If you never concentrate, when precisely does a duration:concentration spell end?


Rules Questions


So round 1, I cast my spell with duration concentration, like mage hand. Pick up a coin and hover it in mid air.

Round 2, let's say I double move, and neglect to maintain concentration at any point. Does the coin fall at the beginning, middle, or end of this round?


It falls as soon as you neglect to concentrate. I would most likely rule immediately on declaring an action that prevents you from being able.

As for when specifically during your set of actions, I do not believe the rules go into this level of detail, and as a GM I must confess as to be suspect of why that level of specificity woukd be pertinent.

Liberty's Edge

A spell with a duration of rounds or minuets end as soon as your turn begin. So the decision if you are maintaining concentration or not is made at the start of your round. Then the standard action can be done when you want during the round.

What the rule is trying to depict is that you are maintaining your concentration during the whole round and that reduce the actions that you can take during your turn. As the rules are what they are in the game you should actually spend an action every turn.


Quote:
I would most likely rule immediately on declaring an action that prevents you from being able.

I could agree and see it be on TAKING that action that first makes it impossible to concentrate, yes.

DECLARING only would imply that the spell "knows the future" or that it is sitting at the game table listening to the players OOC action economy comments.

So for double moving, I may say "double move" as a player, but in-universe, the character hasn't committed to not concentrating until starting his second move action, so the coin should fall in between the two moves, I would say, not before both.

But then it can get weird... What if I have a contingent action prepared that says "Concentrate on ongoing mage hand spell if anybody casts feather fall"? Does the coin now fall only at the end of the turn, since it doesn't "know" whether feather fall may still be cast at the end in response to, say, a free action, thus still making it possible to concentrate on my turn?

That doesn't seem right at all... which makes me inclined to just say "it always falls at the end" as the only way to make this not matter.

Quote:
A spell with a duration of rounds or minuets end as soon as your turn begin. So the decision if you are maintaining concentration or not is made at the start of your round. Then the standard action can be done when you want during the round.

I'm not following your logic here on why round or minute duration spells imply anything about concentration duration spells. Or does it say somewhere that you have to declare this at the start?

Plus declaring in this way still implies that the spell "knows the future" somehow, even as a transmutation spell.


Crimeo wrote:
Quote:
I would most likely rule immediately on declaring an action that prevents you from being able.

I could agree and see it be on TAKING that action that first makes it impossible to concentrate, yes.

DECLARING only would imply that the spell "knows the future" or that it is sitting at the game table listening to the players OOC action economy comments.

So for double moving, I may say "double move" as a player, but in-universe, the character hasn't committed to not concentrating until starting his second move action, so the coin should fall in between the two moves, I would say, not before both.

But then it can get weird... What if I have a contingent action prepared that says "Concentrate on ongoing mage hand spell if anybody casts feather fall"? Does the coin now fall only at the end of the turn, since it doesn't "know" whether feather fall may still be cast at the end in response to, say, a free action, thus still making it possible to concentrate on my turn?

That doesn't seem right at all... which makes me inclined to just say "it always falls at the end" as the only way to make this not matter.

Quote:
A spell with a duration of rounds or minuets end as soon as your turn begin. So the decision if you are maintaining concentration or not is made at the start of your round. Then the standard action can be done when you want during the round.
I'm not following your logic here on why round or minute duration spells imply anything about concentration duration spells. Or does it say somewhere that you have to declare this at the start?

It is a similar level of abstraction to being able to 5 foot step in the middle of a full attack, etc.

In regards to the two questions:
1) You can't really ready this action... The process of doing so would cause the spell to immediately fail, thus immediately trigger the action, makng it functionally a "waste of words" to declare in such a manner in my eyes. Either that or I am not understanding what you are describing,
2) I am unaware of any such rule requiring you to declare this decision immediately on your turn beginning.


Quote:
You can't really ready this action...

I am talking about contingent action (the spell), not readied action (the action):

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/contingent-action


Ahh, ok. You are highlighting kind of one of the main reasons I hate spells like this, and don't generally allow them at my table. So, I am afraid I lack the experience to comment. That reason being they tend to disrupt with great effectiveness the normal "order" which so many rules rely apon, and create awkward and unaddressed interactions.


Yeah I can probably just ignore that. Without contingent action or one or two others, it should be safe to just say "It would end in the middle of a double move, or end at the start of a run" etc. Whenever you've fiirst committed to not concentrating this round.

And if players are silly enough to try to pull the major shenanigans, then they have no room to complain about suddenly appearing house rules. It's always nice to just hope maybe there's some other way around that though. *shrug*

It is still very odd that a spell would have different durations based on my intentions/commitments to unrelated actions, but oh well, I can live with that.


I think I would rule it as, the concentration, or lack of, needs to be declared as the first action of the turn or it ends. I would treat the concentration part of the spell as a tax, you pay the tax or the spell is immediately repossessed. I have no raw backing, just they way I would interpret it.

Liberty's Edge

Crimeo wrote:


Quote:
A spell with a duration of rounds or minutes end as soon as your turn begin. So the decision if you are maintaining concentration or not is made at the start of your round. Then the standard action can be done when you want during the round.

I'm not following your logic here on why round or minute duration spells imply anything about concentration duration spells. Or does it say somewhere that you have to declare this at the start?

Plus declaring in this way still implies that the spell "knows the future" somehow, even as a transmutation spell.

It give us a general rules: "spells with a duration end just before the stat of the caster turn".

If that don't suit you, it stop as soon as your turn come and you are unable to spend a standard action to maintain it.

You take a double move? As soon as you are unable to spend a standard action (i.e. when you start your second move) it fail.

You use your standard action to ready an action to concentrate on the spell if X happen? You are unable to spend a standard action and the spell fail. When the condition happen you don't have a spell on which you can concentrate.


Quote:
It give us a general rules: "spells with a duration end just before the stat of the caster turn".

Rules don't work in pathfinder by taking X+Y+Z specific examples and inferring a general rule. Either general rules are written at a general level with a scope that includes a thing, or they don't exist.

There is no general rule that spells with durations end just before the start of the caster's turn, so therefore this isn't a thing generally.

Quote:
You take a double move? As soon as you are unable to spend a standard action (i.e. when you start your second move) it fail.

This I think is reasonable (and is the same conclusion reached above by others), as it seems to be the most liberal allowed interpretation that satisfies the rules as written. But it's not the same thing you said in the first half of your post and doesn't imply "declaring" or ending at the beginning, neither of which seem to have a text basis.

Liberty's Edge

Crimeo wrote:
Quote:
It give us a general rules: "spells with a duration end just before the stat of the caster turn".

Rules don't work in pathfinder by taking X+Y+Z specific examples and inferring a general rule. Either general rules are written at a general level with a scope that includes a thing, or they don't exist.

There is no general rule that spells with durations end just before the start of the caster's turn, so therefore this isn't a thing generally.

Quote:
You take a double move? As soon as you are unable to spend a standard action (i.e. when you start your second move) it fail.
This I think is reasonable (and is the same conclusion reached above by others), as it seems to be the most liberal allowed interpretation that satisfies the rules as written. But it's not the same thing you said in the first half of your post and doesn't imply "declaring" or ending at the beginning, neither of which seem to have a text basis.

To repeat it: If that don't suit you.

You show a peculiar vision of the rules in all your post, so I gave you a alternative explanation that seem to follow your way of thinking.


I thought ceasing to concentrate on a spell was an immediate action, but I can't seem to find it in the PRD.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Crimeo wrote:

So round 1, I cast my spell with duration concentration, like mage hand. Pick up a coin and hover it in mid air.

Round 2, let's say I double move, and neglect to maintain concentration at any point. Does the coin fall at the beginning, middle, or end of this round?

Beginning


abbamouse wrote:
I thought ceasing to concentrate on a spell was an immediate action, but I can't seem to find it in the PRD.

That sounds familiar to me too. But in this scenario, I'm assuming the caster WANTS it to last as long as possible, so he just wouldn't take this action, and the question is at what point does it wink out against his will?

Quote:
Beginning

...any elaboration?

(I am already happy with the previous conclusions by the way, but also happy to hear other perspectives)


Diego Rossi wrote:
A spell with a duration of rounds or minuets end as soon as your turn begin.

A spell with a duration of minuets must be a bard spell.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / If you never concentrate, when precisely does a duration:concentration spell end? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.