Hello everyone,
One of the players and our DM started arguing about shields, spiked shields and the bashing property. I've been looking around for a RAW answer, but I only managed to get more confused. So, I'm coming to you looking for your knowledge and your experienced words.
For start, the shield and and the spiked shield are treades as diferent weapons? Seeing the weapon table i gess yes, but i haven't seent it said anywhere else on the books.
For second, the bashing special ability:
A shield with this special ability is designed to perform a shield bash. A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a bashing weapon of two size categories larger (a Medium light shield thus deals 1d6 points of damage and a Medium heavy shield deals 1d8 points of damage). The shield acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash. Only light and heavy shields can have this ability.
I've seen a lot of people saying that Spiked and Bashing Stacks but, reading the bold part, it seems to not even be possible enchanting the spiked shield with it. ¿Am I missing something or it was changed in any moment before the posts i've read?
And the last question, I'm using the light shield description but, heavy and both spiked versions say the same (in the part i'm interested on)
You can bash an opponent with a light shield. See “shield, light” on Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a light shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a light shield as a light weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its Armor Class bonus until your next turn. An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
So, would us be able to have +10/+10 shield? (for example +5 Heavy fortification / +5 viciuos dancing Shield) [I've used random enchantments, so only see if it's possible not if it's useful]
If, it's possible, augmenting a +1 shield to +1/+1 shield will cost 2.000gp or is it calculated in other way?
Thanks for your time,
Okryn
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Bashing does not stack with Shield Spikes.
For determining price, you only pay the masterwork cost (150gp) once, as it's one item. Beyond that you pay for each individual weapon or shield enhancement separately.
A +1 Light Shield (+1000gp) gives +2 AC
A +1 Light Shield (+2000gp) is a magical weapon
A +1/+1 Light Shield (+3000) does both
Wouldn't you pay the higher MW price if you want it to work as a weapon +1?
yes
Even though some types of armor and shields can be used as weapons, you can't create a masterwork version of such an item that confers an enhancement bonus on attack rolls. However, you can create masterwork armor spikes and shield spikes, which do confer their enhancement bonus on attack rolls to attacks made with the spikes.
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Bashing does not stack with Shield Spikes.
For determining price, you only pay the masterwork cost (150gp) once, as it's one item. Beyond that you pay for each individual weapon or shield enhancement separately.
A +1 Light Shield (+1000gp) gives +2 AC
A +1 Light Shield (+2000gp) is a magical weapon
A +1/+1 Light Shield (+3000) does both
This is perhaps the only case that the FAQ doesn't definitively answer as shield spikes are their own weapon with their own entry. Now their entry is "one size larger than the shield they're attached to". But does that mean that shield spikes have a size-increasing effect or not?
This is perhaps the only case that the FAQ doesn't definitively answer as shield spikes are their own weapon with their own entry. Now their entry is "one size larger than the shield they're attached to". But does that mean that shield spikes have a size-increasing effect or not?Bashing does not stack with Shield Spikes.
For determining price, you only pay the masterwork cost (150gp) once, as it's one item. Beyond that you pay for each individual weapon or shield enhancement separately.
A +1 Light Shield (+1000gp) gives +2 AC
A +1 Light Shield (+2000gp) is a magical weapon
A +1/+1 Light Shield (+3000) does both
The thing is "appears on the weapon table" is not actually a good test for "is a weapon with separate existence". See Gauntlets.
Also, text trumps table.
Even though some types of armor and shields can be used as weapons, you can't create a masterwork version of such an item that confers an enhancement bonus on attack rolls. However, you can create masterwork armor spikes and shield spikes, which do confer their enhancement bonus on attack rolls to attacks made with the spikes.
The key word here is 'can', and the fact that this contradicts prior notes that 'spikes' are not separate items on shields, but ARE on armor spikes.
I.e. it's not 'spikes on a shield', it's a 'spiked shield', which would use the armor rules, while 'armor spikes' use the weapon rules.
In any event, you don't 'need' to make a spiked shield a masterwork weapon, which saves you +100 gp. Feel rich?
==Aelryinth
Thank you su much for the quick response!
Bashing does not stack with Shield Spikes.
Now I feel blind, because I've been looking more than half an hour in FAQs... Thanks for helping!
I've been looking another enacements for shields (Arrow Catching, Blinding, Clangorous, Ramming...) and the bashing it's the only one that specify "Only light and heavy shields can have this ability". This make me feel that light shield, heavy shield, light spiked shield and heavy spiked shield are 4 different objects. I haven't seen anywhere stipulate shields (heavy and light) and spiked shields (heavy and light) being the same object. [I've never been interested on shields, so maybe I'm missing some basic knowledge].
Stacking or not (from FAQs seems a "no"), if they aren't the same object an spiked shield can't be enchanted with the bashing special ability at all because of "Only light and heavy shields can have this ability" part. Then, the first question, has gone to a more important place, are the shield and the spiked shield treated as different objects?
My mind it's about to blow up.
Another point,
A +1 Light Shield (+1000gp) gives +2 AC
A +1 Light Shield (+2000gp) is a magical weapon
A +1/+1 Light Shield (+3000) does both
Thanks againg for the help! Then, with the right amount of gold, we are able to get a "+10"/"+10" Shield.
Finally, I haven't thought in masterworking the shield in two different ways.
Even though some types of armor and shields can be used as weapons, you can't create a masterwork version of such an item that confers an enhancement bonus on attack rolls. However, you can create masterwork armor spikes and shield spikes, which do confer their enhancement bonus on attack rolls to attacks made with the spikes.
The key word here is 'can', and the fact that this contradicts prior notes that 'spikes' are not separate items on shields, but ARE on armor spikes.
I.e. it's not 'spikes on a shield', it's a 'spiked shield', which would use the armor rules, while 'armor spikes' use the weapon rules.
In any event, you don't 'need' to make a spiked shield a masterwork weapon, which saves you +100 gp. Feel rich?
==Aelryinth
I'm not sure if I understand it. The spikes of an armor are masterworked separately from the armor but the ones of a shield not? then, the spiked armor masterwork cost 450gp and the shield one 150gp?.
Sorry for the long post. But I can't tell it won't happen again, I use to make long posts trying to tell all at once.
That is correct.
Armor Spikes on armor are enchanted separately from the armor itself in all ways. It's not spiked armor...it's armor spikes on armor.
A spiked shield is a spiked shield...it's a shield, it's armor, the spikes are NOT counted separately. It has a whole intact value all its own, and follows the armor rules.
You are absolutely correct.
==Aelryinth
As noted above, shield spikes do not need to be made masterwork, because they transform the shield. A spiked shield is still armor, and not a separate weapon. Thus, you don't masterwork it.
armor spikes are completely different.
Per the RECENT FAQ, Shield Spikes and the Bashing Enhancement no longer stack, The NPC Codex example dates from before that FAQ.
And yes, you can enchant a Shield as a +10 armor/+10 Weapon.
The idealized Uber Shield is generally a +5 Bashing Heavy SHield/+5 Defender Guardian. Using Shield Mastery:
It's a +5 weapon with no penalty when used while TWF/Bashing, using the ARmor bonus th/dmg.
You can devote the +5 Weapon Bonus to AC for an additional +5 AC, total of +12 AC.
Or you can devote the +5 bonus to your saving throws, instead.
It will set you back 134k for both Guardian and Defender, 108k for just Defender.
Note that if you are fighting thematic bad guys, such as Demons, you can also Bane the shield, and there's a Bane equivalent on the defensive side that gives an additional +2 Enhancement on the defense. Resulting in a +7 +2d6 shield against a specific foe, with +16 Defense or +7 Saves and +9 Defense, as you like.
==Aelryinth