At first level, you are a Human Sorcerer with 20 Intelligence or Charisma or Wisdom. It doesn't matter which right now, but reduce your available Spell Points by an appropriate amount. When you gain your first level in another class you can choose which stat to use as your casting stat, so pick one you like. Int for more skills, Cha to be a face, and Wisdom for just plain better Will saves. Doesn't matter what Bloodline. Replace your Arcana with a Focus Sphere (free sphere, +1 CL to that sphere). Choose Conjuration. Take 5 points worth of drawbacks to gain a Spell Point per level. At 1st level you gain 8 Spell points (1 from a level of a Caster, 5 from Cha, 1 from replacing your Bloodline spells, 1 additional from taking drawbacks). This is enough to Summon 4 Companions that last all day long. You gained Conjuration for free this time. You take Lingering Companion as your first Companions Form talent. You take Greater Summons as your Sorcerer talent, with both of your first casting class talents as Extra Companion. Use one of your first level feats on Extra Magic Talent (Extra Companion) and the other on Extra Spell Points. All Companions take Lingering Companion as their Form talents. At first level you have 5 2 HD Eidolons. That's 10 hit dice of meat shield that you can put in from if the rest of your party, and if they die, just conure them up tomorrow at full health. 10 Spell Points.
At second level take Incanter with Sphere Specialization (Conjuration). Pick up Channel Energy or a couple Domains while you're here, as you'll never see Incanter feats. You gain 2 additional Spell Points (12 total). With your three magic talents you gain from your first level of Incanter, you take Extra Companion, each with Lingering Summons. You now have 7 CL 4 Eidolons (3 HD each, 21 HD total). Unfortunately, you can only summon 6 of these Companions per day at this level. These Companions have 2 feats each that you can tailor to whatever you wish. One Companion can pick up Basic Magic and Advanced Magic, gaining any sphere, not including Conjuration. This guy can become a dragon (Alteration), be a healbot (Life), create the party's basic weapons (Creation), cast Haste on the Barbarian (Time), etc. All 7 can do this if you want. They only get 1 Spell Point each, but that changes at next level.
At third level, you're going into Thaumaturge for 17 levels, making you a 19th level character. Your favored class is Thaumaturge. Why? Because the Human Favored Class Bonus adds 1/8 to your Forbidden Lore. Why is that important? Because at 3rd level you gain Master of Cosmos as your 3rd level feat, allowing you to add your Forbidden Lore bonus to your total caster level for the Conjuration Sphere. At 3rd level this nets you an additional +2 to your CL with Conjuration (+7 at this point). You also have 14 Spell Points this level, allowing you to conure up 7 all day Eidolons.
Some time in your career, pick up an orange prism ioun stone (+1 Caster Level). At level 11, your caster level with the Conjuration Sphere is (Sphere Specialization +1, Focus Sphere +1, Ioun Stone +1, Forbidden Lore +5, Caster Level +11) 19. At CL 19, your Companions have 15 HD, 8 feats, and at least a caster level of 7 if you elected to give your Companions some magic. They also have better saves than you. Your Companions have already had 3 ability score increases while you're looking forward to your third one at 12.
At 11th level, you have a grand total of 82,000 gold. Get an Ioun Stone (Orange Prism, 30k), a headband of your casting ability modifier +4 (16k), and a Ring of Invisibility (20k). You have 16k left over. You could save up a few thousand to upgrade that headband to +6 at level 12.
You have 15 19 HD Companions at 11th level (you had to blow a lot of level feats for this). Per day you have 35 Spell Points, enough to Summon all your Companions for the day. If you wish to, you can retrain your Extra Spell Points bonus feat for Extra Magic Talent (Extra Companion), have 16 Companions, 33 spell points, and 8 Invocations for the day. You can pawn off any backlash from attempting and failing to summon your Companions on one of your Companions 8 times a day.
Everything else is gravy.
After 11th level, continue with Thaumaturge until you are at Sorcerer 1 / Incanter 1 / Thaumaturge 17 for your last bonus to Forbidden Lore. Your last level is up to you. I would choose Wizard for 2 Magic Talents (Extra Companion). I wouldn't imagine the Sphere Specialization would stack though.
At level 20,you have a caster level with Conjuration of (20 from levels, +8 from Forbidden Lore, +1 from Focus Sphere, +1 from Sphere Specialization, +1 from Ioun Stone, for CL 31). This brings you to 24 HD Eidolons. You have 25 Companions. You gain 600 HD worth of summoned creatures, all loyal to you, that you can customize to your heart's content, with caster levels up to CL 12, making them more magically powerful than a Low Caster. You end up with 60 Spell Points, you only need 50, can pass off Forbidden Lore failure up to 13 times a day, and have utterly decimated your GMs adventure.
Have fun.
kinda enjoy SoP just because you can multiclass, wish some of the later caster classes got archetypes.
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The FCBs cover the Core races, Aasimar, Tiefling, Orc, Goblin, and Merfolk.
*girl scree*
Conjuration got nerfed heavily from its original incarnation. I have not found out exactly to what extent because I haven't been playing with that sphere lately though.
I feel like destruction is still the most broken and most useless talent. Broken in the sense that it is one sphere that pretty much gives you something to do in combat all the time even when you're out of spell points. It seems ideal for conserving spell points by participating in combat without having to do something crazy or reduce yourself to using a crossbow. I find myself putting it on mook spellcaster npcs just so that they can say they're spellcasters but not do anything too threatening. Useless in the sense that it pretty much does one thing, deal damage, and not as well as a lot of other options. Granted focusing on it does some crazy numbers, pound for pound its probably the weakest sphere due to it's nature.
Path of War on the other hand... while I am of the opinion that the Harbinger and the rest of the expanded material is completely fine in a normal pathfinder game. With spheres I think a Harbinger who used a trait or tradition to grab Hourglass or another solid control discipline would completely blow a sphere caster out of the water when it comes to debuff/control roles. As for Warlord and Warder, I believe it has been shown that at levels 1-10 they are likely to make the barbarian feel small in his pants when it comes to damage. At least until the errata for Blade and Fury arrives. I might just limit Path of War to the Myrmidon Fighter (who is still really badass, but still strictly weaker than a warlord) and the Hidden Blade rogue (who is still a rogue, probably an unchained rogue).
I can't really say too much about Sphere of Power right now, since I'm still in the process of fully digesting the new system. I have some knee-jerk reactions about Illusion, Destruction, and partial caster levels for 3/4 casters, but I can't formulate an educated opinion without actually trying it out.
I do feel like I have enough experience with Path of War to talk about it, though.
Firstly, I don't think a harbinger, alone, will blow the sphere casters out of the water. The debuffs offered by Cursed Razor, while potent, is still limited in nature, and the single-hit +Xd6 damage imitates what a destruction sphere caster might be able to do with one of his element + debuff rider options. The major issue is Shattered Mirror - if you allow enemies to keep their powerful SLAs, Shattered Mirror becomes an exceedingly powerful discipline. For balance, you can put limits on what kinds of effects it can steal, deny, turn into aura, and switcheroo around, or just give Harbingers an alternate discipline in place of Shattered Mirror.
Warder and Warlord - the base classes - are not the issues with Path of War if you are comparing DPR between the PoW classes and, say, Barbarians. A Warder has less offensive bonuses compared to a myrmidon fighter, has similar recovery mechanisms (Warder is better, but they both need a full action to do a great recovery), and a Myrmidon only needs to spend feats on Advanced Study to catch up with the Warder in maneuver level. Warlords are much more offensively focused, but their offensive bonuses are still small compared to the fighter, and their signature gambits tend to help the entire party when they increase damage.
If you are concerned with Path of War DPR, a myrmidon fighter can achieve the same thing due to the aforementioned disciplines, as well as Thrashing Dragon. If you are looking to limit damage before it occurs, I would instead do the following:
- Don't ban Warders or Warlords. The base classes are not the issue.
- Limit the following boosts to only apply for the first attack:
- All Solar Wind boosts that add +Xd6 fire damage to all attacks.
- All Primal Fury boosts that add +10/+20/+40 damage on charge.
- Sharpened Talons and Unbreakable Talons
- All Broken Blade boosts that add +Xd6 to each attack.
- Possibly Night's Knife
- All Solar Wind boosts that add +Xd6 fire damage to all attacks.
- Halve the damage bonus on Broken Blade boosts that add an extra attack.
- Limit Dragon Assault to a maximum of +2d6 damage.
- Change the following stances:
- Primal Warrior Stance only increases effective weapon size by 1.
- Battle Dragon Stance only adds initiation mod to damage, not 1d6+IM. Reduce TWF penalties by 1 instead of by 2.
- Broken Blade Stance does not stack with haste or anything else that gives additional attacks (like Broken Blade boosts).
- Solar Wind Stances are okay.
- Primal Warrior Stance only increases effective weapon size by 1.
- Enforce the FAQ that Scarlet Throne's multiplier strikes do not multiply bonus damage from boosts or stances.
I think this eliminates most of the high-damage interactions that you can get from PoW (actually, I might have nerfed broken blade a bit too much). This list unfortunately expands if you include PoW:Expanded, so I would recommend - as a general rule - that you just audit player sheets if they decide to use PoW and ask them to not exceed a certain DPR threshold. That way, players can use the high-power Primal Fury maneuvers if they want to make unconventional builds (like DEX Sword-and-Board), and built towards versatility instead of max damage if they use one of the more powerful styles.
Limiting the base classes won't do much, though - with PoW, it really is the maneuver-boost-stance interactions rather than the classes that create the damage spike, and you'll find that a myrmidon with the right maneuver choices isn't any different than a Warder with the same.
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Yo! I'm the author of Akashic Mysteries, and one of the authors of the Spheres of Power: Expanded Options release.
I just wanted to chime in and note that we actually have been running Akashic Mysteries and Spheres of Power side-by-side for some time, and they work excellently together. Spherecasting replaced vancian in our games some time ago. We've been running the Iron Gods AP from Paizo, and our current party consists of a Daevic, Eliciter, Gunslinger (Techslinger), Symbiat (Synapse), and Vizier. It's been going really well so far.
For crafting, we run it that the Vizier can replace sphere effects by adding 3+ the number of sphere talents in the effect's prereqs to the crafting check.
At first level, you are a Human Sorcerer with 20 Intelligence or Charisma or Wisdom. It doesn't matter which right now, but reduce your available Spell Points by an appropriate amount. When you gain your first level in another class you can choose which stat to use as your casting stat, so pick one you like. Int for more skills, Cha to be a face, and Wisdom for just plain better Will saves. Doesn't matter what Bloodline. Replace your Arcana with a Focus Sphere (free sphere, +1 CL to that sphere). Choose Conjuration. Take 5 points worth of drawbacks to gain a Spell Point per level. At 1st level you gain 8 Spell points (1 from a level of a Caster, 5 from Cha, 1 from replacing your Bloodline spells, 1 additional from taking drawbacks). This is enough to Summon 4 Companions that last all day long. You gained Conjuration for free this time. You take Lingering Companion as your first Companions Form talent. You take Greater Summons as your Sorcerer talent, with both of your first casting class talents as Extra Companion. Use one of your first level feats on Extra Magic Talent (Extra Companion) and the other on Extra Spell Points. All Companions take Lingering Companion as their Form talents. At first level you have 5 2 HD Eidolons. That's 10 hit dice of meat shield that you can put in from if the rest of your party, and if they die, just conure them up tomorrow at full health. 10 Spell Points.
At second level take Incanter with Sphere Specialization (Conjuration). Pick up Channel Energy or a couple Domains while you're here, as you'll never see Incanter feats. You gain 2 additional Spell Points (12 total). With your three magic talents you gain from your first level of Incanter, you take Extra Companion, each with Lingering Summons. You now have 7 CL 4 Eidolons (3 HD each, 21 HD total). Unfortunately, you can only summon 6 of these Companions per day at this level. These Companions have 2 feats each that you can tailor to whatever you wish. One Companion can pick up Basic Magic and Advanced Magic, gaining any...
Can someone please tell me that this is b*@&%*+*? That this is not actually a thing you can do?
Cause I was thinking of getting SoP too, but not if it manages to somehow be more broken than regular vancian casting. This is Simulacrum levels of b~@*!$*+.
conjuration got the nerf bat hard i think. particularly i think to the number of summons you can get, but i don't have my copy in front of me.
Conjuration got a nerf in that it costs a point to Summon, a point to have the creature remain without concentration, and only gain 1 free Form talent.
For the above build, you get the above classes with the options presented, spend a feat on Master of Cosmos at 3rd level. Your first level nets you 5 Companions that last all day long (Greater Companion as one of your talents, with Lingering Summons as each Companions Form talent). After that, grab Extra Companion with your feats and Thaumaturge levels.
It is a stupid build, and if any GM allows it, he deserves what he gets, though the other players at the table don't.
You can nerf this build by banning Master of Cosmos (-8 CL to Conjuration). You can further nerf it by telling your player to play a straight Sphere Summoner.
k well, you still only have 8 points and summoning 5 takes 5 points, and the 5 traditions giving you more points probably make you pretty weak compared to what you can do.
you could i guess use a standard to concentrate for one of them...
Not 5 traditions, 5 drawbacks that cover all your casting classes. Any 5 will do that don't kill your HP in the process.
Somatic x2, Prepared Casting, Magical Signs, and Focus Casting are 5 that don't hurt you in this build.
It's still a build your GM will ban.
Not 5 traditions, 5 drawbacks that cover all your casting classes. Any 5 will do that don't kill your HP in the process.
Somatic x2, Prepared Casting, Magical Signs, and Focus Casting are 5 that don't hurt you in this build.
It's still a build your GM will ban.
yes, i thought drawbacks were under the traditions banner
though i do imagine a guy dancing with like a gold star in his hand as he screams at the top of his lungs, while magic swirls around him...
Yes. But you don't need to select a tradition if your GM doesn't ask you to. If you have a permissive GM, which is what this build is all about, then you can select your own drawbacks and pick the best 5.
"The classic flavor of the Wizard can be recreated using the Classical Casting tradition."
Spheres of Power does a really good job of being balanced over what it can do and how it goes about doing it. But just like the Core Rulebook, if your GM allows certain combinations things can get out of hand. Your GM is there to facilitate a story. You are there to assist in that, along with a number of your friends. If you can't play nice, don't play at all.
Yes. But you don't need to select a tradition if your GM doesn't ask you to. If you have a permissive GM, which is what this build is all about, then you can select your own drawbacks and pick the best 5.
"The classic flavor of the Wizard can be recreated using the Classical Casting tradition."
okay i just assumed the whole time those were guides on "how to make this" or examples, i assumed the rest of the chapter was what traditions were about 'W'
Spheres of Power says right in the first few pages that while it is a great book for players, it does even better for helping a GM flesh out the magical abilities of his world. There's an example of Avatar in there, with the GM creating the world only allowing the Destruction and Nature spheres, and having casters select traditions he created and classes he approved. It is as much a GM resource a a player.
With Core, you could hand a player a list of spells that are banned. This way, you say which Spheres are banned and the list is so much shorter and simpler.
Also, you can say this is similar to allowing/not allowing Gunslingers in your campaign because it's based on the Stone Age and mysticism. No technology, yada yada.
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Conjuration got a nerf in that it costs a point to Summon, a point to have the creature remain without concentration, and only gain 1 free Form talent.
For the above build, you get the above classes with the options presented, spend a feat on Master of Cosmos at 3rd level. Your first level nets you 5 Companions that last all day long (Greater Companion as one of your talents, with Lingering Summons as each Companions Form talent). After that, grab Extra Companion with your feats and Thaumaturge levels.
It is a stupid build, and if any GM allows it, he deserves what he gets, though the other players at the table don't.
You can nerf this build by banning Master of Cosmos (-8 CL to Conjuration). You can further nerf it by telling your player to play a straight Sphere Summoner.
Master of the Cosmos only adds +6 to your effective caster level, and it doesn't scale that high until 17th level.
Each companion is a unique creature. You can summon your 1 companion, 5 different times throughout the day, but you only ever have the one companion you get for taking the Conjuration sphere. To have more than one conjured companion, you have to take the Extra Companion talent, and then each form talent you take only applies to one specific companion, so having 5 companions that last all day at once would require at least 15 conjuration talents (something that would only be possible for a character with 17 levels of Thaumaturge to get if the other 3 levels were Incanter), so there's no way a first level character can have 5 companions that last all day long. Also, even if you leveraged all your resources to get those 5 companions, you wouldn't have them all until 20th level, and they'd suck since they wouldn't have any good form talents.What I'm getting at, is that it would pretty much take a single-classed Incanter to get have enough talents for 5 decent (nowhere near individually as good as an eidolon) companions, and he'd be spending all his resources on it. The "trick" described above wouldn't require a permissive GM, it would require a GM willing to ignore the actual rules on conjuration on several fronts.
Each Companion gains a Form Talent for free. You gain a free Companion by taking the Conjuration Sphere as one of your talents.
A human at level 1, taking his first level as a class that gets the Casting class feature, gains 2 bonus magic talents. The Incanter grants an additional 2 at first level. A Sorcerer grants 1 at first level. The human also gets 2 bonus feats at first level. Assuming you wish to go the Conjuration route, you take Sorcerer for 4 magic talents (Focus Sphere: Conjuration). You spend 1 on the Conjuration Sphere, granting you a free Companion with a free Form talent. The chosen talent is Lingering Companion.
Next you take Greater Summoning as a talent. For your first companion, you can Summon him once for 2 Spell points, dismiss and summon him again for free. This costs 2 Magic Talents so far.
Next, you use a third Magic Talent to pick up Extra Companion. Your second Companion has one free Form talent. He gains Lingering Companion.
Use your fourth Magic Talent for Extra Companion. This gives you 3 Companions. Same as the first and second, this one gains a free Form talent. I chose Lingering Companion here again.
Burn a feat for another Magic Talent to pick up Extra Companion again. Same as Companions 1-3.
You give up your Sorcerer Bloodline Arcana to gain a Conjuration talent, plus get the whole Sphere at a +1 Caster Level.
At this point, you have 5 Companions, all that last all day long. You also have a Spell Point cost of 10 Spell Points to allow them to remain all day long. With a 20 Charisma (+5), gaining a level in a casting class (+1), gaining an extra Spell Point from having at least 1 drawback, gaining another Spell Point for giving up your Sorcerer bonus spells, and finally using your human bonus feat for Extra Spell Points, you have enough to cover costs.
Remember, there is no Summon Monster I through IX. And if you go this route, you leave your character back at square 1 using his crossbow each round.
Unlike the menagerie master Summoner with each Eidolon splitting up his class level, each Conjuration Companion runs off your total caster level.
Yeah, I was confused too. I was wondering how you get 5 all day companions at level 1. That takes 11 talents and a feat to actually do
(1 for the Conjuration Sphere, 4 for the extra companions, 5 for each of them to have Lingering Companion, 1 for Greater Summoning.) plus Master of Cosmos works for Thaumaturge and only goes up to +6 at lvl 17 and only determines how strong the companions are. Even before the nerfhammer I don't think you could get a bunch of five companions at lvl 1.
[edit] looking above I have to look at my doc to see if that's possible but what you're describing looks like 5 companions that don't do anything so if is possible I'd allow it.
Master of Cosmos, in this build, adds +2 to your caster level for the Conjuration Sphere at 3rd level, since it is at that point you gain your first level of Thaumaturge and his Forbidden Lore class feature.
To stack it up, at third character level we have a Caster Level of 3 from class levels, +1 from Sorcerer Focus Sphere, +from from Incanter Sphere Specialization, +2 from Thaumaturge's Forbidden Lore and Master of Cosmos. That's a total of CL 7 to Conjuration.
You take 17 levels of Thaumaturge for the total +6. While you are doing that, you pick up the Human Favored Class Bonus for Thaumaturge, which gives an additional +1/8 bonus to Forbidden Lore, maxing out at +8 at 17th Thaumaturge Level.
Pick up an Orange Prism Ioun Stone for an additional +1 to Caster level.
At 20 the level your total CL with just Conjuration is
20 from levels
+1 from Sorcerer
+1 from Incanter
+8 from Forbidden Lore
+1 from the Ioun Stone
= CL 31
See this thread for how I came up with this.
If somebody shows up with this character at your game, make like a politician and deny everything.
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Each Companion gains a Form Talent for free. You gain a free Companion by taking the Conjuration Sphere as one of your talents.
A human at level 1, taking his first level as a class that gets the Casting class feature, gains 2 bonus magic talents. The Incanter grants an additional 2 at first level. A Sorcerer grants 1 at first level. The human also gets 2 bonus feats at first level. Assuming you wish to go the Conjuration route, you take Incanter for 4 magic talents. You spend 1 on the Conjuration Sphere, granting you a free Companion with a free Form talent. The chosen talent is Lingering Companion.
Next you take Greater Summoning as a talent. For your first companion, you can Summon him once for 2 Spell points, dismiss and summon him again for free. This costs 2 Magic Talents so far.
Next, you use a third Magic Talent to pick up Extra Companion. Your second Companion has one free Form talent. He gains Lingering Companion.
Use your fourth Magic Talent for Extra Companion. This gives you 3 Companions. Same as the first and second, this one gains a free Form talent. I chose Lingering Companion here again.
Burn a feat for another Magic Talent to pick up Extra Companion again. Same as Companions 1-3.
Then you give up your Sorcerer Bloodline Arcana to gain another Conjuration talent, plus get the whole Sphere at a +1 Caster Level.
At this point, you have 5 Companions, all that last all day long. You also have a Spell Point cost of 10 Spell Points to allow them to remain all day long. With a 20 Charisma (+5), gaining a level in a casting class (+1), gaining an extra Spell Point from having at least 1 drawback, gaining another Spell Point for giving up your Sorcerer bonus spells, and finally using your human bonus feat for Extra Spell Points, you have enough to cover costs.
Remember, there is no Summon Monster I through IX. And if you go this route, you leave your character back at square 1 using his crossbow each round.
Okay, I see what you're doing. No offense, but you kind of spewed out a bunch of "first level, this, first level that" without breaking down what you were actually doing.
It's important to note that these are not "eidolons". They don't get evolutions, and it costs magic talents to elevate them beyond ineffective meat shields. The trick described doesn't give you 5 eidolons, it gives you 5 NPC warriors at 2/3 your class level. And when they die, they're gone for the day. You're basically creating a Summoner who doesn't get any spells to go along with his SLA, and who can only summon really, really weak allies. Except the Summoner would have better BAB and proficiencies :P
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Pick up an Orange Prism Ioun Stone for an additional +1 to Caster level.
Of some note, Caster Level for spherecasters is totally different from Caster Level for Vancian casters. It's generally not recommended that you cross over options between the two.
Also, each time you use Forbidden Lore there's a 15% chance that the spell fails and you take a cumulative -1 to attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and to effective caster level, which lasts until
you rest to regain spell points. If it fails, you've also lost the spell point(s) used to summon. Amongst 5 castings, one of those is very likely to trigger this. Then you've got to cast again, still suffering that 15% failure chance. It gets real risky.
Those are some pretty good meat shields though. At first level, you have 5 of them at 2 hit dice each. They have feats they can take to make them better. Plus, they work using your full caster level, not split up like the archetyped Summoner I mentioned earlier. They have more hit dice than you, more feats than you, progress quicker than you. But your right, they don't get any Eidolon Evolutions. (Cough Alteration Sphere Cough).
How much HP do they have? I'm missing what kind of Hit die they have. I'm guessing d8s because thats what they had before.
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Those are some pretty good meat shields though. At first level, you have 5 of them at 2 hit dice each. They have feats they can take to make them better. Plus, they work using your full caster level, not split up like the archetyped Summoner I mentioned earlier. They have more hit dice than you, more feats than you, progress quicker than you. But your right, they don't get any Eidolon Evolutions. (Cough Alteration Sphere Cough).
You have to have talents and spell points for the alteration sphere. You've got 5 critters with +3-+5 to hit, and AC ranging from 13-17 (17 requiring you to use the slow serpentine form), at the cost of literally everything else you can do for the day :/
It's impressive in numbers only, and standard summon monster effects are going to outscale it very fast (especially from dedicated conjurers like the Summoner).
Those are some pretty good meat shields though. At first level, you have 5 of them at 2 hit dice each. They have feats they can take to make them better. Plus, they work using your full caster level, not split up like the archetyped Summoner I mentioned earlier. They have more hit dice than you, more feats than you, progress quicker than you. But your right, they don't get any Eidolon Evolutions. (Cough Alteration Sphere Cough).You have to have talents and spell points for the alteration sphere. You've got 5 critters with +3-+5 to hit, and AC ranging from 13-17 (17 requiring you to use the slow serpentine form), at the cost of literally everything else you can do for the day :/
As I said. If they don't do anything then I'm fine allowing 5 all day companions at level 1. Especially if that's pretty much the only thing you can do.
all day? no 1 minute per caster level, otherwise they need to concentrate for each one, which is a standard.
Each Companion spends their first feat on Basic Magic Training, gaining a Sphere and a single Spell Point at CL 1. At 3 HD they take Advanced Magic Training.
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Each Companion spends their first feat on Basic Magic Training, gaining a Sphere and a single Spell Point at CL 1. At 3 HD they take Advanced Magic Training.
Again, sounds good on paper, not great in real play. The base forms all have mental ability score arrays of 7, 10, 11, so the only sphere they can use effectively is Alteration, for a minute a day. So, the whole group is taking their first turn to maybe snag an extra natural attack, and the ones still alive on the next round can use it... and then have nothing to do in future combats. 1st level is basically the high point of the trick, and it still doesn't offer the versatility and utility of summon monster.
Advanced Magical Training does nothing because companions don't have any class levels.
all day? no 1 minute per caster level, otherwise they need to concentrate for each one, which is a standard.
When you spend a Spell Point to allow this companion to remain for 1 minute per caster level without concentration, you may spend an additional Spell Point to allow it to remain for 1 hour per level instead. If you also possess the Greater Summoning Talent, your Companion instead remains for one day, only disappearing when you rest to regain Spell Points. Once you have spent a Spell Point to summon such a creature for a full day, you may dials and re-summon this Companion at will without having to spend an additional Spell Point.
So, scratch first level. It's 4 Companions, spending both feats on Extra Spell Points for a total of 12 Points, allowing you to get 4 Companions, at a caster level of 2, for 2 HD each. Or just summon as needed.
This reduces the whole shebang by quite a bit, but it doesn't undercut the potential of Conjuration.
Yes, I screwed up by missing that other spell point per Companion for an all day summon.
Now I need to spend some time, again, calculating just how much I can get out of this. Up to 34% fewer Companions for 50% more Spell Points.
Each Companion spends their first feat on Basic Magic Training, gaining a Sphere and a single Spell Point at CL 1. At 3 HD they take Advanced Magic Training.Again, sounds good on paper, not great in real play. The base forms all have mental ability score arrays of 7, 10, 11, so the only sphere they can use effectively is Alteration, for a minute a day. So, the whole group is taking their first turn to maybe snag an extra natural attack, and the ones still alive on the next round can use it... and then have nothing to do in future combats. 1st level is basically the high point of the trick, and it still doesn't offer the versatility and utility of summon monster.
Advanced Magical Training does nothing because companions don't have any class levels.
A Companion has one feat at first level and gains another at every odd Hit Die. A Companion can take PC or monster feats it qualifies for. While a Companion may gain casting ability through feats such as Basic Magic Training and Advanced Magic Training, a Companion can never possess the Conjuration Sphere.
This implies Advanced Magic Training works.
I think the "such as" part disqualifies that sentence from denoting RAI.
At best I think the army of companions line of building is going to get you a bunch of meat shields that are in one shot range. One thing that I think is ambiguous is that raising your caster level past 20 looks pointless as there is no progression past that point.
If I were to nerf something I'd remove Lingering Companion as a form talent. That or if you're willing to run around with a blank slate companion by choosing Lingering as it's form then you could just get rid of the free form with each companion.
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If I were to nerf something I'd remove Lingering Companion as a form talent. That or if you're willing to run around with a blank slate companion by choosing Lingering as it's form then you could just get rid of the free form with each companion.
Lingering is a little weird, and probably shouldn't have the form descriptor. I think the idea was to make it so that lingering only applied to one creature per instance, but it does create some wonkiness.
As one of my particularly powerful players put it "I don't think Path of War belongs in a world without full casters."
Even with the upcoming Primal Fury, Broken Blade, Black Seraph, Thrashing Dragon, ect nerfs I don't think Path of War would be balanced in a world where the casters are sphere casters.
The listed Disciplines and possibly a few more add more damage than they are supposed to. They are going to get nerfed so they provide less damage.
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I fail to see how PoW isn't balanced against SoP. Neither provides game-changing power (though PoW does provide tons of damage) that would make either more or less effective and reasonable than the other.
What exactly is it about PoW that supposedly makes it only balanced against Paizo spellcasters? Remember that all PoW classes are T3 at the absolute highest.
See that's where you used the Tier system incorrectly.
Tiers determine how many things you are good at, not how good you are at any of those specific thing.
For example a Bard is tier 3 because it does well in multiple roles and can lead the narrative with its various abilities.
A Fighter is Tier 4 because it's only good at one specific niche, killing something.
If we took said fighter and just plain gave him 20 more BAB, he'd still be tier 4 eve though he's doubled his number of attacks and power attack bonus. The Fighter is still only good at killing things, though now he's good at it to the point where he can kill anything in one round.
Arguments like "they're only tier three" only show a misunderstanding of the tier system.
Back on to your other questions now that I cleared that up.
Spheres casting actually takes away game changing power from casters. Spheres is a straight up nerf to casting that drops the tier of all the casters. We have casters who have been mostly stripped of their narrative power put on a playing field where their competition out damages them, has more variety in the ways they can tackle combat in a day, is generally more durable than them, ect.
Sure some Spheres do give narrative power, but not enough to balance the extreme focus that Path of War classes carry.
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I will say, the Creation sphere is roughly as powerful as your imagination, so it's probably on par or better than what Vancian casters get in the right hands (at least for the first half of the game).
Path of War does have some pretty potent stuff that's balanced towards Vancian casting though. There's a 9th level Iron Tortoise maneuver that is literally (though paraphrased) "as an immediate action, absolutely any harmful effect an enemy would use against you and/or your adjacent allies, regardless of its power or source, just doesn't work". Most initiators will be able to re-ready that maneuver every round, so it's pretty much Crane Wing with a power level over 9000. Given how much more difficult it is for spherecasters to chain multiple spells together than Vancian casters, I can kind of see what ID's getting at. Path of War creates martials that belong in the same world as Vancian casters, and Spheres of Power creates casters who belong in the same world as most core martials (Ranger, Paladin, Cavalier, etc.). They may kind of pass each other going in opposite directions, though since I haven't run both side-by-side at the higher levels of play like I have SoP and Akashic Mysteries, I can't say for sure.
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For the most part, though, PoW stuff's only real strength is that it's good at DPR, and it gives versatility and options to types of characters that desperately needed it.
SoP takes the classes that were previously ruining the game and brings them down to a more manageable level.
I don't see how these things aren't congruent. Yes, some of the top end PoW stuff is ridiculous, and some of the SoP stuff can vary greatly in narrative power. If anything, that sounds like they're both around the exact same level, to me.
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For the most part, though, PoW stuff's only real strength is that it's good at DPR, and it gives versatility and options to types of characters that desperately needed it.
SoP takes the classes that were previously ruining the game and brings them down to a more manageable level.
I don't see how these things aren't congruent. Yes, some of the top end PoW stuff is ridiculous, and some of the SoP stuff can vary greatly in narrative power. If anything, that sounds like they're both around the exact same level, to me.
Yeah, like I said, I can't really say how well balanced they are to each other during the latter half of the game, I just see where ID's coming from. Invulnerable Shell of the Iron Tortoise is some "Tier 1", turn off the sun because I have light sensitivity s*&~. If the challenge/enemy can only seriously threaten you 1/round, your whole party can effectively ignore it. I'm just plucking that out as one of the obvious examples, there may be more. I can't say for certain whether PW and SoP meet in the middle or pass each other heading opposite directions, I can just kind of see where opposing design principles could potentially be problematic.
A little note about tiers: I actually consider most sphere casters to be closer to T4 than T3, looking back at the 3.5 warlock. They do get more options over time than the warlock does, but also need to spend more of their talents to reach the power that certain invocations might give you. Some spheres (alteration being a major example) do give enough versatility to bump them up to low T3, but I feel that they still do not compare against, say, Bards.
I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of paizo's PF T4 classes can break spherecasters apart if you decide to include them, starting with the Paladin and the Bloodrager.
As for Path of War:
I guess when theorycrafting a Myrmidon can perform most "broken" combos that a Warlord or Warder can pull off, but my guess is that in real play the limited maneuvers readied and maneuvers known, as well as having to spend feats to gain "level appropriate" maneuvers and stances will limit those combos. So that the Myrmidon is still in line with a Barbarian, Alchemist, Mageknight, Armorist, or Daevic. While one of the Path of War base classes would be more likely to claim the spotlight and keep it.
Just a note - most of the maneuvers that grant PoW characters their biggest boost in martial capability are found in level 2 or 3.
I hate saying this (since I really love Path of War), but if you are concerned with PoW balance with spherecasting, I would recommend not even using the myrmidon or the hidden blade, especially if you are also using the PoW expanded disciplines.
It's not really that difficult to find maneuver combinations that break the damage cap of even the most optimized natural attack melee in Pathfinder. Solar Wind, Thrashing Dragon, Primal Fury, and Broken Blade (and if you add expanded, Tempest Gale, Mithral Current, Piercing Thunder, and Elemental Flux) are all potent damaging disciplines with low-level boosts and maneuvers that can outclass, say, a Bloodrager with 4 natural attacks at low levels. All of these maneuvers are accessible by anyone, even the two archetypes you mentioned, without too much difficulty - and a simple Myrmidon with dual-weapons and Thrashing Dragon can output damage that equals an AM Barbarian at that level.
The same actually goes for quite a few of Paizo's ACG classes, too.