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Cleromancy
School divination; Level cleric 2, druid 3, inquisitor 3, sorcerer/wizard 3
CASTING
Casting Time full-round action
Components V, S, F/DF (a set of 64 chicken bones)EFFECT
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 round/caster level
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance noDESCRIPTION
Cleromancy involves casting bones and interpreting the results. Those able to arrive at the proper interpretation are granted knowledge of coming events. Roll 1d4 per caster level. Group the dice by like results, and choose one of the groups. For the duration of cleromancy, you can apply a luck bonus equal to the result of the selected dice to any d20 roll.
You can apply this bonus to a number of rolls equal to the number of dice in the group. If cleromancy expires before you are able to allocate the total number of allotted bonuses, the remaining bonuses are lost.
Say I'm a 7th level cleric. So I roll 7d4. Let's say I get a 1,2, 2,3,4,2,4.
So I group those like so..
1,
2,2,2
3
4,4
So within the next 7 rounds (first full-round to cast, then it has a duration of 7 rounds) I can add some number to a d20 roll I make. It looks like it says I add up each group, and can use each group a number of times equal to the amount of dice in that group.
So I can add 1 once, 6 thrice, 3 once, and 8 twice.
Is that all correct?
You don't add them together. You are only ever going to get a +1, +2, +3, or +4 bonus.
You choose one of the groups. You get that number as a bonus on a number of rolls equal to the total number of times that number was rolled. You don't get all the rolls, you only get the number you chose.
So in your case you can choose one of the following:
1 +1 bonus or
3 +2 bonuses or
1 +3 bonus or
2 +4 bonuses
You don't get all of them.
I would argue that you DO add the dice.
Group the dice by like results, and choose one of the groups. For the duration of cleromancy, you can apply a luck bonus equal to the result of the selected dice to any d20 roll.
You didn't select a single die, you selected a single group, and you're adding a luck bonus equal to their result. That's why I think, if he picked the group of two 4's, he'd get 2 uses of +8.
However, that seems far too powerful, so I have to question if the spell was worded correctly. Then again, "dice" is singular while "die" is plural, and the word "dice" was used.
So actually, I reverse my opinion mid-post. You don't add the numbers together, the groups are just to give you your selections.
And that, kids, is how my brain works.
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I would argue that you DO add the dice.
Group the dice by like results, and choose one of the groups. For the duration of cleromancy, you can apply a luck bonus equal to the result of the selected dice to any d20 roll.You didn't select a single die, you selected a single group, and you're adding a luck bonus equal to their result. That's why I think, if he picked the group of two 4's, he'd get 2 uses of +8.
However, that seems far too powerful, so I have to question if the spell was worded correctly. Then again, "dice" is singular while "die" is plural, and the word "dice" was used.
So actually, I reverse my opinion mid-post. You don't add the numbers together, the groups are just to give you your selections.
And that, kids, is how my brain works.
I have to say, I would agree, this seems to indicate that you pick a group, sum the dice in it, and then once during the duration you can add that sum to a d20 roll.
for clarity:
Step 1. roll dice
Step 2. Group Dice
Step 3. Select group and sum
Step 4. Add Sum to a number of d20 rolls during spell duration = to number of dice in selected group.
[Edited]
Bolded for clarity
for clarity:
Step 1. roll dice
Step 2. Group Dice
Step 3. Select group and sum
Step 4. Add Sum to any 1 d20 roll during spell duration.
"You can apply this bonus to a number of rolls equal to the number of dice in the group."
The section on results is ambiguous, but given how ridiculous summing results would be (imagine 20th level cleric with 20d4s -- on average, 5 4s = 5 rolls with a free +20 for a 2nd level spell. Compare to moment of prescience, a 9th level spell) the RAI is very clear. When the RAW is ambiguous, default to the RAI which makes logical sense.
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Bolded for clarity
"You can apply this bonus to a number of rolls equal to the number of dice in the group."
for clarity:
Step 1. roll dice
Step 2. Group Dice
Step 3. Select group and sum
Step 4. Add Sum to any [b]1[/i] d20 roll during spell duration.
Oops I missed that last paragraph when i read the spell earlier.
In light of it, I stand by my reading, but agree that its WAY too powerful for a second level spell and probably not the RAI.
A very novel reading of the rules could comprehend the results being summed.
Judging by the spell level, I have extreme doubts you are intended to sum them together.
Bolded for clarity
"You can apply this bonus to a number of rolls equal to the number of dice in the group."
for clarity:
Step 1. roll dice
Step 2. Group Dice
Step 3. Select group and sum
Step 4. Add Sum to any [b]1[/i] d20 roll during spell duration.Oops I missed that last paragraph when i read the spell earlier.
In light of it, I stand by my reading, but agree that its WAY too powerful for a second level spell.
When there are two ways to read a spell, one of which is clearly outside RAI, why would you intepret it that way?
It's not like you can't just as easily parse that sentence to mean the sum on the dice.
If you add the numbers together, that just leads to abuse. Such as by using Maximize spell. Spell level 5, CL 9. 9x4 = +36 bonus on 9 rolls during the next 9 rounds.
Maximize and Empower it (7th level, CL 13) for a +5 to +6 bonus. That would be a +65 to +78 bonus on 13 rolls during the next 13 rounds.
Or you can just realize that is not the intention., and no where does is say to add the totals together. The "result of the selected dice" is the number rolled, not the sum of them.
I believe if they wanted you to sum the results, the word "sum" or "add" would be present somewhere in the text.
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Bolded for clarity
"You can apply this bonus to a number of rolls equal to the number of dice in the group."
for clarity:
Step 1. roll dice
Step 2. Group Dice
Step 3. Select group and sum
Step 4. Add Sum to any [b]1[/i] d20 roll during spell duration.Oops I missed that last paragraph when i read the spell earlier.
In light of it, I stand by my reading, but agree that its WAY too powerful for a second level spell.
When there are two ways to read a spell, one of which is clearly outside RAI, why would you intepret it that way?
It's not like you can't just as easily parse that sentence to mean the sum on the dice.
You really can't though. It's close, but a real straight forward reading of the RAW is as I describe it. It's exactly for this reason that people ask for FAQ's and clarification. I for one don't think it's too much to ask that rules be clearly stated in unequivocal language.
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So from my original example, for the duration of the spell, I can add one once, two thrice, three once, or four twice?
I asked because it's worded very confusingly. For someone who usually only sees what's written and can only conclude what's intended from that (i.e. a very logically-minded person), it's just confusing.
After reading the responses, I believe it's supposed to work this way, but someone saying yes or no to this question would help that.
"Group Dice by like results" (plural for the grouping)
"apply a luck bonus equal to the result" (singular for the application)
So, roll the dice, group them, and choose which result (1, 2, 3, or 4) you want to use. You then, during the duration, get a luck bonus of that result (+1, +2, +3 or +4) to x number of d20's rolled, where x is the number of dice that landed on your chosen result.
If a spell requires this much reading comprehension and math, just don't use it. Everybody at the table will hate you for how much time it takes up.
If a spell requires this much reading comprehension and math, just don't use it. Everybody at the table will hate you for how much time it takes up.
Nonsense - my table loves random effect spells - and they all take a bit more reading than 'target takes 1d6 fire damage'.
Oh yeah, this spell is also extra cool with Fate's Favored.
Perhaps I'm biased because of the month of sacred geometry.
They literally came out with an app to do the math for you.
Perhaps I'm biased because of the month of sacred geometry.
They literally came out with an app to do the math for you.
This in no way compares to that mess - this spell really doesn't use any math at all.
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Oh yeah, this spell is also extra cool with Fate's Favored.
That's why I'm trying to figure it out.
Perhaps I'm biased because of the month of sacred geometry.
They literally came out with an app to do the math for you.
This isn't that complicated. It's just confusing up front. But once you understand it it's pretty straight forward.
So from my original example, for the duration of the spell, I can add one once, two thrice, three once, or four twice?I asked because it's worded very confusingly. For someone who usually only sees what's written and can only conclude what's intended from that (i.e. a very logically-minded person), it's just confusing.
After reading the responses, I believe it's supposed to work this way, but someone saying yes or no to this question would help that.
Yes.