alexd1976: Yes - you can still take mental actions. So you can think: "Oh s~$$! I'm paralyzed!" and scream inside all you'd like as you descend to the ground, or continue to drift along in the direction you were flying if it is decided that Paralyze does not negate the Fly spell. But you have no control over your physical movement per RAI. (Paralyzed means no physical control over yourself, hence why they stipulate that you can still take mental actions.)
Basing your entire (pages long) argument on an assumption that magical flight is a mental action is just that - it's an assumption you are making. The RAW does not state it, so any decision - for or against - is an assumption, which falls to a GM to determine for their table and play style.
This thread was to try and get a FAQ so there might be a more concrete RAW to go by.
Are you saying no mental actions exist in the game?
Paralyze calls it out, and names it. It's convenient to ignore if you want to make an argument that a magical spell requires a control method other than mental ("ANYTHING BUT MENTAL" they shout, over and over...).
If not mental, then what? Don't just shoot down my ideas, offer alternatives.
I ask again, how does one control Fly? As the current rules aren't clear enough, lets look at this:
"Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as..."
Using...
Requires only...
Concentration.
Is the meaning of this somehow unclear?
The precedent already exists for using Move actions for non-physical actions, see: any spell with a concentration duration.
The Fly spell makes reference to the Fly skill. It in no way calls out any dependency on it.
I'm looking at what IS there, not making stuff up based on what is missing.
I'm not trying to say using Fly is a free action, simply that you can continue to use your available actions (like Move), mentally, to act while paralyzed-for example directing your magical flight.
Your mind is free, your options are VERY limited, but there are options.
I feel like I have single-handedly beaten this topic to death, so I'm gonna go look at some other threads now, maybe the one where people are faster than birds.
alexd1976: Yes - you can still take mental actions. So you can think: "Oh s~$$! I'm paralyzed!" and scream inside all you'd like as you descend to the ground, or continue to drift along in the direction you were flying if it is decided that Paralyze does not negate the Fly spell. But you have no control over your physical movement per RAI. (Paralyzed means no physical control over yourself, hence why they stipulate that you can still take mental actions.)
Basing your entire (pages long) argument on an assumption that magical flight is a mental action is just that - it's an assumption you are making. The RAW does not state it, so any decision - for or against - is an assumption, which falls to a GM to determine for their table and play style.
This thread was to try and get a FAQ so there might be a more concrete RAW to go by.
Are you saying no mental actions exist in the game?
Paralyze calls it out, and names it. It's convenient to ignore if you want to make an argument that a magical spell requires a control method other than mental ("ANYTHING BUT MENTAL" they shout, over and over...).
The precedent already exists for using Move actions for non-physical actions, see: any spell with a concentration duration.
The Fly spell makes reference to the Fly skill. It in no way calls out any dependency on it.
I'm looking at what IS there, not making stuff up based on what is missing.
I'm not trying to say using Fly is a free action, simply that you can continue to use your available actions (like Move), mentally, to act while paralyzed-for example directing your magical flight.
Your mind is free,...
Paralyze says that you can take purely mental actions. Having the ability to do something does not mean that that thing must exist anywhere. You could have an ability that says 'does not apply to creatures with gubblemumps subtype.' That doesn't meant that any creature actually has that subtype. One does not determine the other. They are unrelated.
As for the Fly spell mentioning the Fly skill, I have addressed this several times and you've completely ignored my take because it doesn't suit you. How the hell can you come to the conclusion that flight is purely mental and magical, but only when you're not making complex maneuvers? Somehow, once you want to hover or move more slowly, it becomes physical, but not until that point? Please explain how you can come to that conclusion given the context of the entire game system.
@Forseti: You are absolutely right, I was attributing arguments to you that you had never made. My apologies.
Ok the back and forth argument that seems to be made is that the fly spell is transporting you (much like sitting on a floating disc spell or a mount) vs you are moving yourself (which is why it requires fly checks and being paralyzed would stop you).
Assuming the fly spell is a mount (which I personally don't agree with), we all agree that making sharp turns (and thus dex based fly checks) requires some physical component right? Wouldn't the logical conclusion then be that any turn requires at least some physical component (it is just so easy you never have to worry about making checks)? With a mount if you are paralyzed it doesn't mean the mount is going to stop running, you just can't direct it and thus force it to turn (even easy slow turns that don't require a ride check). So maybe, maybe you can go straight while flying but I see no reason to let you change direction even slightly.
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This flimsy explanation would never fly with any sane RAW binding GM.There's no such thing as a sane, RAW-binding GM. A GM who slavishly adheres only to the RAW is either insane or a robot--and a poor GM to boot!
I never mentioned about adhering to RAW only, but for us people playing at PFS, RAW is often needed to clarify abilities and effects.
Ok the back and forth argument that seems to be made is that the fly spell is transporting you (much like sitting on a floating disc spell or a mount) vs you are moving yourself (which is why it requires fly checks and being paralyzed would stop you).
Assuming the fly spell is a mount (which I personally don't agree with), we all agree that making sharp turns (and thus dex based fly checks) requires some physical component right? Wouldn't the logical conclusion then be that any turn requires at least some physical component (it is just so easy you never have to worry about making checks)? With a mount if you are paralyzed it doesn't mean the mount is going to stop running, you just can't direct it and thus force it to turn (even easy slow turns that don't require a ride check). So maybe, maybe you can go straight while flying but I see no reason to let you change direction even slightly.
Here's the argument:
No one disputes that Paralyze would stop you if you were using some form of physical flight - i.e., via wings or some such appendage(s).alexd1976 is caught up on "since Paralyze allows you to take mental actions, therefore I can continue to control magical flight because it isn't a physical control issue!" (because the flight is not being controlled by a physical appendage).
It's not a completely illogical argument IF magical flight was controlled by your mental action and that was all that mattered because "well - MAGIC!". But since the rules don't tell us, there is no RAW on it, hence the FAQ request.
Ok the back and forth argument that seems to be made is that the fly spell is transporting you (much like sitting on a floating disc spell or a mount) vs you are moving yourself (which is why it requires fly checks and being paralyzed would stop you).
Assuming the fly spell is a mount (which I personally don't agree with), we all agree that making sharp turns (and thus dex based fly checks) requires some physical component right? Wouldn't the logical conclusion then be that any turn requires at least some physical component (it is just so easy you never have to worry about making checks)? With a mount if you are paralyzed it doesn't mean the mount is going to stop running, you just can't direct it and thus force it to turn (even easy slow turns that don't require a ride check). So maybe, maybe you can go straight while flying but I see no reason to let you change direction even slightly.
Here's the argument:
No one disputes that Paralyze would stop you if you were using some form of physical flight - i.e., via wings or some such appendage(s).alexd1976 is caught up on "since Paralyze allows you to take mental actions, therefore I can continue to control magical flight because it isn't a physical control issue!" (because the flight is not being controlled by a physical appendage).
It's not a completely illogical argument IF magical flight was controlled by your mental action and that was all that mattered because "well - MAGIC!". But since the rules don't tell us, there is no RAW on it, hence the FAQ request.
The problem is, we do have clarification that even magical flight is a physical act because advanced flight maneuvers require a dexterity check. The argument then becomes, "flight is purely mental and magical, but only when you're not making complex maneuvers."
Somehow, once you want to hover or move more slowly, it becomes a physical action, but not until that point? There's nothing in the rules that works even remotely similarly.
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When you're walking, you only need a certain level of concentration for your brain to process what limb goes where, how to stay balanced, how much force to exert to move, etc.
Essentially, walking is second-nature to someone who can walk. Thus, the forward part of your brain is free to perform feats that require more concentration, such as casting spells.
I say that this is the comparison the flight spell is making. It is telling you that the use of this magical flight is instantly second nature to the one benefiting from this spell. Thus, while flying, you still have enough mental power to concentrate on casting a spell.
It doesn't make any exception to the very strict writing on paralysis where "A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act." If you remember the rule of "specific trumps general", you can make this comparison.
The general is: A paralyzed creature cannot move.
The specific "A creature under the effects of the fly spell can move even when paralyzed" does NOT exist.
Thus, a paralyzed creature cannot continue to benefit from the effects of fly. However, I would say that, also per the text of paralysis, since the creature doesn't have wings, he won't plummet to the ground. He'll just be paralyzed and floating up there.
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When you're walking, you only need a certain level of concentration for your brain to process what limb goes where, how to stay balanced, how much force to exert to move, etc.
Essentially, walking is second-nature to someone who can walk. Thus, the forward part of your brain is free to perform feats that require more concentration, such as casting spells.
I say that this is the comparison the flight spell is making. It is telling you that the use of this magical flight is instantly second nature to the one benefiting from this spell. Thus, while flying, you still have enough mental power to concentrate on casting a spell.
It doesn't make any exception to the very strict writing on paralysis where "A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act." If you remember the rule of "specific trumps general", you can make this comparison.
The general is: A paralyzed creature cannot move.
The specific "A creature under the effects of the fly spell can move even when paralyzed" does NOT exist.
Thus, a paralyzed creature cannot continue to benefit from the effects of fly. However, I would say that, also per the text of paralysis, since the creature doesn't have wings, he won't plummet to the ground. He'll just be paralyzed and floating up there.
Ah, another voice of reason enters the fray. Good luck and godspeed.
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People keep trying to inject complexity into a scenario that has none.i feel like we are the only two sane people on these forums sometimes
Insanity does that to you, or so I hear.
People keep trying to inject complexity into a scenario that has none.i feel like we are the only two sane people on these forums sometimes
At least we aren't debating jumping over a pit.
I switched sides on that one. I do that sometimes.
Take a look at Dominate Person.
Try to convince someone that it won't work while you are paralyzed.
There are spells that you control with your mind, and it takes a move action. Dominate Person is one of them. They exist. It's a thing.
If having the spell actually SAY that all it requires is concentration isn't a good enough reason to think the spell is similar to Dominate Person in this regard... I don't know.
Apparently the most obvious explanation isn't always the most obvious.
As for the argument that somehow the Fly skill controls what the spell can do... well... no.
The caster can do things with the spell that don't involve the Fly skill, so the Fly skill isn't applied (why would it be? We aren't USING IT!)
You don't need ranks in Fly to use the spell. You don't need to roll when you are flying.
The skill ONLY comes into play if you want to attempt a difficult maneuver.
I don't roll Acrobatics while walking through a door, so a penalty to the skill won't affect my ability to walk...
Same for Fly. Impose the biggest penalty in the universe to the skill.
It isn't getting used.
Saying that Fly (the spell) requires a 'physical action' CAN'T mean anything other than saying the caster is literally flapping their arms, or gesturing, or performing some other control method that isn't just concentration (like the spell says).
NOWHERE does it talk about anything even remotely like this.
So look at what the spell actually says, stop pulling stuff out of thin air just because you don't like the idea of someone being able to travel in straight lines while naked and paralyzed.
Gotta say though, this discussion is pretty entertaining. Just imagine all the situations where it's relevant: Zero.
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Ah, another voice of reason enters the fray. Good luck and godspeed.When you're walking, you only need a certain level of concentration for your brain to process what limb goes where, how to stay balanced, how much force to exert to move, etc.
Essentially, walking is second-nature to someone who can walk. Thus, the forward part of your brain is free to perform feats that require more concentration, such as casting spells.
I say that this is the comparison the flight spell is making. It is telling you that the use of this magical flight is instantly second nature to the one benefiting from this spell. Thus, while flying, you still have enough mental power to concentrate on casting a spell.
It doesn't make any exception to the very strict writing on paralysis where "A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act." If you remember the rule of "specific trumps general", you can make this comparison.
The general is: A paralyzed creature cannot move.
The specific "A creature under the effects of the fly spell can move even when paralyzed" does NOT exist.
Thus, a paralyzed creature cannot continue to benefit from the effects of fly. However, I would say that, also per the text of paralysis, since the creature doesn't have wings, he won't plummet to the ground. He'll just be paralyzed and floating up there.
So a paralyzed character gets to hover without requiring a Fly check?
As for the argument that somehow the Fly skill controls what the spell can do... well... no.
PRD - "Fly
(Dex; Armor Check Penalty)You are skilled at flying, through either the use of wings or magic, and can perform daring or complex maneuvers while airborne. Note that this skill does not give you the ability to fly."
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Take a look at Dominate Person.
Try to convince someone that it won't work while you are paralyzed.
There are spells that you control with your mind, and it takes a move action. Dominate Person is one of them. They exist. It's a thing.
If having the spell actually SAY that all it requires is concentration isn't a good enough reason to think the spell is similar to Dominate Person in this regard... I don't know.
Apparently the most obvious explanation isn't always the most obvious.
As for the argument that somehow the Fly skill controls what the spell can do... well... no.
The caster can do things with the spell that don't involve the Fly skill, so the Fly skill isn't applied (why would it be? We aren't USING IT!)
You don't need ranks in Fly to use the spell. You don't need to roll when you are flying.
The skill ONLY comes into play if you want to attempt a difficult maneuver.
I don't roll Acrobatics while walking through a door, so a penalty to the skill won't affect my ability to walk...
Same for Fly. Impose the biggest penalty in the universe to the skill.
It isn't getting used.
Saying that Fly (the spell) requires a 'physical action' CAN'T mean anything other than saying the caster is literally flapping their arms, or gesturing, or performing some other control method that isn't just concentration (like the spell says).
NOWHERE does it talk about anything even remotely like this.
So look at what the spell actually says, stop pulling stuff out of thin air just because you don't like the idea of someone being able to travel in straight lines while naked and paralyzed.
Gotta say though, this discussion is pretty entertaining. Just imagine all the situations where it's relevant: Zero.
Number of instances you've provided actual rules quotes to back up that Fly is purely mental: ZERO
Number of instances you've provided rules that imply that Fly is purely mental: ZERO
Number of examples from published material that might help to backup your creative interpretation of the rules (admittantly a stretch, but better than nothing): ZERO
Yet here we are going back and forth on the subject for some reason.
Fly DOES say that it only requires as much concentration as walking.
Fly DOES NOT say that it requires concentration only.
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I dont think that matters, to be honest. Paralysis prevents movement, but allows purely mental actions.
Fly does not state it is a purely mental action, nor does it override the restriction on movement.
Alex physical action doesn't have to mean flamboyant action. I'd probably say that flying requires leaning in a direction if you wanted to turn (about as much physical exertion as riding a segway). Nothing crazy like arm flapping or flatulence (like someone exaggeratedly proposed in a previous thread). Speaking of previous threads, I had asked in the other thread on this subject if you felt like a creature under the spell burrow could still move while paralyzed since the wording was the exact same. I think it is easier to imagine someone superman-ing while paralyzed then it is mole person-ing, but all things considered RAW they should work the same way.
Actually now that I think about it, your argument hinges on the fact that the spell telekinetically carrying you and you direct it rather than it modifying your movement type (transmutations has spells of both effects, so it could function either way). Are there any other spells you can think of that allow the recipient control over the spell? Because things like levitation have to be controlled by the caster rather than the target
By some posters' logic, snakes can't take the run action because they can't run without legs.
Since there is no facing in PF, and no concept of last-turn's-direction, you can change direction each turn without having to make a Fly check.
/cevah
Since there is no facing in PF, and no concept of last-turn's-direction, you can change direction each turn without having to make a Fly check.
/cevah
Yep. The turning rules under the Fly skill only really apply when you are trying to turn during your move, as opposed to in between turns.
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Frankly you guys are just making this stuff up. You can't point to any specific physical activity necessary for using the fly spell because there are creatures who fly without any physical capabilities at all.
Im personally not making anything up. Rather, I'm reading the rules as written and comparing it to what i believe is intended.
As written, i believe that there's zero argument for being able to fly while paralyzed. Stating how much concentration an action requires is not stating the action is purely mental, and saying it qualifies is like searching for a loophole.
Indeed, i believe it is aso rai. I dont think a spell like fly should trump paralysis.
By some posters' logic, snakes can't take the run action because they can't run without legs.Snakes don't run. The only time they move exceptionally fast is when they snap their coils.
Swimming snakes on the other hand, generally do a better job at locomotion on water or desert sand than humans.
Run? No. Take the run action? Yes.
... It doesn't and it can't without utterly contradicting the book stats of several pathfinder creatures.
Could you provide a few examples of those creatures? What stats are you talking about?
You don't need to move any part of your body to fly with the Fly spell. The spell doesn't say so, so why should you?
Still, flying is a physical action.
"Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking"
You concentrate ever so slightly... lo and behold, your legs move, it's amazing! The walking that results from that is a physical action.
You concentrate ever so slightly... lo and behold, your body soars through the air, it's magic! The flying that results from that is a physical action.
If it were anything other than a physical action, the spell would state this explicitly. Like it does with Levitate. Levitate has a maximum weight allowance based on caster level, and is explicitly controlled by a mental action. Fly grants the subject the ability to fly, limited by the subject's physical prowess. Both the subject's Strength and Dexterity come into play. It's not controlled by anyone, it's just a temporary additional means to move within the regular framework of the movement rules.
... It doesn't and it can't without utterly contradicting the book stats of several pathfinder creatures.Could you provide a few examples of those creatures? What stats are you talking about?Creatures such as the Demilich, Evil Eye, floating skulls, and others which have no body, limbs, or other similar physical capabilities. Also, as have been brought up before, the cult that chops off their arms and legs and fly around with just a body.
None of these creatures can lean, move their arms, or otherwise adjust their bodies in any meaningful physical way that corresponds to controlling their flight. In fact, they instead rely on their flight for all of their physical motion. It has to be purely mental/mystical/non-physical, otherwise these creatures couldn't move at all.
The demilich has a simple fly speed, and nowhere does it say that it acts as the fly spell, so you can't really compare what the fly spell grants you with what the demilich has. Perhaps you can say that the pure magic and will that keeps the demilich within the skull also powers its flight.
The evil eye actually has a base movement speed of 5ft, so it really does have the physical capability to move normally.
I can't really find the "floating skulls" creature, but I also didn't find any reference to the fly spell in the evil eye creature.
In any case, there's several points that cause me to believe the way that I do.
- Fly spell never states that it's a purely mental action, and makes the comparison in terms of mental ability to walking. For this reason, I believe that, with whatever controls or methods, you just need the same exertion mentally and physically that you would need walking. Whether it be a "control scheme" of bending whatever limb or flexing whatever muscle, or if it was a magical set of nerves that connect to your brain that control the magical flight, I think that the only comparison to effort you can draw is the only comparison it makes.
- Fly spell never specifically overrides the very specific restriction that says you cannot move. There's room to interpret paralysis that it only allows purely mental actions, but not movement. For this reason, even if fly was specifically a purely mental action, there would be room for argument that you couldn't fly while paralyzed.
- If they wanted to make it a purely mental action, I would think they should replace the Dex bonus on fly checks with an Int bonus for the purposes of the spell, because if you're not somehow physically doing the flying thing, why are the flight checks dex based?
- I don't believe that a level 3 spell, fly, should be better than the level 4 spell freedom of movement.
_ozy_ the only things you listed that freedom allows and flying under your interpretation doesn't is attacking and moving through solid fog. Grapple states that you can't move, but can take any action that doesn't require 2 hands. This is almost the same wording as being paralyzed so the two should act the same (whichever way you rule). Hold person is just paralysis (odd for a enchantment (compulsion) spell. I guess you are being commanded not to move?), and there is next to no difficult terrain for flying creatures (except solid fog). So yeah, for casters who don't attack and have the stilled spell the only difference is the ability to move through solid fog (oh and the whole being able to fly thing).
Wait, what?! You're willing to concede that the mystical flight of the demilich can be purely mental, but not the fly spell? So, if it cast flight on itself it couldn't actually fly using the spell?
Now that, my friend, is ridiculous.
Floating skulls are under the 'beheaded' types of pathfinder creatures.
And you still haven't addressed the cult of paraplegics that use the fly spell to move around.
- If they wanted to make it a purely mental action, I would think they should replace the Dex bonus on fly checks with an Int bonus for the purposes of the spell, because if you're not somehow physically doing the flying thing, why are the flight checks dex based?Because Dexterity is also based on mental quickness. Try this, get very, very drunk, or high, or some condition that alters your mental capabilities. Then try to play a video game or other activity that requires a lot of dexterity and tell me how you do.
Fast mental response and coordination is as much based on your mental state as it is your physical training, and has nothing to do with how smart or wise you are. That's why, despite what many people think, people who are super awesome at video games aren't necessarily the smartest or wisest people in the world. ;)
- I don't believe that a level 3 spell, fly, should be better than the level 4 spell freedom of movement.It isn't. Freedom of movement lets you completely ignore paralysis, hold person, grappling, difficult terrain, solid fog, and other conditions that hinder your movement. You can fully attack, move, and do whatever you want.
Fly lets you move if you are paralyzed, but otherwise unhindered (won't do jack if you're pinned to the ground). So no, it's not even close to being better.
Complete lack of reading comprehension for the win...
So now you are back to comparing real life logic to the game, which one of your fellow players, arguing the same point, completely bashed other people for doing? Nice... I already pointed out that if you want an in game explanation for the type of mental reactions and awareness, it is covered by Wisdom, in it's description. Your real world argument falls on it's face, please stop bringing it into the game mechanic's discussion.
As for your parapalegic cult. Being parapalegic isn't the same as being completely and totally paralyzed. They are still capable of making physical actions of some sort, or else they wouldn't be casting spells now would they? As someone mentioned, physical action doesn't have to be flamboyant, just like the action of walking can be demure or conservative.
And it all really is irrelevant, as Fly (the spell) doesn't anywhere state it is purely mental, which is a point no one on your side of the argument seems to be able to refute with rules. And it is something we need RAW, to even be able to genuinely consider that as a viable option in an exception based rule set.
Wait, what?! You're willing to concede that the mystical flight of the demilich can be purely mental, but not the fly spell? So, if it cast flight on itself it couldn't actually fly using the spell?I'm conceding the point that there's absolutely no text whatsoever on the demilich's fly speed, thus you can flavor it however you want. However, I still say that if it was paralyzed, it wouldn't be able to move as per the paralysis text.
The "paralysis" status effect is where your entire body is (usually magically) completely unable to move. Paraplegics aren't paralyzed as per the status effect, but rather being simply unable to move their legs.
And you still haven't addressed the cult of paraplegics that use the fly spell to move around.
As per the general flavor of the game, there are 6 stats. These 6 stats are broken into two sub-categories of stats: "Physical" and "mental" stats. Dexterity falls under the physical category.
- If they wanted to make it a purely mental action, I would think they should replace the Dex bonus on fly checks with an Int bonus for the purposes of the spell, because if you're not somehow physically doing the flying thing, why are the flight checks dex based?Because Dexterity is also based on mental quickness. Try this, get very, very drunk, or high, or some condition that alters your mental capabilities. Then try to play a video game or other activity that requires a lot of dexterity and tell me how you do.
Fast mental response and coordination is as much based on your mental state as it is your physical training, and has nothing to do with how smart or wise you are. That's why, despite what many people think, people who are super awesome at video games aren't necessarily the smartest or wisest people in the world. ;)
- I don't believe that a level 3 spell, fly, should be better than the level 4 spell freedom of movement.It isn't. Freedom of movement lets you completely ignore paralysis, hold person, grappling, difficult terrain, solid fog, and other conditions that hinder your movement. You can fully attack, move, and do whatever you want.
Fly lets you move if you are paralyzed, but otherwise unhindered (won't do jack if you're pinned to the ground). So no, it's not even close to being better.
Okay, I should have more said, "I don't believe that a level 3 spell should intrude open a higher level spell's niche".
in fact, freedom of movement is a very good example for my argument. It specifically provides an exception to the fact that paralyzed characters cannot move, whereas fly does not.
As per the general flavor of the game, there are 6 stats. These 6 stats are broken into two sub-categories of stats: "Physical" and "mental" stats. Dexterity falls under the physical category.Spells can imbue dexterity-based ability though while still being a separate magical force.
The Fly spell could be purely mental with a flying force. The Oracle revelations which work like the Fly spell but add magical wings which would presumably still function if you were paralyzed because paralyze doesn't cancel spell effects. So I think the Fly spell would function like this Oracle power.
Similarly a Broom of Flying provides an in-built Fly Skill bonus, and can fly independently of a rider. Since it is otherwise an inanimate object, the animating magic (similar to a Fly spell) must be a separate magical force independent of the creature/objects own motive power.
The very important points bolded.
The item is irrelevant to said argument because it has explicit statements explaining how it works. Unlike conjecture and belief regarding your opinion on how Fly works, with no actual rules to back it up. Also if you are paralyzed, you are unable to make the item function past your last command, as it is Command Word activated (in the description and by default rules). And most importantly, you aren't flying the broom is.
Being a purely mental action is a very specific concept, when the rules state something it is because those concepts are applicable (or not if an exclusion is made). There is NO such statement made in regards to the Fly spell, and the spell itself references physical statistics for its use in the default rule set.
If someone is going to argue that it is purely mental, by RAW, you need more than "I think it works this way, because it doesnt say it can't".
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The problem is, we do have clarification that even magical flight is a physical act because advanced flight maneuvers require a dexterity check. The argument then becomes, "flight is purely mental and magical, but only when you're not making complex maneuvers."Somehow, once you want to hover or move more slowly, it becomes a physical action, but not until that point? There's nothing in the rules that works...
So, to clarify...You say that it is not a physical action UNTIL you perform a complex action through the Fly SkillÉ
So, to clarify...You say that it is not a physical action UNTIL you perform a complex action through the Fly SkillÉ
The problem is, we do have clarification that even magical flight is a physical act because advanced flight maneuvers require a dexterity check. The argument then becomes, "flight is purely mental and magical, but only when you're not making complex maneuvers."Somehow, once you want to hover or move more slowly, it becomes a physical action, but not until that point? There's nothing in the rules that works...
No. It is a physical action all the time.
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Watching these two threads has been entertaining because every time I refute a point in one thread, someone inevitably tries to take their same argument to the other thread. The answer is the same whether you post here or in the other thread. RAW (and certainly RAI), you cannot overcome paralysis by flying.
The spell Fly does not grant you any special powers of telekinetic propulsion or mental levitation abilities. Rules as written, casting Fly gives the target a fly speed of 60 (40 if in medium or heavy armor) and specifies that the target cannot run while flying. Anything that happens after the effect of the spell is in place is subject to the rules of flying, not the rules of spellcasting or magic or whatever other sources people are arguing would allow it to overcome paralysis.
It follows the rules of flight, and as such, you cannot fly (flying is a move action that allows you to move up to your move speed), because paralysis prevents you from moving or acting.
Of course it's different. It's a different spell.
"You can mentally direct the recipient to move up or down as much as 20 feet each round;"
There's no such language in the Fly spell. Fly just says: "The subject can fly..."
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The spell Fly does not grant you any special powers of telekinetic propulsion or mental levitation abilities.You're joking, right? That's EXACTLY how I've always imagined that it works. How else would it work? Jet-propelled farts?
Also, if the questions was "Can you levitate while paralyzed?", do you think the answer is different?
No, I'm not joking. Your imagination doesn't trump the rules. The effect of the Fly spell is the target gets a fly speed. That's it. Since there are no specific instructions on how the target flies differently than normal flight, the rules for flying (for creatures with a fly speed) are used. Those rules do not allow for movement when paralyzed.
This is basic logic.
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Let's face it. The spell description is not very clear, which is why there is a discussion about it in the first place.
The spell description is clear. The target gains a fly speed. That is all it does. From there, we use the rules for flight, which specify that moving using flight (as all other forms of movement) is a move action. Further more, it is a movement action. You cannot move or act while paralyzed, therefore you cannot take movement action (which includes flying) while paralyzed.