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Hum, that's so odd. It looks like, all other things being equal it's only a 5 point difference.
6 point difference since you changed the weapon. It'd be more if you'd given him a Greatsword, but that'd be too much like actually tailoring the build to what we're comparing, since the Str build isn't locked to 1H weapons like you. Or, more fairly, a Falchion.
The Str build you posted also has +1 AC and +1 Fort save.
And a 5 point damage difference is a pretty big deal anyway. Especially as the gap widens.
Next level that becomes a 10 point difference (if both are using Scimitars). At 8th level, that becomes a 12 point difference.
There's also the 2 point attack difference you conveniently glossed over since your guy has Furious Focus, canceling out the attack penalty from Power Attack. An option your Dervish Dancer cannot replicate.
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Dex to ac is also limited by the armor you wear, so dex has to add about 5 points to ac before it starts breaking even.
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Lets not forget DR!
Or the added benefit of enlarge person!
Or the spell rage!
Off the top of my head though.
Or the fact that you're able to use an area control build that would be ineffective on a dex build.
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Also, that speed increase is real nonsense.
Moving at full speed in armor is decidedly a fighter thing.
There are ways around that and many other classe can also magic out something there.
I´ve never seen a DEX to damage build that was more efficient than a STR build. And i witnessed enough of fighters (yes fighters), barbarian, inqusitors, or even alchemists deal out tons of STR damage.
Not to mention paladins.
Also all those don´t have precision damage on top of it that is sometimes canceled out.
I'm just curious, would the Dex to Damage fans be okay with a Feat that allowed Str for Init, AC, and Refl?No because strength is stronger than Dex for melee.
Its easier to boost str
Size increases add tertiary benefitsStr to AC results in bull like 30 str Hiants with 5 dex suddenly gaining 20AC.
At most I would agree that Str to Reflex and Initiative would be ok.
So that tiny wayang with reduce person with a 5 str and 30 dex doing the same thing is ok?
Man, what a double standard
Yeah, just trip him and watch him die. It's super hilarious. Alternatively just grapple him and pin him. It's not like he can resist.
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...Why?!Not just free but unoccupied and only one weapon. No torch, bite, ect. Disarmed and you have to draw another weapon and no dex to damage that round.So...from what I understand Slashing Grace now requires you to keep your other hand free to benefit from it?
Darnit now I can't play sword-and-dagger characters like Valeros! :(
Because dex-to-damage TWF is OP. And you can always make them a rogue - though it'd be awhile before you'd get dex-to-damage with both. (Yes. Yes it is OP. Only reason it isn't OP for Urogues is that the rest of the class is meh. I've already seen several high level builds which do take a 3-4 rogue dip. It says something about an ability when someone is willing to dip 3 levels almost entirely for said ability.)
Of note - you can use a buckler in your off-hand (technically off-arm - hand free). This is likely due to the 3.0 rules people not knowing anything about bucklers and realizing that they were held in hand - and us getting rules descended from them.
But - there ya' go. You can still wield a buckler with Slashing Grace.
I'm confused. I'm trying to find a way to replicate this gentleman in blue using the Vanguard Slayer. The shield just looks too small from where I'm sitting to be a Light Shield, so I assumed it'd be a buckler, and if I'm using a chain shirt like he is, then I would by necessity need high DEX, which means Weapon Finesse is mandatory. I'm not sure what I'm doing. :(
I would just say count your build as having 2 free feats that can be used at what ever else the fighter wants to be doing.
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Or, by all means, present your own. There are plenty of ways to be much more optimized. That wasn't really the point I was making, as it goes both ways.
The point that I think you missed in your comparison is that fighting with one weapon is such a sub optimal fighting style in this system that the boost you're complaining about is needed just to get on part with fighting with a two handed weapon: which is really what you should be comparing a swashbuckler or other fency type with.
Or the fact that you're able to use an area control build that would be ineffective on a dex build.
Trying out a kitsune UC rogue with an elven branched spear: Gets dex X 1.5 damage at level 3.
@BigNorseWolf
Also he made horrible build mistakes like using leather armor on a 5th level dex fighter when a Breastplate or Mithril chain shirt would have yielded a higher total bonus to AC. I'm on the side of Dex to damage, but I don't believe we gain anything by misrepresenting the facts on each build.
As for your Rogue, it sounds like a cool plan. I'm not sure if you're saying "this build is awesome check it" or "well my rogue can do area denial and get 1.5x dex!"
If A, then I like it. That's an effective use of the Rogue unique features, lets you attack from moderate safety, and is a smart strategy.
If B, then I say it's worth a shot for reasons discussed in A. I don't think it would be as good as a strength based build that does the same, but I don't think it's a bad idea unless you decide to enlarge. It's not gonna be OP that's for sure.
Trying out a kitsune UC rogue with an elven branched spear: Gets dex X 1.5 damage at level 3.
Was the 1.5x dex ever clarified?
Contributor
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Was the 1.5x dex ever clarified?
Trying out a kitsune UC rogue with an elven branched spear: Gets dex X 1.5 damage at level 3.
Yes - there's an FAQ in Unchained. ^_^
Was the 1.5x dex ever clarified?
Trying out a kitsune UC rogue with an elven branched spear: Gets dex X 1.5 damage at level 3.
Was the 1.5x dex ever clarified?
Trying out a kitsune UC rogue with an elven branched spear: Gets dex X 1.5 damage at level 3.
Nice. That looks pretty damn appealing.
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Yeah, just trip him and watch him die. It's super hilarious. Alternatively just grapple him and pin him. It's not like he can resist.
The size penalty is -2. The Dex helps with CMD. His CMD will be a full 4 points lower than the aforementioned STR 30 Hill Giant if equal BAB. If he has a brain he has maxxed out Escape Artist.
Yeah, just trip him and watch him die. It's super hilarious. Alternatively just grapple him and pin him. It's not like he can resist.The size penalty is -2. The Dex helps with CMD. His CMD will be a full 4 points lower than the aforementioned STR 30 Hill Giant if equal BAB. If he has a brain he has maxxed out Escape Artist.
I´m afraid in a world with zombies and other gourmet connaisseurs, brains are in short supply.
Why people always forget Reduce Person that nets +2 to hit and +2 to AC compared to Enlarge?
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Oh I didn't. I just already knew that the increased reach from enlarge person also gives you better utility.
Unless this is related to STR to AC argument in which case compared to enlarge it was be a net loss of 0 AC instead of two. Additionally Strength is the stronger damage stat, so str to AC and reflex would be stronger than Dex to damage.
Also the hill Giant would have a bonus to CMD due to size and immunity to a lot of CMD effects, once again due to size.
So what was OP about to dex to damage again?
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For all the griping, this errata did at least save me some money - the book now offers nothing for my PFS character, so I am no longer under any pressure to buy it....
Poor witches, losing everything appealing this book had to offer. I'd have much preferred the Spirit Talker nerf going some other way - Shamans get to cherrypick hexes from witches, it was nice that witches had the option of getting something back the other way.
I'd have been happier if the feat was turned in to a way for witches to get something off the Shaman universal hex list than with the once a day you can borrow a power for a bit, but not in a useful way, approach that they went with. 10 minutes to turn on a daily power that runs out in an hour - that is going to be reliably helpful. They have turned a fun feat in to something that will only be used for broken corner cases.
And then Hex Vulnerability no longer able to be used on Fortune, which is already less powerful than Misfortune. Said day to be a witch that doesn't want to be evil eye, misfortune and slumber spamming.
Well one thing that can be said, bloodragers are still barbarians on speed and explode all ridiculous damage things i´ve seen before.
Nobody complains about that though.
Well one thing that can be said, bloodragers are still barbarians on speed and explode all ridiculous damage things i´ve seen before.
Nobody complains about that though.
Hey all I wanted was my sith lord. More spells per day, and a means to rage to boost them. Angry magic. I didn't want this barbarian++ bizarro C'thulhu crap.
I'm not the biggest buyer of Paizo products ever but our table collectively has gone in for all 4 Bestiaries w/4 Pawn sets, 5 Full AP sets (two with pawns, maps, and card sets), CRBs & APGs for all table members, the Ultimate books (Magic, Combat, Equipment), many player companions, as well as a pile of minis. At this point, we're too financially invested to shrug our shoulders and walk away from the rule set.
On the other hand, I bought the ACG when it came out, and have the printing that reads 'Pathfinder Campaign Setting' on the cover. I dealt with the disappointment of getting a product with that error, figuring it was kind of fun actually. This errata release has invalidated a big chunk of the interior of a book with a misprinted cover, a book I paid full price for. Shall I ignore the errata, and if I do how will it effect the table's consumption of future Paizo products?
The first thing I did after getting the misprinted cover was to stop buying direct from Paizo. Now, my local hobby shop has lost out on my purchasing power as I go to outlet retailers like Amazon to save dollars on books that will likely be invalid by the time I get to use them.
I know this thread is more about specific issues with ACG mechanics, so I apologize for the possible derailment.
edit: The misprint actually says 'Adventure Path', not campaign setting. I remembered it wasn't right, but not in what way.
I'm just curious, would the Dex to Damage fans be okay with a Feat that allowed Str for Init, AC, and Refl?No because strength is stronger than Dex for melee.
Its easier to boost str
Size increases add tertiary benefitsStr to AC results in bull like 30 str Hiants with 5 dex suddenly gaining 20AC.
At most I would agree that Str to Reflex and Initiative would be ok.
So that tiny wayang with reduce person with a 5 str and 30 dex doing the same thing is ok?
Man, what a double standard
How is the tiny wayang with reduce person getting the battlefield control of an enlarged strength based fighter? Grabbing a whip and all the feats needed to make that worthwhile as well? If martial purpose was damage rather than battlefield control then there could be an argument for parity, but by the time your finesse fighter is tricked out martials are pretty much there to lock down moving threats.
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Agreed. The end result is still PFS saying "we don't like this" and the devs changing it.I feel it's not so much as PFS making them change this time and more of a developers want it to be a legal option for it and decided to change stuff.That is a distinction without a difference.Well, if PFS is saying that its saying that with a whole lot of playtesting. If you and your DM like the old version nothing is stopping you from keeping it, but its not all that unlikely that your DM and a lot of other DMs were either getting their bad guys stymied by it or raised the power level of the encounters to deal with it, possibly stomping the rest of the table who didn't have it.
Considering most of the stuff PFS-banned from the ACG was banned within days of the book's release, I rather doubt the decision was based on extensive playtesting.
Also, I find it vaguely odd that you assume that 1) I'm not a DM 2) I'm playing in a home game 3) I'm a player who's trying to take advantage of my DM's ignorance and 4) That I'm a moron who's incapable of understanding the concept of game balance.