What exactly qualifies as a "non-harmless effect with the emotion descriptor"?
I get that there are spells with the Emotion Descriptor that have "Will negates" as the saving throw, thus making that non-harmless.
What about spells without saves that have the emotion descriptor (Rage comes to mind, but also Joyful Rapture... sure it's instantaneous, but could that be readied to disrupt a psychic spellcaster?)?
What about non-spell effects that seem emotional (a multi-classed bloodrager with the mad magic feat... can they cast psychic spells with emotional components while bloodraging? what about inspire courage/competence/greatness? they don't allow a save, so do they qualify as non-harmless if an emotion spell that doesn't require a save does?)?
Whether a spell has a save or not doesn't matter - if it doesn't say "harmless" then it's not harmless, because harmless is a game term.
So Joyful Rapture and Bardic Performance would or would not qualify as non-harmless emotion? Both do not mention being harmless and both seem to qualify as emotion effects (well, Joyful Rapture DOES have the emotion descriptor, the question for that one is if it's harmless or not... but a bardic performance or masterpiece may or may not be emotion).
Rage/Bloodrage are less clear, but given that they have penalties associated, chances are they aren't harmless either.
Would having the Fighting Frenzy teamwork feat make a difference?
Fighting Frenzy (Combat, Teamwork)
You feed off the rage of your allies.
Prerequisite(s): Cha 13, rage class feature.Benefit(s): When you are in a rage and an ally with this feat within 60 feet is in a rage, you don't take the normal –2 penalty to AC for being in a rage. If you would take a larger penalty to AC for being in a rage, reduce that penalty by 2.
As an example, take a look at the spell Resistance (I know it's not a psychic spell). If you look on the saving line it says:
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless)
If a spell doesn't have the "(harmless)" part after it, it's not harmless.
As an example, take a look at the spell Resistance (I know it's not a psychic spell). If you look on the saving line it says:
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless)If a spell doesn't have the "(harmless)" part after it, it's not harmless.
Yes, I know. My question was if it didn't have a saving throw (like the spells Rage & Joyous Rapture) did those count as being non-harmless due to the fact that they had no save (and thus no "harmless" marker in the save section), and, as a corollary, effects that AREN'T spells, thus do not have the emotion descriptor, but also do not have saving throws (Rage/Bloodrage, Bardic Performance/Masterpieces, probably others) yet seem to be "emotional".
Here's a dumb example. It has already been established that a successful Intimidate check to demoralize counts as a fear effect for psychic spells with an emotion component. Since nothing (to my knowledge) outside of spells currently has an emotion descriptor on it, would a successful Diplomacy check that changes the target's mood to Helpful be considered an emotion effect? What about a really good Perform check? Bluff? All of these could be considered "emotion effects" (depending on how far you want to stretch), but could they shut down a psychic spellcaster like an intimidate check can?
I just found 3 spells that has None for saving throw, but still says (harmless), so apparently that is possible.
It didn't occur to me to search for "Saving Throw none (harmless)" on d20pfsrd until just now :D
If it's not a spell it doesn't have the emotion descriptor, regardless of whether it seems like an emotion effect.
As far as I know, only spells have descriptors, and therefore only spells could have the emotion descriptor.
If it's not a spell it doesn't have the emotion descriptor, regardless of whether it seems like an emotion effect.
As far as I know, only spells have descriptors, and therefore only spells could have the emotion descriptor.
That may be true, but there is precedent.
Emotion Components: Does the shaken condition from effects like Intimidate count as “an effect with the fear descriptor” for the purpose of blocking spells with emotion components?
Yes, they do. It should say “fear effect,” and for most descriptors, these wordings are sometimes used interchangeably. For instance, an ability that protects you from effects with the charm descriptor would generally protect you from a harpy’s song (which is a charm effect).
The Intimidate skill can be used to demoralize which grants the shaken condition which carries the fear descriptor, despite not being a spell.
The precedent only exists due to the FAQ, but there isn't an FAQ for saying that things that seem like the may have an emotion descriptor count. At least not at this time.
It may change in the future, but currently, by the rules the answer is no.
The precedent only exists due to the FAQ, but there isn't an FAQ for saying that things that seem like the may have an emotion descriptor count. At least not at this time.
It may change in the future, but currently, by the rules the answer is no.
That was my initial thought, but since that would be beneficial to me, I wanted to make sure first. :-D
Why don't you finish your question... you're looking to see if all of the above will shutdown a psychic caster, yes?
Yes, sorry. :-) it all made sense in my head.
Would a multiclassed mesmerist/Bloodrager (for example) with the mad magic feat be able to cast their mesmerist spells while bloodraging. Would they also lose their tower of will bonus in the same circumstance.
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A bit of necro, but this thread hasn't yet started to smell and I am interested in the question.
So:
what count as an effect with the emotion description?
1) any effect that give a morale bonus/penalty?
2) only spell and spell like abilities with the emotion descriptor?
3) some other thing?
The FAQ cited above say what count as a fear descriptor. A emotion description is way more vague.
Essentially. A bard can be the worst enemy of a psychic caster? ;P
A bit of necro, but this thread hasn't yet started to smell and I am interested in the question.
So:
what count as an effect with the emotion description?1) any effect that give a morale bonus/penalty?
2) only spell and spell like abilities with the emotion descriptor?
3) some other thing?The FAQ cited above say what count as a fear descriptor. A emotion description is way more vague.
Essentially. A bard can be the worst enemy of a psychic caster? ;P
First off, that FAQ is RIDICULOUSLY worded and causes significant complications. It creates more table variance than it solves, particularly when it opens up the "charm descriptor/effect" at the end.
That said, morale bonus/penalty =/= emotion or fear effect/descriptor. If you want to go full ham as a GM with the FAQ, though, anything that impacts your control of your emotions prevents you from spellcasting without use of the Logical Spell metamagic. This means Rage/Bloodrage prevent psychic casting, even on spells where that is the preferred emotion component.
Joyful Rapture, however, specifically does not because there are no effects listed for opponents (so there's no emotion effect preventing casting) and allies have the following benefit:
All allies within the area of effect are freed from any harmful emotion effects.
Bards should not impact psychic casting unless using spells that were updated in Ultimate Magic or have archetype ability replacements that impart appropriately listed effects. I couldn't readily find any performances listed as having an emotion effect. Going with the "expanded" definition, the Court Bard could definitely screw up a psychic caster, though.
Emotion components are quite onerous currently and, due to the "every spell has a visual effect" FAQ, psychic casting lacks significant benefit.
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Every spell behaving as if it was silent and stilled isn't a significant benefit for you?
Joyful Rapture
School conjuration (healing) [emotion];
It is an instantaneous spell and only affect allies, but it has the emotion descriptor, so it can disrupt psychic spells.
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"This means Rage/Bloodrage prevent psychic casting, even on spells where that is the preferred emotion component."
Emotion Components: Emotion components represent a particular emotional state required to cast the spell. A psychic spellcaster marshals her desire in order to focus and release the spell's energy. It is impossible to cast a spell with an emotion component while the spellcaster is under the influence of a non-harmless effect with the emotion or fear descriptors. Even if the effect's emotion matches the necessary emotion to cast the psychic spell, the spellcaster is not in control of her own desires and animal impulses, which is a necessary part of providing an emotion component.
It is possible to argue that the rage is part of the caster "own desires and animal impulses" as it isn't originated by an outside force, but you can't argue that an effect that impose a rage emotion form outside the caster should allow him to use the spells that require the rage emotion as the rules say exactly the opposite.
Every spell behaving as if it was silent and stilled isn't a significant benefit for you?
No, because even psychic spells have visual components. The main benefit of psychic casting was the presumption that they didn't, meaning they could be used in situations where silent/still couldn't. Any arcane or divine caster could take a one level dip into oracle for "free" silent on all their spells already if they really wanted to anyway, which would give you the stealth effects that many people now hope that psychic spells still possess.
It is an instantaneous spell and only affect allies, but it has the emotion descriptor, so it can disrupt psychic spells.Joyful Rapture
School conjuration (healing) [emotion];
Yes, it has the emotion descriptor, but it "free[s] from any harmful emotion effects." I read that to say that it removes all non-harmless emotion effects.
- * -
"This means Rage/Bloodrage prevent psychic casting, even on spells where that is the preferred emotion component."
Emotion Components: Emotion components represent a particular emotional state required to cast the spell. A psychic spellcaster marshals her desire in order to focus and release the spell's energy. It is impossible to cast a spell with an emotion component while the spellcaster is under the influence of a non-harmless effect with the emotion or fear descriptors. Even if the effect's emotion matches the necessary emotion to cast the psychic spell, the spellcaster is not in control of her own desires and animal impulses, which is a necessary part of providing an emotion component.It is possible to argue that the rage is part of the caster "own desires and animal impulses" as it isn't originated by an outside force, but you can't argue that an effect that impose a rage emotion form outside the caster should allow him to use the spells that require the rage emotion as the rules say exactly the opposite.
So, it should be noted that the Rage spell is willing target only, but important parts of the Rage class feature include:
While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration.
...and Bloodrage...
While bloodraging, a bloodrager cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration.
...with the specific exemptions stated in Blood Casting...
Blood Casting (Su): At 4th level, the bloodrager gains the ability to cast spells even while bloodraging. He can also cast these spells defensively and can attempt concentration checks for these spells while bloodraging. While bloodraging, he can cast and concentrate on only his bloodrager spells; spells from other classes cannot be cast during this state.
So no, you don't control your emotions while raging. You just get that added layer of class feature in the way. Follow this up with ye olde Moment of Clarity:
Moment of Clarity (Ex): The barbarian does not gain any benefits or take any of the penalties from rage for 1 round. Activating this power is a swift action. This includes the penalty to Armor Class and the restriction on what actions can be performed. This round still counts against her total number of rounds of rage per day. This power can only be used once per rage.
Pretty clear how that works.
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Every spell behaving as if it was silent and stilled isn't a significant benefit for you?No, because even psychic spells have visual components. The main benefit of psychic casting was the presumption that they didn't, meaning they could be used in situations where silent/still couldn't. Any arcane or divine caster could take a one level dip into oracle for "free" silent on all their spells already if they really wanted to anyway, which would give you the stealth effects that many people now hope that psychic spells still possess.
It is an instantaneous spell and only affect allies, but it has the emotion descriptor, so it can disrupt psychic spells.Joyful Rapture
School conjuration (healing) [emotion];
Yes, it has the emotion descriptor, but it "free[s] from any harmful emotion effects." I read that to say that it removes all non-harmless emotion effects.
It is not "harmful emotion effects", it is "a non-harmless effect with the emotion or fear descriptors".
Harmless is a game term and is a tag that is present in the save section or SR section of the spell descriptions. If the spell hasn't that tag it is not "harmless" and so it disrupt psychic casting.Example
Shared Wrath
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
UM added the Emotion descriptor to it, but it is harmless, so it don't disrupt psychic casting.