anymore, I understand why they don't reply anymore.

[Johnny_Devo]

First of all, if you're arguing that you're stepping through the portal, you don't even go all through it at once. By this line of reasoning, you're stepping through the portal, but the guy behind you still has a grip on your wrist. Now you're halfway through the portal, and the guy still has a grip on your wrist.

Aside from that, do not take a scalpel to my argument and then consider that single possibly colloquial argument to be my entire point. Aside from "step through", which goes against your network of "possibly" and "might be", The technical term I'm using, is what it literally says right there in the ability. "As part of a move action".

I will now list to you every single move action in the game normally available to every character.

Move
Direct or Redirect a spell
Draw or Sheathe a weapon
Manipulate an item
Mount/Dismount a steed
Ready or drop a shield
Stand up

Some abilities grant you a new ability with a cost of "move action". Those abilities, without fail, state "As a move action". This ability, conversely, states "as part of a move action", which in context obviously is referring specifically to the "move" action, but even out of context we can look at every single one of these 7 move actions.

Now, remember that this dimension slide costs 5 feet of movement out of your move action. Exactly one move action out of these 7 actions involve moving your speed. The "Move" action.

And finally, look back again to grapple. "Grappled creatures cannot move".

Bam. Period. End of story. You need to move to benefit from dimensional slide, and grapple says you cannot move. It does not matter what flavor you put on it, it doesn't matter what you think you can do to put a portal between you and the grappler, the end game here is that you need to move to use it and grappling says you cannot move. It's really quite simple.

[Crimeo]

Quote:

Dimensional Slide specifically calls out you having to step through, or move through, said crack.

Which is no more of a technical movement than instantaneous teleportation is.

And which is just as much of a colloquial movement as instantaneous teleportation is.

Quote:

Dimension door is just short range teleportation that does not create a door or opening in any way

Agreed, but creating doors and openings is not relevant to anything in terms of technical moves or move actions, so who cares about this distinction?

Quote:

To use this ability you are required to spend 5 feet of movement.

Once inside of another dimension, yes. At that point, the grapple doesn't exist anymore, because you're in a different dimension from your grappler...

[shroudb]

Crimeo wrote:

Once inside of another dimension, yes. At that point, the grapple doesn't exist anymore, because you're in a different dimension from your grappler...

that last part is pure conjecture on your part.

weare in the rules forums.

the rules are clear:

in order to teleport you need to spend 5ft movement.

while grappled you cannot spend those 5ft

thus you cannot teleport.

That is the undeniable RAW regardless of whatever else.

[Crimeo]

Quote:

that last part is pure conjecture on your part.

Yes, this isn't the only way to interpret it, but it's a POSSIBLE way to interpret it.

To clarify: I'm not suggesting that it must be allowed by RAW, so much as I am suggesting that it isn't necessarily not allowed by RAW. One may or may not allow it, with either choice being equally RAW-consistent.

(And then on top of that I happen to think one choice is sillier common sense wise, but that's a separate bit)

Quote:

in order to teleport you need to spend 5ft movement.

It does not say that. It says the ability counts as 5 feet, which is not the same thing as requiring 5 feet of normal movement as a prerequisite.

As a simple analogy, imagine that I am standing at the bottom of a slick 5x5 well, with nowhere I can possibly move normally by walking. If I have a fly speed, I can still fly out of the well, though. The flight counts as movement, yet does NOT imply that I needed to be able to move 5 ft normally (walking) in order to take the flying action, as some sort of prerequisite.

X being a consequence of Y does not necessarily imply that X is a prerequisite for Y.

[Johnny_Devo]

Crimeo wrote:

Quote:

that last part is pure conjecture on your part.

Yes, this isn't the only way to interpret it, but it's a POSSIBLE way to interpret it.

To clarify: I'm not suggesting that it must be allowed by RAW, so much as I am suggesting that it isn't necessarily not allowed by RAW. One may or may not allow it, with either choice being equally RAW-consistent.

(And then on top of that I happen to think one choice is sillier common sense wise, but that's a separate bit)

Quote:

in order to teleport you need to spend 5ft movement.

It does not say that. It says the ability counts as 5 feet, which is not the same thing as requiring 5 feet of normal movement as a prerequisite.

As a simple analogy, imagine that I am standing at the bottom of a slick 5x5 well, with nowhere I can possibly move normally by walking. If I have a fly speed, I can still fly out of the well, though. The flight counts as movement, yet does NOT imply that I needed to be able to move 5 ft normally (walking) in order to take the flying action, as some sort of prerequisite.

X being a consequence of Y does not necessarily imply that X is a prerequisite for Y.

Okay, so lets look at this counting as 5 feet of movement.

Does directing or redirecting a spell involve feet of movement? No? Then you cannot dimensional slide attached to directing or redirecting a spell.
Does drawing or sheathing a sword involve feet of movement? No? Then you cannot dimensional slide attached to drawing a sword.
Does manipulating an item involve feet of movement? No.
Does mounting/dismounting a steed involve feet of movement? No.
Does readying or dropping a shield involve feet of movement? No.
Does standing up involve feet of movement? No.

Thus, you're left with the move action. Which under the rules of grapple, you can't do.

It's a very simple limitation with no listed exceptions. It's a very simple thing that dimensional slide says you need to do it as part of a move action, and exactly every difference is stated in the ability. Nowhere in the ability does it say "as part of a move action, even when you're grappled", therefore you still follow normal rules when grappled. That rule is "you cannot move".

[Crimeo]

Quote:

Does drawing or sheathing a sword involve feet of movement? No? Then you cannot dimensional slide attached to drawing a sword.

Why? Where are you getting this idea from?

It says you can do it as part of a move action. Not "as part of a move action that already involves at least 5 feet of movement" Drawing is a move action, so it qualifies, not any more complicated than that.

Similarly, with a BAB of at least +1, you can draw a weapon as part of a move action. This obviously doesn't mean "only as part of a move action that ALREADY involves drawing a weapon" (i.e. only being able to draw two weapons at a time). It just means added to any old move action. You can dash 30 feet and draw a sword while you do so, for example. It didn't need to already have a draw involved. Just like dimensional slide adding what counts as 5ft doesn't require 5ft to already have been part of the relevant move action.

[Johnny_Devo]

Crimeo wrote:

Quote:

Does drawing or sheathing a sword involve feet of movement? No? Then you cannot dimensional slide attached to drawing a sword.

Why? Where are you getting this idea from?

It says you can do it as part of a move action. Not "as part of a move action that already involves at least 5 feet of movement" Drawing is a move action, so it qualifies, not any more complicated than that.

Okay, so you draw your sword, and as part of that move action a portal opens up right next to you. Nothing happens because you don't have 5 feet of movement to spend to step into the portal.

It says right there in the ability. "This counts as 5 feet of movement". How can you possibly spend feet of movement out of a move action that does not have it?

EDIT:

Quote:

Similarly, with a BAB of at least +1, you can draw a weapon as part of a move action. This obviously doesn't mean "only as part of a move action that ALREADY involves drawing a weapon" (i.e. only being able to draw two weapons at a time). It just means added to any old move action. You can dash 30 feet and draw a sword while you do so, for example. It didn't need to already have a draw involved. Just like dimensional slide adding what counts as 5ft doesn't require 5ft to already have been part of the relevant move action

Actual text which you conveniently left out is that it says "as part of a regular move" Again, clearly referencing the "move" action. It's saying that you can draw the weapon as part of a move action used to move, as a piggy-back exception to the fact that it normally is its own move action.

[Jiggy]

Crimeo wrote:

Quote:

Does drawing or sheathing a sword involve feet of movement? No? Then you cannot dimensional slide attached to drawing a sword.

Why? Where are you getting this idea from?

It says you can do it as part of a move action. Not "as part of a move action that already involves at least 5 feet of movement" Drawing is a move action, so it qualifies, not any more complicated than that.

Similarly, with a BAB of at least +1, you can draw a weapon as part of a move action. This obviously doesn't mean "only as part of a move action that ALREADY involves drawing a weapon" (i.e. only being able to draw two weapons at a time). It just means added to any old move action. You can dash 30 feet and draw a sword while you do so, for example. It didn't need to already have a draw involved. Just like dimensional slide adding what counts as 5ft doesn't require 5ft to already have been part of the relevant move action.

Core Rulebook, Combat chapter, Draw or Sheathe a Weapon wrote:

If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move.

[Crimeo]

Quote:

Okay, so you draw your sword, and as part of that move action a portal opens up right next to you. Nothing happens because you don't have 5 feet of movement to spend to step into the portal.

Yes I do, I still have my full 30 feet of move because I haven't moved any squares this turn.

I draw my sword, it makes a portal next to me, I step into the portal (which is not a "move" by any rules thus not prevented by grapple technically, nor would it be restricted by common sense, since the grappler's arms aren't blocking the other dimension), then I use 5 of my available 30ft to move within the other dimension where there exists no grapple, and I pop out 10 ft away back into the material plane.

Quote:

How can you possibly spend feet of movement out of a move action that does not have it?

My base 30 ft land speed is just a thing that is part of my character, even when I'm not moving. RACES have land speeds, individual unique ACTIONS don't have land speeds. When anything requires walking, I can do it by default at my speed of 30ft that I've had all along.

[Johnny_Devo]

Crimeo wrote:

Quote:

Okay, so you draw your sword, and as part of that move action a portal opens up right next to you. Nothing happens because you don't have 5 feet of movement to spend to step into the portal.

Yes I do, I still have my full 30 feet of move because I haven't moved any squares this turn.

I draw my sword, it makes a portal next to me, I step into the portal (which is not a "move" by any rules thus not prevented by grapple technically, nor would it be restricted by common sense, since the grappler's arms aren't blocking the other dimension), then I use 5 of my available 30ft to move within the other dimension where there exists no grapple, and I pop out 10 ft away back into the material plane.

You use 5 of your available 30ft of movement... with what action? You just used your move action to draw a sword and create a portal. How are you going to move through it?

[Crimeo]

Quote:

If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move.

Okay, fine, so that one specifies a regular move. Dimensional slide doesn't specify that.

My point in bringing it up still stands: Drawing a sword clearly doesn't require being added to a move action that already involved drawing a sword (since regular moves CAN'T even involve that normally). The restrictions are whatever it lists as restrictions, nothing more nothing less. For adding a draw, the restriction is it being a regular move, period. For dimensional slide, the restriction is it being some move action, period.

Quote:

You use 5 of your available 30ft of movement... with what action? You just used your move action to draw a sword and create a portal. How are you going to move through it?

I DIDN'T use my whole action. Normally I would, but dimensional slide specifies that I am to tack on some extra stuff to a normal move action, for the cost of an arcane reservoir point.

One of those extra things I am to tack on is walking , so the move action now involves walking. Specific (text of slide) > General (normal lack of moving in a sword draw)

[Jiggy]

Crimeo wrote:

Quote:

How can you possibly spend feet of movement out of a move action that does not have it?

My base 30 ft land speed is just a thing that is part of my character, even when I'm not moving. RACES have land speeds, individual unique ACTIONS don't have land speeds. When anything requires walking, I can do it by default at my speed of 30ft that I've had all along.

So you think Dimensional Slide costs 5ft of your base land speed? Ouch. That's costly.

[Crimeo]

Jiggy wrote:

Crimeo wrote:

Quote:

How can you possibly spend feet of movement out of a move action that does not have it?

My base 30 ft land speed is just a thing that is part of my character, even when I'm not moving. RACES have land speeds, individual unique ACTIONS don't have land speeds. When anything requires walking, I can do it by default at my speed of 30ft that I've had all along.

So you think Dimensional Slide costs 5ft of your base land speed? Ouch. That's costly.

No it "counts as 5 feet of movement", not "costs 5 feet of your base land speed", what are you talking about? These would be entirely different lines of text.

[Johnny_Devo]

Okay, I'm giving up. You're clearly determined to read exactly what you want out of the ability. Just talk to your DM and be sure to give him all information before you make him make a decision.

[Jiggy]

Crimeo wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

Crimeo wrote:

Quote:

How can you possibly spend feet of movement out of a move action that does not have it?

My base 30 ft land speed is just a thing that is part of my character, even when I'm not moving. RACES have land speeds, individual unique ACTIONS don't have land speeds. When anything requires walking, I can do it by default at my speed of 30ft that I've had all along.

So you think Dimensional Slide costs 5ft of your base land speed? Ouch. That's costly.

No it "counts as 5 feet of movement", not "costs 5 feet of your base land speed", what are you talking about? These would be entirely different lines of text.

He told you that if you don't use an action that grants a number of feet of movement, then you have no movement to spend on DSlide.

You said that you do have movement available to spend on DSlide, because it's attached to your race rather than to your choice of actions; you said that's what your racial land speed is.

You replied to a question about what movement you had available to spend on DSlide by referencing your racial land speed.

That is what you said.

[James Risner]

Crimeo wrote:

It does not say that.

You don't think it says that, but a lot of people do. At best we are at table variance. I'd take issue if any table I'm playing played this rule your way.

[wraithstrike]

I think the intent is to actually move as a requirement. I also suggest everyone press the FAQ button so that it can be added in the que.

[Crimeo]

Quote:

you said that's what your racial land speed is.

I'm not saying my racial land speed IS EQUAL to 30 feet of movement... One is an ability, one is an application/realization of an ability. Nor is my ability to play a game of chess EQUAL to a chess game... one is an ability, one is an application of it.

If somebody says "You need to play chess to open this door" my ability to play chess kicks in and allows me to do so.

If somebody says "You need to walk 5 feet within this action" my ability to walk 5 feet within an action involving walking kicks in and allows me to do so.

Quote:

He told you that if you don't use an action that grants a number of feet of movement

I don't interpret it as having to be "granted" movement. I always have an innate ability to move up to 30 feet in any action that involves movement.

If you do interpret having to be "granted" movement though, then okay, whatever, just for sake of argument, let's go with that: Worst case scenario, I burn my 5 foot step, which says I can move 5 feet in any round when I don't perform any other kind of movement. And this has been established before as being able to interject in between distinct phases of another action, such as in between iterative attacks in a full attack. Ta da! I am "granted" 5 feet and then use it.

Quote:

You don't think it says that, but a lot of people do. At best we are at table variance. I'd take issue if any table I'm playing played this rule your way.

I may be wrong, you may be wrong, in some cases two interpretations can be equally right or wrong. But never do mere popular vote numbers determine what is logical or not either way.