how much control does suggestion allow, for example, if someone suggested to a pc that he poison his friends that night, would he do it?
how much control does suggestion allow, for example, if someone suggested to a pc that he poison his friends that night, would he do it?
First, the night should come before the spell duration expires. But also:
Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell.
Compounded with "reasonable request" should negate the spell from the start
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Actually the spell description doesn't say the suggestion must be reasonable, it says "worded in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable" If you suggest that the PC's friends are actually enemies, and the only reasonable course of action is to poison them, then I see no reason why it wouldn't work. It is a compulsion, not a charm. It is the wording that is critical.
Actually the spell description doesn't say the suggestion must be reasonable, it says "worded in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable" If you suggest that the PC's friends are actually enemies, and the only reasonable course of action is to poison them, then I see no reason why it wouldn't work. It is a compulsion, not a charm. It is the wording that is critical.
still is obviously harmful
The spell text doesn't specify harmful towards who.
And I don't see why a simply matter of wording the request would bump Suggestion up to Dominate Person.
(Also, convincing his friends are actually enemies and thus to poison them is though to accomplish in two sentences at most)
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Wow. that would hardly be equivalent to dominate person, where you control the actions of the subject. Suggestion merely provides a course of action. On the other hand saying that you can't suggest spitting on the sidewalk because that would 'harm' the PCs reputation is a total nerf.
The spell description says 'obviously' harmful. The suggestion must be worded in a way that makes the action appear to be reasonable.
You don't see why a simple matter of wording makes a difference? Because the spell description says
The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable. Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell.
But as i've pointed out this hardly makes it equivalent to dominate person.
You are correct it's not easy to accomplish a lot in two sentences, but i hardly see how this difficulty is relevant to the discussion.
"Your friends are going to kill you tomorrow. Your only reasonable course of action is to poison them tonight!" Doesn't have to be true, just has to sound reasonable. It i a compulsion, not a charm. You get a save. Make it an the spell is worthless. Fail it....
Well harmful is obviously in the physical sense, what I meant is that the restriction could extend to "obviously harmful towards others"
One trick would be "drop this spice in the party rations, it tastes really good" and handing him a poison. In this way it wouldn't be obviously harmful unless he decides to identify the substance.
Well harmful is obviously in the physical sense, what I meant is that the restriction could extend to "obviously harmful towards others"
One trick would be "drop this spice in the party rations, it tastes really good" and handing him a poison. In this way it wouldn't be obviously harmful unless he decides to identify the substance.
I should note that several creatures cause a suggestion effect with a specified command. With your narrow interpretation, most of these effects are useless.
The Succubus is an excellent example.
A succubus drains energy from a mortal she lures into an act of passion, such as a kiss. An unwilling victim must be grappled before the succubus can use this ability. The succubus's kiss bestows one negative level. The kiss also has the effect of a suggestion spell, asking the victim to accept another act of passion from the succubus. The victim must succeed on a DC 22 Will save to negate the suggestion. The DC is 22 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. These save DCs are Charisma-based.
If the victim can ignore damaging suggestions, then the above suggestion effect will virtually never work.
Well harmful is obviously in the physical sense, what I meant is that the restriction could extend to "obviously harmful towards others"
One trick would be "drop this spice in the party rations, it tastes really good" and handing him a poison. In this way it wouldn't be obviously harmful unless he decides to identify the substance.
I should note that several creatures cause a suggestion effect with a specified command. With your narrow interpretation, most of these effects are useless.
The Succubus is an excellent example.
A succubus drains energy from a mortal she lures into an act of passion, such as a kiss. An unwilling victim must be grappled before the succubus can use this ability. The succubus's kiss bestows one negative level. The kiss also has the effect of a suggestion spell, asking the victim to accept another act of passion from the succubus. The victim must succeed on a DC 22 Will save to negate the suggestion. The DC is 22 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. These save DCs are Charisma-based.If the victim can ignore damaging suggestions, then the above suggestion effect will virtually never work.
Oh but that would apply even in the most lenient case "obviously harmful towards the suggested", so Suggestion wording is the one to blame.
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Oh but that would apply even in the most lenient case "obviously harmful towards the suggested", so Suggestion wording is the one to blame.Well harmful is obviously in the physical sense, what I meant is that the restriction could extend to "obviously harmful towards others"
One trick would be "drop this spice in the party rations, it tastes really good" and handing him a poison. In this way it wouldn't be obviously harmful unless he decides to identify the substance.
I should note that several creatures cause a suggestion effect with a specified command. With your narrow interpretation, most of these effects are useless.
The Succubus is an excellent example.
A succubus drains energy from a mortal she lures into an act of passion, such as a kiss. An unwilling victim must be grappled before the succubus can use this ability. The succubus's kiss bestows one negative level. The kiss also has the effect of a suggestion spell, asking the victim to accept another act of passion from the succubus. The victim must succeed on a DC 22 Will save to negate the suggestion. The DC is 22 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. These save DCs are Charisma-based.If the victim can ignore damaging suggestions, then the above suggestion effect will virtually never work.
Well, consider this one; "I have just cast a fly spell on you. I suggest you jump off this cliff and try it out right now!" then consider "An act of passion may cause a little pain but the pleasure is immense. Let me kiss you again!"
Well, consider this one; "I have just cast a fly spell on you. I suggest you jump off this cliff and try it out right now!" then consider "An act of passion may cause a little pain but the pleasure is immense. Let me kiss you again!"
Indeed the caveat here is that it's not obviously harmful, but neither of those has anything to do with the fact that "obviously harmful" can refer to anyone rather than only the suggested.
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Well, consider this one; "I have just cast a fly spell on you. I suggest you jump off this cliff and try it out right now!" then consider "An act of passion may cause a little pain but the pleasure is immense. Let me kiss you again!"Indeed the caveat here is that it's not obviously harmful, but neither of those has anything to do with the fact that "obviously harmful" can refer to anyone rather than only the suggested.
True each suggestion must be adjudicated on a case-by-case basis. But I think the 'reasonableness' of a suggestion increases substantially when you move from the subject causing harm to himself to causing harm to associates. In either case it must sound reasonable.
I think Triggered Suggestion solves this debate. It states it acts as though suggestion except for with a triggering event. In the spells description it states you can command a guard to attack a king. Which is an act that is obviously harmful to the king. If this spell acts as suggestion but you can do that then you can use suggestion to make people attack others. The harmful line is about the recipient of the spell. You can't suggest someone stab themselves for example.
This interpretation does not make the spell as powerful as dominate person, as once the act is complete the suggestion has ended. In fact using suggestion in this way is roughly equal in power to murderous command which is two levels lower than it.