Improved Overrun (Combat) & Mount with Pounce (Ex)


Rules Questions

The Exchange

Mounted player has the Improved Overrun feat:

Overrun wrote:
Benefit: As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square

and the player's mount has pounce:

Pounce wrote:
When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability)

The way I read this, is that the player uses the full-round action to charge through an opponent's square, while the mount pounces the opponent after they are prone.


I just noticed that Overrun, per RAW, doesn't work with a Charge, since it takes a Standard Action to perform an Overrun, which cannot be done with a Full-Round Action like Charge in the same turn.

If the Player had Pounce, and the Mount had overrun, then the Mount could Overrun the creature, and the Player could Pounce the prone character.

Of course, that's per RAW. Mounted Combat rules are all over the damn place, you don't know what way is up.

The Exchange

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I just noticed that Overrun, per RAW, doesn't work with a Charge, since it takes a Standard Action to perform an Overrun, which cannot be done with a Full-Round Action like Charge in the same turn.

Except, the first line of Overrun talks about how you use it in a charge...

Core Book, pg 201 wrote:


Overrun
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of
a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving
through its square


Charge wrote:
You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent.
Overrun wrote:
you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square

RAW, you no longer meet the requirements to make the charge attack against the target of your overrun. (nothing in overrun delimits this)


Dysfunction wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I just noticed that Overrun, per RAW, doesn't work with a Charge, since it takes a Standard Action to perform an Overrun, which cannot be done with a Full-Round Action like Charge in the same turn.

Except, the first line of Overrun talks about how you use it in a charge...

Core Book, pg 201 wrote:


Overrun
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of
a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving
through its square

Using it as part of a charge doesn't mean you can use it in a charge, nor does it discount you needing to spend a Standard Action on top of the Full-Round Action needed to perform the charge in the first place. Additionally, the rules of Charge wouldn't permit you to move into a square the Enemy already occupies, because you must move to the closest space you can hit the enemy, so even if you claimed it to be stackable, the rules of Charge and the rules of Overrun would contradict each other, because one allows you to move through an enemy, and the other requires you move to the closest adjacent space apparent from your starting position.

Additionally, the rules of Mounted Combat would also not permit you to let your Mount use Overrun, because you are both considered Charging if even one of you takes the Charge Action.

Let me tell you how it would go down in a PFS scenario:

Quote:

GM: It's your turn, what do you want to do?

Player: I'm charging Creature Y.
GM: Okay, that takes a Full-Round Action. Movement seems legit, go ahead and put your piece at the closest adjacent space and roll your attack.
Player: I'm actually using the Overrun maneuver.
GM: You declared to charge Creature Y, that's a Full-Round Action to do. The Overrun maneuver requires a Standard Action to Perform.
Player: But it says I can do it as part of a Charge.
GM: Yes, as a Standard Action. And you already used a Full-Round Action to Charge. You don't have a Standard Action left to perform the Overrun. Now roll your attack.
Player: If it says I can do it as part of a Charge, why am I not allowed to do it as part of a Charge?
GM: Because them's the breaks. You can't spend a Standard Action and a Full-Round Action in the same round unless you have some special ability allowing you to do that. Now quit holding up the game and roll your attack.

This is like the situation with Grab and Attacks of Opportunity, and it took a FAQ to reverse the otherwise obvious RAW, where it takes a Free Action to perform a Grab, and you cannot take Actions outside your turn unless they are Immediate Actions, or specify otherwise, just like there is no language permitting you to circumvent the other rules problems allowing you to both Charge and Overrun at the same time.

If anything, it's a misnomer for Overrun to be considered a Standard Action, because performing an Overrun without actually moving first doesn't even work right. It should be a Full-Round Action, allowing you to move up to your speed and making a check against all of those in your path.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Improved Overrun (Combat) & Mount with Pounce (Ex) All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.