If Fast Learner were free, would you use it?

[Bob Bob Bob]

Fast Learner doesn't give anything.

Fast Learner transforms FCB into +1 HP and +1 SP.

Toughness actually gives +1 HP/level. In addition to that, you get to pick the FCB of your choice.

How is Toughness not better than Fast Learner? There is no circumstance is which Fast Learner gives more than Toughness (just pick the skill point for FCB). At levels 1 and 2, it's more HP. If you take the HP FCB, Toughness gives more HP. If you take a class specific FCB, it still gives you HP. If you take a class other than your favored class, it still gives you HP. Toughness literally does more.

[Endency]

The people I play with have actually made the house rule that everyone starts the game with a free race feat. So it basically is free for us. I've taken it on more than one occasion.

[Melkiador]

Endency wrote:

The people I play with have actually made the house rule that everyone starts the game with a free race feat. So it basically is free for us. I've taken it on more than one occasion.

I like that idea. I may have to steal it.

[Turin the Mad]

Headfirst wrote:

BretI wrote:

Read further down.

CRB, pg. 86 wrote:

In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results, such as trying to open a lock using Disable Device, you can’t aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn’t achieve alone.

If the lock is DC 25 and you don't have a +5 Disable Device, you can't Aid Another in attempting to pick that lock.

I think the intent of this rules is for situations where you have to have a certain class ability to attempt a skill in a specific situation, not where your bonus isn't numerically high enough. In that specific example, I think they meant to say "use Disable Device to disarm magical traps."

I agree with Headfirst on this, since it seems that it is supposed to apply to checks that are "trained only", not "if you can't make the DC, you can't help". It's plenty sensible that the trapfinder can direct an assistant to aid in various fashions when attempting to pick a lock or disable a trap. I've done this IRL for locks as a matter of course. The rules only state a DC of 10.

Without a rank in the skill or an ability that permits attempting untrained skill checks in "Trained Only" skills, you can't aid in Disable Device, Handle Animal, Knowledge, Profession, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft and Use Magic Device checks. If you don't have trapfinding or its analogous ability, you can't aid in using Disable Device on a magical trap. And so forth.

[Scythia]

I long ago disconnected favoured class bonus from race, so a player can choose which they want without having to compromise their character concept.

Then again, I would allow fast learner to grant an FCB and either 1hp or 1skill.

[glass]

Bob Bob Bob wrote:

How is Toughness not better than Fast Learner?

Across the aggregate of all characters, Toughness is better*. I don't think anyone disagrees with that. For any given character it might be better, but it will quite likely be identical.

I have a couple of characters with Toughness. They are single classed, above 3rd level, and have taken the skill point at each level. So if I retrained that to Fast Learner, literally nothing would change, except that I would now qualify for the Improvisation feat (and would cease to qualify for any feats with Toughness of a prereq, but I can't think of any OTTOMH).

_
glass.

(* Although it does not, as some have suggested, give two more hp over Fast Learner unless you are below 3rd level.)

[glass]

Turin the Mad wrote:

I agree with Headfirst on this, since it seems that it is supposed to apply to checks that are "trained only", not "if you can't make the DC, you can't help".

I agree that is probably what it was supposed to say, but BretI was right about what it actually says.

As written, I you can't make the check yourself for any reason, then you can't aid, and "can't hit the DC" is definitely such a reason. Damn!

EDIT: I have started a thread in Rules for this, so we can hopefully stop dragging this off-topic (and get a few FAQ clicks).

EDIT2: Apologies for the double post. I forgot when I posted this that the Aid Another discussion was in the same thread...

_
glass.

[Nigrescence]

If it is free in the sense that I don't have to change anything else or sacrifice a feat to get it, and it gives me something more than what I would have anyway, especially if that something more is one skill point per level or one hit point per level. For free. I would be stupid to not use it. So, absolutely yes 100% of the time, I can always use more hit points or more skill points (none of the alternate Human FCB choices are worth taking anyway, with very few exceptions).

If I had to spend a feat to get it, though, then it is no longer free. And again, in the very rare case where I prefer a different Human FCB would it ever not be used. I repeat, very rare.

[glass]

Nigrescence wrote:

If it is free in the sense that I don't have to change anything else or sacrifice a feat to get it, and it gives me something more than what I would have anyway, especially if that something more is one skill point per level or one hit point per level. For free. I would be stupid to not use it. So, absolutely yes 100% of the time, I can always use more hit points or more skill points (none of the alternate Human FCB choices are worth taking anyway, with very few exceptions).

The OP said free for everyone, not free for humans. So it is competing with everyone's FCBs, and some of the non-human FCBs are pretty nice (not so many as before the recent errata, admittedly).

_
glass.

[Crimeo]

Ye, most of the FCB are terrible, IMO. Unless you pick a race for them they're not likely to synergize much. I only take them as-is like half the time.

[Bob Bob Bob]

Most FCB are crap only in the sense that 90% of everything is crap. They're +1/X to a class feature or situational thing. The thing is, the other 10% are amazeballs and worth choosing a race for. Human is by far the worst offender here, I think. Barbarian is still pretty great (though less so than before errata). Every spontaneous spellcaster gets "one more spell known". Paladin gets energy resistance (seriously, what's up with this?). Shaman apparently gets to steal cleric spells. Other races I have to hunt a little for the good stuff, like half-orc or elf druid, or half-elf summoner.

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

I don't allow racial FCBs in my games, because they are not even remotely balanced against each other. Skill Point and Hit Point seem reasonable, and that's that. So if the above was offered for free, of course my players would take it, of course that means that multiclassing would feel incredibly discouraging.

[Orfamay Quest]

BretI wrote:

Read further down.

CRB, pg. 86 wrote:

In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results, such as trying to open a lock using Disable Device, you can’t aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn’t achieve alone.

If the lock is DC 25 and you don't have a +5 Disable Device, you can't Aid Another in attempting to pick that lock.

I think you missed the italicized bit.

Does the skill itself restrict who can achieve results, or does my lack of skill restrict the results I can achieve?

For example, a "trained only" skill demands -- as in, the skill itself demands -- that I have ranks in the skill to attempt a task, I can't attempt to aid another if I can't attempt the task.

If the skill says I need a feat (say, Master Craftsman) to accomplish a task, I can't aid another on that task if I don't have that feat.

I think the idea that I can't chop vegetables for a master chef (profession: cook) is silly. I mean, prep cook is a job. Sure, I'm no master chef myself, but I can make carrots into coins.

[Fuzzy-Wuzzy]

To summarize/paraphrase the [on-topic] responses to "if Fast Learner were free, would you use it?":

• kyrt-ryder: On a case by case basis yes. What it basically boils down to is that at present the HP or Skillpoint is mostly a fallback if there isn't anything better. This would make it a more meaningful choice.

• Orfamay Quest: Depends on the alternative.

• Philo Pharynx: I'd probably use it about 2/3 of the time.

• Zwordsman: Takes the actual feat much of the time anyway, so would use this most of the time.

• thejeff: Depends on what my alternate FCB is. I fairly regularly take the skill point or hit point normally.

• Lemmy: It depends on what the alternative is.

• graystone: Depends. Some races that otherwise work quite well for classes have just awful alternate FCB or none at all. Having this as an option would make those much more competitive with some of the other race options.

• Secret Wizard: Would usually use it for brawlers and fighters and probably alchemists.

• Melkiador: Depends on the alternative.

• Headfirst: Depends on the class.

• Turin the Mad: Always! But this may only apply under a local house rule.

• phantom1592: Yes, except when the alternative gives me free spells.

• Bretl: Depends on the alternative.

• Andrew L Klein: I definitely would, considering I rarely take the class benefits anyway.

• Endency: [implied] Very often but not always.

• Nigrescence: I would be stupid not to use it. But from the rest of the response I'm not sure whether this is based on a valid understanding of the question.

• Crimeo: Usually; I only take alternatives half the time as it is.

• DM_aka_Dudemeister: I don't allow racial FCBs in my games.
  

I think this is enough data to reach some conclusions.

What I don't see is anyone saying "Gosh, normally I disdain HP and skill ranks, but if they were packaged together I would totally take them over the alternative FCBs." So one conclusion is that granting Fast Learner universally would definitely not unbalance the FCB system.

OTOH nobody said "Nope, still not worth it," so another conclusion is that there would definitely be an impact.

Oh, and nobody said "bwa ha ha, then I could get Improvisation tax-free and rule the world!"

Overall, this looks to be a sound house rule.

Thanks for all the replies!

[kyrt-ryder]

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

I don't allow racial FCBs in my games, because they are not even remotely balanced against each other. Skill Point and Hit Point seem reasonable, and that's that. So if the above was offered for free, of course my players would take it, of course that means that multiclassing would feel incredibly discouraging.

You say that like classes or feats or spells are :P

[Aelryinth]

Orfamay Quest wrote:

BretI wrote:

Read further down.

CRB, pg. 86 wrote:

In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results, such as trying to open a lock using Disable Device, you can’t aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn’t achieve alone.

If the lock is DC 25 and you don't have a +5 Disable Device, you can't Aid Another in attempting to pick that lock.

I think you missed the italicized bit.

Does the skill itself restrict who can achieve results, or does my lack of skill restrict the results I can achieve?

For example, a "trained only" skill demands -- as in, the skill itself demands -- that I have ranks in the skill to attempt a task, I can't attempt to aid another if I can't attempt the task.

If the skill says I need a feat (say, Master Craftsman) to accomplish a task, I can't aid another on that task if I don't have that feat.

I think the idea that I can't chop vegetables for a master chef (profession: cook) is silly. I mean, prep cook is a job. Sure, I'm no master chef myself, but I can make carrots into coins.

It all depends on what +2 means in this context.

What if DC 25 means that those carrots have to be cut into coins with less then .1 millimeter variance in thickness? By hand, not machine?

If you don't have a +5, you simply aren't good enough to do this, and the Master Chef has to do it himself.

Seriously, though, all aid another should do is 'contribute gold' towards a check, enabling something to get done faster. 'How well' it's done should be a strict measure of Ranks, Stats, and Feats.

==Aelryinth