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A gift of telepathy from Juiblex, maybe? Or maybe Zuggtmoy?No one is going to go for the Gelatinous Cube with class levels (including a dip in Dragon Disciple) and a 30-point buy?Character Background: They were L4 and hit with the Flesh to Oooze spell, making the Will saving throw but not the Fortitude one, and then the party cleric with Detect Thoughts realized they were still sentient, and established a way for it to communicate?
Zuggtmoy could do it just to tweak Jubilex. Jubilex might act as a deity to the new mold (Cleric levels, maybe?).
Y'know, this is becoming more and more interesting...
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My point remains, there is a chronic shortage of GM's, as reported on this forum and as I experience locally. Perhaps if running PFS wasn't quite so unpleasant more people would do it. It certainly is easy enough.
Some people feel they have to know all of the crazy rules, crazy builds, and have to get everything exactly right up to some sort of standard in order to dm games.
Official game is still a game. relax and go for it.
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Everyone has their own style of play. I don't agree with or enjoy some styles of play. I've been pretty vocal about that.
But that doesn't give me the right to tell others how to play the game.
That is an impossible standard.
The player who shows up with a character the GM doesn't want at his table but says he has to accept it because it is legal is dictating how the GM plays the game just as much as the GM saying the player cannot play the character.
Someone has to be the arbiter and by the nature of the game PFS has a hierarchy of them. The campaign coordinator decides what is allowed in the campaign as a whole. GM's though have the final say and ultimately they can simply choose to either not run at all or if push comes to shove get up from the table if they find things unacceptable.
My point remains, there is a chronic shortage of GM's, as reported on this forum and as I experience locally. Perhaps if running PFS wasn't quite so unpleasant more people would do it. It certainly is easy enough.
It is not an impossible standard, if you deal with play styles that disrupt the table as a problem with the player, rather than a problem with the play style.
Every person has the responsibility to do their best to cooperate with their fellow people. And gamers should be no exception. And if you have that one player who keeps showing up and making the game not-fun for the others, then the problem isn't the game or the character, but the player. And that needs to be dealt with as such.
Ban his character for some arbitrary (or even good) reason, and he'll come back with another character that irritates you. Until you deal with why this person is putting together characters that don't play well with others (essentially that the player doesn't play well with others), then you'll be beating your head against a brick wall.
I know that the typical response of folks is to get defensive or aggressive when they see something they don't like. And the response is often an aggressive response transferred to the wrong target.
In these cases, one must act like an adult, and deal with these types of things as an adult. Deal with the problem player. Away from the game and privately. But first, you gotta ensure that the other players truly do feel there is a problem, and that the problem isn't actually you.
So no, I cannot support and categorically disagree with any rules that would allow a GM to ban a character from the table that is otherwise legal, just because they don't like the build. This is often a passive aggressive way of dealing with the real problem behind the character, so that you don't have to actually have an uncomfortable conversation with a person on a personal level rather than on the costume level.
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Unfortunately, a lot of places only offer you a choice of play with the guy who will dominate the table, or not play. It often seem that there are just a number of people who either do not care about their fellow players or in it to win.
Its hard to tell someone thats trying to dominate the table from someone that has a different idea of how competent a character should be at their job. There's no reason it can't be a fun rump through the dungeon still.
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Unfortunately, a lot of places only offer you a choice of play with the guy who will dominate the table, or not play. It often seem that there are just a number of people who either do not care about their fellow players or in it to win.Its hard to tell someone thats trying to dominate the table from someone that has a different idea of how competent a character should be at their job. There's no reason it can't be a fun rump through the dungeon still.
But it isn't hard to read the rest of the table and see if everyone is getting irritated by the antics of the other player.
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But it isn't hard to read the rest of the table and see if everyone is getting irritated by the antics of the other player.
Actually, it can be. And then there are other factors as well.
If this is the only table that someone who has been GMing for the rest of the weekend can play, no player is going to feel comfortable speaking up if that particular person is being a bit... obnoxious, because there will be a feeling of guilt/indebtedness/consideration that a normal player might not get.
In addition, if the player in question has made significant contributions either to player welfare (in the form of buying dinner/game space/whatnot) or GM welfare (in same or other means) there may also be a muted response in this regard.
I've seen this in other campaigns moreso than PFS.
It's also one of the many reasons why I'm playing in PFS rather than one of those other campaigns, and working on getting ready to GM.
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No one is going to go for the Gelatinous Cube with class levels (including a dip in Dragon Disciple) and a 30-point buy?Stop giving Kyle Baird ideas!
If only! We need more scenarios from the Care Baird!
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If only! We need more scenarios from the Care Baird!No one is going to go for the Gelatinous Cube with class levels (including a dip in Dragon Disciple) and a 30-point buy?Stop giving Kyle Baird ideas!
He might be on a PFS vacation.
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Actually, it can be.
But it isn't hard to read the rest of the table and see if everyone is getting irritated by the antics of the other player.
There is a simple, if not always easy, solution to determining if anyone else is having a problem. That is to ask the people at the table if anyone else is having a problem (see step#1 from the list Andrew quoted earlier).
This doesn't have to be harsh and you can remove a lot of the sting with a kind delivery.
Bottom line, asking people directly is the best way to find out about their experience.
Time for a personal anecdote:
At Gen Con this year, I had a team of players all show up in the same black shirt. They all had at least Paired Opportunist if not at least one more teamwork feat. And the Rogue had Butterfly Sting. The Arcane Caster would D-Door them up to the Big Baddy, and they would go to town and usually down the Big Baddy in less than a round.
Two of their number didn't do anything for 2 encounters that should have been tough for sub-tier 10-11.
So I stopped it for a second and let the table know what I was observing. And I said, "Now I think what you guys are accomplishing is neat to watch. I haven't seen a teamwork setup work that effectively before, so this is entertaining. But these two <pointed at the other two players> haven't done anything. And I want to make sure they are ok with that." The two players confirmed it was fine.
So they had another trick apparently. The arcane caster would cast fog cloud and everyone had Fog Cutting Goggles on. But they obviously were a team that enjoyed the "tactical battle" aspect of the game. So I upped my tactical game and ended up giving them a challenge in a couple encounters that weren't really what I thought were the most challenging.
They thanked me afterwards. And if I hadn't already had the next special set up with a different group, they wanted to sit at my table for the next special as well.
The point of my anecdote, is that I brought it right out in the open. I wanted to make sure that everyone was ok with what was happening. They were, and we moved on. Everyone, including myself, had fun.
So even if you can't read the table, asking outright is definitely a valid solution.
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Actually, it can be.
But it isn't hard to read the rest of the table and see if everyone is getting irritated by the antics of the other player.
There is a simple, if not always easy, solution to determining if anyone else is having a problem. That is to ask the people at the table if anyone else is having a problem (see step#1 from the list Andrew quoted earlier).
This doesn't have to be harsh and you can remove a lot of the sting with a kind delivery.
Bottom line, asking people directly is the best way to find out about their experience.
Depends the type of people you play with. For example a common midwest attitude is to not complain about issues, act like everything is fine, and NEVER come back silently.
I try to connect with the people in my community so I can learn their issues and I try to make an effort to talk with everyone to understand where they stand. You often have to connect with them on a personal level to get how they feel.
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Depends the type of people you play with. For example a common midwest attitude is to not complain about issues, act like everything is fine, and NEVER come back silently.I try to connect with the people in my community so I can learn their issues and I try to make an effort to talk with everyone to understand where they stand. You often have to connect with them on a personal level to get how they feel.
In particular the first part, there are sections of the Midwest where gaming is STILL recovering from the 'D&D Scare' of the mid to late '80's.
Folks can be terrified to say *anything* because dangit, they're *playing* at a *table* (or online/whathaveyou) and if they say something they might get dis-invited from playing at that table.
This also makes it hard to identify when a group is being abusive and when it's 'just good clean fun'. The abused parties keep their mouths shut (because they don't want gamer-ostracism) and the abuser parties continue on as if nothing is wrong because 'hey, if there was a problem, all someone would have to do is SAY something, right?'. This comes with an unspoken assertion that if someone DOES speak up, well, they're probably the 'problem' rather than the true offending party.
It took playing in PFS to identify this issue with a campaign I had been GMing for since 2002, on and off, having left a couple of times when the abuse reached a point where I couldn't put up with it, and getting sucked back in because they needed GM or organizational assistance.
It takes a perceptive GM that's on top of their game to see through that tangled mess, and then a socially adept GM to finagle a way to get the concern aired without derailing the entire session.
It's possible to do, I'm just saying that it is neither cut and dried nor the 'slam dunk' that some folks seem to think it is.
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This also makes it hard to identify when a group is being abusive and when it's 'just good clean fun'. The abused parties keep their mouths shut (because they don't want gamer-ostracism) and the abuser parties continue on as if nothing is wrong because 'hey, if there was a problem, all someone would have to do is SAY something, right?'.
So what? Shut up, don't say anything, everyone be on double secret probation because you MIGHT be offending someone?
What is this supposed to advance except paranoia?
This comes with an unspoken assertion that if someone DOES speak up, well, they're probably the 'problem' rather than the true offending party
No, it comes with the unspoken assumption that people are not mind readers.
It comes with the unspoken assumption that there is no one true standard of conduct to adhere to, and going past that
And yes, there is every possibility that someone is being too sensitive. It happens. Not all complaints are legitimate.
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This also makes it hard to identify when a group is being abusive and when it's 'just good clean fun'. The abused parties keep their mouths shut (because they don't want gamer-ostracism) and the abuser parties continue on as if nothing is wrong because 'hey, if there was a problem, all someone would have to do is SAY something, right?'.So what? Shut up, don't say anything, everyone be on double secret probation because you MIGHT be offending someone?
Is that really the only alternative? How about just reminding ourselves to do a bit of self-reflection from time to time? 'Hey, I just realised I'm the only player that's spoken for the last 20 minutes, I'll sit back for a bit.' 'Hey, no-one laughed at my last three jokes about women in chainmail bikinis, maybe I won't tell any more.'
What is this supposed to advance except paranoia?
Respectfulness and inclusivity.
This comes with an unspoken assertion that if someone DOES speak up, well, they're probably the 'problem' rather than the true offending partyNo, it comes with the unspoken assumption that people are not mind readers.
I think Wei Ji was implying that it was the person who was nervous of speaking up who was making the unspoken assumption. We just need to be aware that this is common human nature in some places (it certainly is in the UK).
And yes, there is every possibility that someone is being too sensitive. It happens. Not all complaints are legitimate.
But some are.
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At Gen Con this year, I had a team of players all show up in the same black shirt.
What a fascinating anecdote. And they all fit?
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Many people take insults and choose to not respond to them ignore them on their demeanor. Sometimes you may never know. I have talked to a few people that quit things I met up with later and silently left because they did not want to deal with the offense or bring it up as it can create bigger issues.
I have people I will refuse to play with, but I make it known and why.
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What is this supposed to advance except paranoia?Respectfulness and inclusivity.It fails.
It is not actionable. It furthers neither of those things.
All that's being asked (if I interpreted the earlier post correctly) is that people think about the consequences of their words and actions when interacting with others. I don't see what the problem is.
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All that's being asked (if I interpreted the earlier post correctly) is that people think about the consequences of their words and actions when interacting with others. I don't see what the problem is.
No. Whats being asked is that you actually SEE every possible consequence of future action (and non action) and how it affects people. HUGE difference.
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So then, I start running a game and find out that one of the characters does a minimum of twenty something damage at level one. Every fight. What am I suppose to do? Especially when I know that time is already stretched thin by the module. I feel like my only options are to suffer through it, or risk everyone else's fun by taking up time that we do not have. And what if we are at minimum table size?
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So then, I start running a game and find out that one of the characters does a minimum of twenty something damage at level one. Every fight. What am I suppose to do? Especially when I know that time is already stretched thin by the module. I feel like my only options are to suffer through it, or risk everyone else's fun by taking up time that we do not have. And what if we are at minimum table size?
Stick up for yourself! You have just as much of a right to a good time as the other people at the table, and if this person is dominating a scenario that thoroughly, it may well be that others are suffering through it as well. It doesn't have to be a serious confrontation, it could be something as little as asking the player to dial it back just a bit. As long as you're being honest and bringing it up in a respectful way, you should be fine.
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No. Whats being asked is that you actually SEE every possible consequence of future action (and non action) and how it affects people. HUGE difference.
I can see every possible outcome. They're called divination spells. Hells, even our cleric can do that kind of magic. What are you, some dumb barbarian that doesn't believe in superstitious voodoo? I tell you...the Pathfinders the Decemvirate makes me interact with get dumber every day.
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Ehh, to put it nicely I will never sit at a table with him as a player.
But he is a very competent and intelligent person.
None of you have any idea what you're talking about. This Kyle Baird folk you keep mentioning is nothing but a huge teddy bear. He sent me on an adventure deep into the Round Mountain, and further on a quest for the Ten themselves. Both were such softballs I have no idea where these ideas come from.
Or maybe you're all just incapable.
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No. Whats being asked is that you actually SEE every possible consequence of future action (and non action) and how it affects people. HUGE difference.I can see every possible outcome. They're called divination spells. Hells, even our cleric can do that kind of magic. What are you, some dumb barbarian that doesn't believe in superstitious voodoo? I tell you...the Pathfinders the Decemvirate makes me interact with get dumber every day.
WHO SAYS THUNDERLIPS! HAD MEAT SWEATS? WHO?
SNIDE! THUNDERLIPS! ENJOYS THE VOODOO THAT YOU DO SO WELL.
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WHO SAYS THUNDERLIPS! HAD MEAT SWEATS? WHO?
SNIDE! THUNDERLIPS! ENJOYS THE VOODOO THAT YOU DO SO WELL.
Who are you? Have we met? You musn't have been any more memorable than the rest of the pleebs that we keep recruiting.
Including this strange individual that I swear was cursed to become a living gelatinous cube. How odd.
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Ehh, to put it nicely I will never sit at a table with him as a player.
But he is a very competent and intelligent person.
None of you have any idea what you're talking about. This Kyle Baird folk you keep mentioning is nothing but a huge teddy bear. He sent me on an adventure deep into the Round Mountain, and further on a quest for the Ten themselves. Both were such softballs I have no idea where these ideas come from.
Or maybe you're all just incapable.
Round Mountain... Nothing about that place should give pause to any Pathfinder. If this is the best these Care Bairds can inflict, I see no reason to worry.
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WHO SAYS THUNDERLIPS! HAD MEAT SWEATS? WHO?
SNIDE! THUNDERLIPS! ENJOYS THE VOODOO THAT YOU DO SO WELL.
Who are you? Have we met? You musn't have been any more memorable than the rest of the pleebs that we keep recruiting.
Including this strange individual that I swear was cursed to become a living gelatinous cube. How odd.
..........
...........
WUT?
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Round Mountain... Nothing about that place should give pause to any Pathfinder. If this is the best these Care Bairds can inflict, I see no reason to worry.Ehh, to put it nicely I will never sit at a table with him as a player.
But he is a very competent and intelligent person.
None of you have any idea what you're talking about. This Kyle Baird folk you keep mentioning is nothing but a huge teddy bear. He sent me on an adventure deep into the Round Mountain, and further on a quest for the Ten themselves. Both were such softballs I have no idea where these ideas come from.
Or maybe you're all just incapable.
Yeah, seriously. I pretty much spent my honeymoon down there. Sort of. Okay, pretty sure I never got married, but still, I count it.
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So then, I start running a game and find out that one of the characters does a minimum of twenty something damage at level one. Every fight. What am I suppose to do? Especially when I know that time is already stretched thin by the module. I feel like my only options are to suffer through it, or risk everyone else's fun by taking up time that we do not have. And what if we are at minimum table size?
If time is stretched thin, and/or you are at a minimum table size, it might be a good thing that one of the players brings a powerful character to the table. Fights won't last as long and there is greater chance of success for all of the characters.
Until you see the character played, you have no way of knowing if it is going to ruin anyone's fun.
For what it's worth, I'm playing a game with a friend of mine in which she is running a wayang cavalier. She is 5th level and my character is 2nd level. Her charging attack is something like +15 (3d6+40/x3). We are all having a great time just setting up charges for her. My 2nd-level hunter has an attack of +4 (1d8+3). But I am still having a great time. I can cast feather step on the cavalier's dog, or I can cast entangle on the bad guys, and there is still a lot of role playing to be done!
Oh, I forgot to mention, there are only four of us, so we have three PCs and a pregen. And my friends are new parents, so it is better if scenarios run on the short side rather than the long side. Exactly the situations you described. We are all having fun.
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So then, I start running a game and find out that one of the characters does a minimum of twenty something damage at level one. Every fight. What am I suppose to do? Especially when I know that time is already stretched thin by the module. I feel like my only options are to suffer through it, or risk everyone else's fun by taking up time that we do not have. And what if we are at minimum table size?
You can talk to the person. Ask that they not "turn it on" with every fight. Perhaps he doesn't have to power attack every time. Hopefully there are other things he can do. If not, hopefully the module has things that will challenge him (AM BARBARIAN who tanks all mental stats will have craptacular WILL saves, normally)
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"Don't worry about it, THUNDERLIPS! It will all be ok"
The Rat Pimp(tm) tries to calm the big Ulfen down. "Say, that's a mighty fine glow you got on your nethers, there!"
IT IS A BEACON FOR ALL THE LADIES!
IT IS A LIGHTHOUSE FOR LOST SHIPS!
IT IS A FLOODLIGHT OF FREEDOM!
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"Don't worry about it, THUNDERLIPS! It will all be ok"
The Rat Pimp(tm) tries to calm the big Ulfen down. "Say, that's a mighty fine glow you got on your nethers, there!"IT IS A BEACON FOR ALL THE LADIES!
IT IS A LIGHTHOUSE FOR LOST SHIPS!
IT IS A FLOODLIGHT OF FREEDOM!
Given that you're andoran, it's also probably your primary thinking apparatus.
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Given that you're andoran, it's also probably your primary thinking apparatus."Don't worry about it, THUNDERLIPS! It will all be ok"
The Rat Pimp(tm) tries to calm the big Ulfen down. "Say, that's a mighty fine glow you got on your nethers, there!"IT IS A BEACON FOR ALL THE LADIES!
IT IS A LIGHTHOUSE FOR LOST SHIPS!
IT IS A FLOODLIGHT OF FREEDOM!
THUNDERLIPS! NOT ANDORAN! THUNDERLIPS! ULFEN! MALODOROUS JUST MAKE BEST CASE TO BUST HEADS. ALSO BETTER BEER AND LARGER LODGE IMPROVEMENT BUDGET.
THUNDERLIPS! THINK WITH HEAD, NOT ASPARAGUS. THUNDERLIPS! THOUGHT EVERY PERSON KNOW THIS. MAYBE TALDOR DO THINGS FUNNY, LORD HUGEBOTTOM.
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You can talk to the person. Ask that they not "turn it on" with every fight. Perhaps he doesn't have to power attack every time. Hopefully there are other things he can do. If not, hopefully the module has things that will challenge him (AM BARBARIAN who tanks all mental stats will have craptacular WILL saves, normally)
My point here will be only tangential to the thread, but it is applicable, particularly in the context of Jack's comment about.
Simply asking a player to not do something can go a LONG way. I was running a scenario recently, and a player seated next to me was always trying to do something - make a skill check, speak with an NPC, take some action, etc.
A few times during the game, I quietly turned to him and said, "okay, but first, let's see if anyone else wants to do something before you do." And each time, he said, "sure, no problem."
Sometimes, players DO know they are doing too much or doing everything, and will do what you ask. Sometimes, they aren't aware of it, really, and might likely stop.
And, if you get the player who knows he or she is doing it and still deliberately continues because, you know, the rules allow it, there isn't much to be done.
But, I have found that asking a player to sort of tone it down now and then, or for an encounter or challenge to take a back seat to another character, works pretty well.
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AC is definitely not the measure of I win character brokenness. Its just one of many defenses. If you have a high AC then you are probably susceptible to something else. I have a lvl 12 barbarian who actually bumps every other form of defense but AC. When going all out has an AC of 12. Sure, you can hit him anytime you want but he will hit you first every time. A lot of GMs find it hard to play lets trade HP with a 200HP Barbarian.12?
THAT ARMOR CLASS IS WAY TOO HIGH. TRUE WARRIORS WEAR NOTHING BUT MAGIC SILK THONGS INTO BATTLE!
Rukk agrees with THUNDERLIPS!
No point in dodging attacks when they only tickle.
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All that's being asked (if I interpreted the earlier post correctly) is that people think about the consequences of their words and actions when interacting with others. I don't see what the problem is.What is this supposed to advance except paranoia?Respectfulness and inclusivity.It fails.
It is not actionable. It furthers neither of those things.
"Rukk is jealous of mighty THUNDERLIPS! And likely wants his own continual flamed schlong. Who is the mythical creature known as a 'GM' that would allow such a thing, and what sort of moron would deign fondle the obelisk of such a mighty man?"
'I bet the ladies do dig that... Maybe I can one up the fool... What clever spells can I use... ?'
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So, I was recently on another site discussing a build that is by the rules 100% legal and it's legal with PFS as far as I can find too. However, one person was like "That wouldn't fly at my table in PFS." and so now I wonder, if your character follows all the rules, can a GM just outright say "I don't care if your character is valid and legal, I don't like it" or does that go beyond 'expect table variation'?
For reference, we were discussing how the whip is a one-handed slashing weapon, and is therefore a legal choice for a bladebound kensai magus. A bladebound kensai magus centered around the whip is going to be so pathetic for the first few levels, and even after that it's a very feat-intenstive build just to be half-way decent. But, it's legal.
I was recently running a table where someone had some multi-classed halfling melee type, that did nearly 50 points of damage per attack and had an armor class or 40 with a touch AC of 35. I don't know if this was legal or not but had I known this before I would have not allowed him to play that character. That character alone broke the scenario as he could essentially run it himself.