Retraining Prerequisites in PFS

[Trscroggs]

I know it's not an offical resource yet, but I want to go on and ask this question anyway.

Is it okay to retrain a feat that is a prerequisite for other feats the same character has -- if the new feat also meets the prerequisite requirements for all the feats the old feat supported?

More specifically, can a character who has Improved Trip retrain out of Combat Expertise and into Dirty Fighting instead?

Dirty Fighting's special reads:

Spoiler:

Special: This feat counts as having Dex 13, Int 13, Combat
Expertise, and Improved Unarmed Strike for the purposes
of meeting the prerequisites of the various improved
combat maneuver feats, as well as feats that require those
improved combat maneuver feats as prerequisites.

Essentially all the requirements of Improved Trip would remained checked if you swapped Combat Expertise for Dirty Fighting.

My Staff Magus doesn't really have the personality for Dirty Fighting, but it fits in with what he is trying to accomplish and he never uses Combat Expertise. The flanking bonus would be far more useful and might make be enough to make his Improved Trip worth using again. (If the answer is 'no' I'll just have to train out of both feats, and pick something more useful to the way the character has evolved.)

---

Actually, while I am at this. In PFS can you retrain a class feature?

More specifically, could a level 8 Magus train out a magus arcana that they don't use for another magus arcana?

Furthermore if a Magus can retrain an arcana, could the same level 8 magus retrain the arcana they received at level 3 for an arcana you have to be level 6 to take?

(Honestly, I want to train out Empowered Magic for Wand Wielder, but I wanted to ask the second question just to clarify things.)

[Preston Hudson]

Retrain Class Features - Yes

Retrain Combat Expertise for Dirty Fighting - Yes

Retrain Magus Arcana - Yes

Retrain Arcana gained at 3 level for one that you have to be 6th level to take - No.

Per Page 189 in Ultimate Campaign you are eligible to retrain class features at a specific level into those you would be eligible to take at that level. Retrain 3rd level arcana into only those other arcana you can gain at level 3. Retrain level 6 arcana into only those eligible to be taken at 3rd or 6th level.

Hope this helps.

[FLite]

Preston Hudson wrote:

Retrain Combat Expertise for Dirty Fighting - Yes

Having reread the retraining feats section, this may be subject to table variation by GMs who are relying on an overly strict interpretation of the rules.

Quote:

The old feat can't be one you used as a prerequisite for a feat

But I would say yes.

[The Great Rinaldo!]

I agree with FLite. By a very strict reading of the rules, you couldn't do it, but I believe the intent was to make sure you don't end up with a feat and no prerequisite, so that the character could not have arrived at that point "naturally". I would support this sort of swap that leaves you with a legal character after the retrain.

[Markov Spiked Chain]

Also, Dirty Fighting isn't PFS legal at the moment. :)

[Paladin of Baha-who?]

Currently, no. But it should be.

[TetsujinOni]

Markov Spiked Chain wrote:

Also, Dirty Fighting isn't PFS legal at the moment. :)

We could base our discussion around Reach Defense from the Dragonslayer's Handbook if you prefer, since it has a limited form of equivalence:

Quote:

Special: This feat counts as Dodge for the purpose of qualifying for the Mobility and Spring Attack feats.

I could wish that Ultimate Campaign's text read like this:

Quote:

You must qualify for all other rule items of your character before and after all retraining as individual steps.

Requires introducing the generic term 'rule item' as a game term, but it's a term used in technical analysis of the game system anyway, and retraining is putting game mechanics around a metagame activity anyway.

[BigNorseWolf]

Go for it. Its not violating the purpose of the rule, which is to keep you from getting rid of feat tax pre prequisites while keeping the feat.