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Thats correct. But combine ALL of the following
Gender is different than sex
There is no gendered behavior
There are no gender rolesThen what is gender? It seems to have been left as almost a null set.
It looks like a null set because you're making large assumptions. For example, just because many places in Golarion don't have mandatory gender roles doesn't mean everywhere in Golarion does not have them. Cheliax is a lot more conservative than Varisia, for example. Also, just because a society says women HAVE to be bakers (and that only women can be bakers) doesn't mean they don't have a tradition or tendency towards women being bakers. Just because society doesn't REQUIRE certain things from groups does not mean those groups don't exist or have meaningful traditions (we also say that most nations in Golarion don't racially discriminate (aside from some xenophobia), but that doesn't mean a Mwangi merchant is the same person as an Andoran merchant and that there's no cultural difference between them).
Also, gender is very different from gender roles. Gender is about your relationship to yourself and your world. Gender is about how you understand yourself, and possibly how your brain handles the chemicals it receives. Gender roles are about defining (or at least suggesting) a person's place in the world based on that gender (ie: You can have butch trans women mechanics, and they're still women).
While I fully believe that society exaggerates it (often to harmful levels) I find the idea that its entirely manufactured to be beyond unlikely. The degree is unnatural. The trend is not.
We have half of the population soaking in a chemical known to cause aggression, violence, and (over) confidence along with the mechanisms to use that chemical right down to the cellular level. How on earth could that not result in some changes in behavior?
It does result in behavior changes, but they're not universal. There's no one dosage of testosterone men receive from their gonads, or even necessarily a steady supply, and everyone starts at a different time. Half the population doesn't "soak" in testosterone; some men have a lot, other men have very little, and that creates a wide range of it's side effects. And some men are raised or naturally equipped to better handle those side-effects than others.
And this ignores the fact that women's bodies also produce androgens to varying levels. They produce testosterone (sometimes in surprisingly large amounts) and also produce progesterone, which like testosterone causes arousal, aggression, and confidence.
And all of this assumes a person has perfectly-formed gonads producing those hormones. Subtle intersex conditions (which affect about 1% of the population), cysts, and other quirks in biology can radically alter what you would think a person's body should do.
Speaking as someone who had to study endocrinology well enough to explain it to her doctors, while there are certainly some biochemical trends based on physical sex organs, the variation within a sex is far larger than the variation between different genders
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I'm not suggesting ignoring it. I'm suggesting understanding that it's not natural, and consciously rejecting it.
While I fully believe that society exaggerates it (often to harmful levels) I find the idea that its entirely manufactured to be beyond unlikely. The degree is unnatural. The trend is not.
We have half of the population soaking in a chemical known to cause aggression, violence, and (over) confidence along with the mechanisms to use that chemical right down to the cellular level. How on earth could that not result in some changes in behavior?
Hormones affect different people differently, or all men would be violent, egotistical, and deficient in the ability to think rationally. And no women would be violent, egotistical, and deficient in the ability to think rationally.
Yeah, on average, people with Y chromosomes are more likely to be violent. So what? That doesn't mean that that should be treated as normal, rather than simply common. That doesn't mean that roles should be prescribed for them, that people who behave in ways that are less common should be treated as deviant, that people who don't have Y chromosomes should be discouraged from professions that require aggression.
There's zero reason that gender has to be the dominant way that we organize societies and prescribe appropriate behavior. It's a mode of thinking that came along with agriculture. It's not a necessity.
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You can still have people who won't accept that who they think of as their daughter or sister is really their son or brother. Even without conflict you can still have an old acquaintance who doesn't know about the transition. You can still have someone still trying to transition or affected by what had to be done to get there.In this context: Gender is the sex in your head. When it doesn't match the sex in your body, there is internal conflict - the body doesn't match who you are. Gender Dysphoria.And in our world that unfortunately results in far external conflict. On golarion with little if not no gender roles and orientation isn't that big of a deal that conflict would be almost entirely internal and thus VERY hard to bring out.
Easily. There are people who are otherwise fine with the gay or trans community who balk at their child being one. It's hard to change that mental image of someone you've known for years (it took me a long, long time to get used to the guy who took me to prom transitioning to a man). And again, just because our world has a tendency towards acceptance doesn't mean the setting is universally accepting; bigots still exist; they just don't get as much screentime or relevance unless their hate turns to villainy.
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Woah wait hold up, so not only are you guys saying gender roles or gender identity do not exist in Golarion, but it's impossible for a "transphobic character" to be a "hero" or anything more than some mud-farming a@#+$!*?
Doesn't that seem... You know... Kind of boring? History is rich with examples of a@%%@$@s-turned-heroes, or people becoming paragons of a gender-specific ideal or hell, people breaking out of their gender roles to become something great.
When you say bigots = bad, gender roles do not exist and men = women in everything forever and ever, you're eliminating a hell of a lot of depth you can explore with not just a character concept, but with your own setting.
At least the good thing is you guys can't force DMs to portray the setting - even if it's "your" setting - to exclude these things from their game, which seems like the ideal stance to take on this issue; worked for Jade Regent when you guys said "All NPCs are assumed bisexual until stated otherwise", should work here.
Still, it would help to know *where* gender roles exist in Golarion, how they exist, and what kind of races or nations feel about people who don't fit into the gender binary.
It does result in behavior changes, but they're not universal. There's no one dosage of testosterone men receive from their gonads, or even necessarily a steady supply, and everyone starts at a different time.
*headscratch*
I always get confused by explicitly talking about a trend in a population, and then getting a response as if I'd said it was deterministic for every individual. This time right down to using the same word to describe it, a trend.
Also, gender is very different from gender roles. Gender is about your relationship to yourself and your world. Gender is about how you understand yourself, and possibly how your brain handles the chemicals it receives. Gender roles are about defining (or at least suggesting) a person's place in the world based on that gender (ie: You can have butch trans women mechanics, and they're still women).
So if gender is your relationship to yourself, and your relationship to your world, and gender roles is your relationship to the world.. wouldn't that just make gender roles part of gender?
It looks like a null set because you're making large assumptions. For example, just because many places in Golarion don't have mandatory gender roles doesn't mean everywhere in Golarion does not have them. Cheliax is a lot more conservative than Varisia, for example. Also, just because a society says women HAVE to be bakers (and that only women can be bakers) doesn't mean they don't have a tradition or tendency towards women being bakers.
But the less ironclad a trend is the less it says about someone. If a society has gender balanced adventuring its probably gender balanced just about everything else. If Chelaxian Bakers are 60/40 or 70/30 having one of the 40 doesn't tell you much about them.
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Easily. There are people who are otherwise fine with the gay or trans community who balk at their child being one. It's hard to change that mental image of someone you've known for years (it took me a long, long time to get used to the guy who took me to prom transitioning to a man). And again, just because our world has a tendency towards acceptance doesn't mean the setting is universally accepting; bigots still exist; they just don't get as much screentime or relevance unless their hate turns to villainy.You can still have people who won't accept that who they think of as their daughter or sister is really their son or brother. Even without conflict you can still have an old acquaintance who doesn't know about the transition. You can still have someone still trying to transition or affected by what had to be done to get there.In this context: Gender is the sex in your head. When it doesn't match the sex in your body, there is internal conflict - the body doesn't match who you are. Gender Dysphoria.And in our world that unfortunately results in far external conflict. On golarion with little if not no gender roles and orientation isn't that big of a deal that conflict would be almost entirely internal and thus VERY hard to bring out.
To riff off the note that supportive folks can also find it difficult to change their mental image of someone they know, and that there’s a chance that people might be unexpectedly nasty, I find it easy to imagine that similar situations to those I encounter in the real world might pop up. Even if the internet would make it really easy for my whole social world to know, in theory, there are very many people who I don’t think it’s important to tell about my own transition, based on my estimate of how close we are or were and the likelihood of our meeting again. That said, my professional world is small-ish, so there’s a fairly good chance that I might run into one of those people again and they’ll get the news when they see a new nametag and hear new pronouns attached to me at a conference somewhere. In that context, I’m fairly sure that they’ll be civil, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t get nervous, or that they don’t feel awkward too, and if there was somebody around with heroic fantasy levels of the ability to Sense Motive, I’m sure that person would be able to pick up a hunch that something was going on. :)
I imagine similar situations could arise in Golarion with any number of fairly fluid or wide-ranging groups that are likely to appear in print. The Pathfinders travel a lot, and may not communicate much all that frequently outside of fairly tight-knit circles. I can imagine someone returning to the Grand Lodge, or any given local Lodge, after a few years and not quite recognizing someone. Or, while the same sorts of people might make up the local and visiting dignitaries that make up high society in Absalom, there’s enough ebb and flow over the seasons that someone might disappear for a bit and then reintroduce themselves to “society” (in the snobby sense) with just the vaguest memories of their last appearance, but wait, X is fairly certain that they remember that Y was gender Z … Or, in places where the so-called movers and shakers tend to come from established families, like Cheliax and Taldor, politics might be byzantine and families have commitments wide-spread enough that where it’s fashionable to be and which second cousin is at court in any given year changes enough that it’s difficult to keep track of everyone.
Presto! In this adventure, while our daring adventurers infiltrate the masquerade party being held by Lord So-and-so, trying discreetly to figure out if he’s planning a coup against the queen, they see some folks who look suspiciously nervous. But that quiet young nobleman is just fretting about whether he’ll run into someone who’ll recognize him from the last time he was in the capital, when he was still unhappily presenting as a woman in society, someone whom he hasn’t told. Maybe none of those guests would be nasty about it, but he doesn’t know that, and in the meantime, it’s still awkward. If the PCs follow up this false lead, will they resolve it gently and quickly enough to be able to find the actual villains in time? (Phew! I managed to work around to the actual subject of trans men in Pathfinder (at least, how they might fit into the stories folks tell in-game). ;) )
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Woah wait hold up, so not only are you guys saying gender roles or gender identity do not exist in Golarion, but it's impossible for a "transphobic character" to be a "hero" or anything more than some mud-farming a%~!@&&?
Doesn't that seem... You know... Kind of boring? History is rich with examples of a!&&&~%s-turned-heroes, or people becoming paragons of a gender-specific ideal or hell, people breaking out of their gender roles to become something great.
When you say bigots = bad, gender roles do not exist and men = women in everything forever and ever, you're eliminating a hell of a lot of depth you can explore with not just a character concept, but with your own setting.
We have said literally none of this. You are bringing this wholeclothe to the conversation.
I never said heroes can't be flawed; I explicitly said their bigotries don't get much screentime until they develop into doing things that negatively affect other people. Paizo doesn't really push the "lovable misogyniost hero" trope, but we've presented a number of morally questionable heroic characters, and villains with sympathetic motives.
Still, it would help to know *where* gender roles exist in Golarion, how they exist, and what kind of races or nations feel about people who don't fit into the gender binary.
These things are expressly described in out books. Inner Sea Races discusses the gender divide for most of of the races it presents, for example. A lot of our geography-based books will include mention of gendered roles if they're important.
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So if gender is your relationship to yourself, and your relationship to your world, and gender roles is your relationship to the world.. wouldn't that just make gender roles part of gender?
No, gender is how you relate to the world, and gender roles are how the world relates to you, and people in your subset. One is an internal force that can affect external experiences, and the other is an external force that can affect internal experiences.
Let's try it this way: You're a parrot. You like being a clever, brightly plumed, tropical avian. The society you live in says that parrots ride on shoulders, eat crackers, and laugh evilly while proclaiming "Sixteen men on a dead man's chest."Most parrots in the society you live in do these things (maybe they're forced to, or maybe they like to, or maybe they're mostly neutral on these things but just do them because that's how it's always been done). Even if you don't engage in these parrot roles, you don't stop being a parrot. If you like bananas and trees, you don't stop being a parrot and instead be a monkey because the society you live in says monkeys live in trees and eat bananas.
Alternatively, you are a man and a fighter, and travel to an island of amazon warriors. In their culture, their gender roles say only women are fighters, and men are healers. You don't stop being a man on this island, in your eyes or theirs, just because you don't fit a masculine gender role. Next you travel to an island that has absolutely no gender roles. Your fighter is still a man. Because that's how you view yourself and how you relate to your experiences.
Let's try it this way: You're a parrot. You like being a clever, brightly plumed, tropical avian. The society you live in says that parrots ride on shoulders, eat crackers, and laugh evilly while proclaiming "Sixteen men on a dead man's chest."Most parrots in the society you live in do these things (maybe they're forced to, or maybe they like to, or maybe they're mostly neutral on these things but just do them because that's how it's always been done). Even if you don't engage in these parrot roles, you don't stop being a parrot. If you like bananas and trees, you don't stop being a parrot and instead be a monkey because the society you live in says monkeys live in trees and eat bananas.
I can understand being a parrot that likes cackling "Sixteen men on a dead man's chest."
I can understand being a parrot that doesn't like cackling "Sixteen men on a dead man's chest."
I can understand a monkey thats really a parrot that likes cackling "Sixteen men on a dead man's chest."
My brain breaks when we get to the monkey thats really a parrot but doesn't ride on shoulders or eat crackers, or laugh evilly while proclaiming "Sixteen men on a dead man's chest."
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But the less ironclad a trend is the less it says about someone. If a society has gender balanced adventuring its probably gender balanced just about everything else. If Chelaxian Bakers are 60/40 or 70/30 having one of the 40 doesn't tell you much about them.
I guess, but I don't find that too disturbing. I mean, I try not to assume anything about other women I might meet, even if I think I have a reasonably good sense for the stereotypes in my part of the world of what women are like. What should the fact that I am, or anyone else is, a woman, tell other people?
I'm not sure I would be comfortable with being more dogmatic about anything beyond the fact that that's how we identify, bearing in mind all the historical baggage that comes with it (and, to be positive about it, the good stuff too), as well as how the societies we grew up in influenced our ideas about the possibilities of gender (both our own and in general). As much as it often seems frustratingly circular, it really does seem that, socially speaking especially, a lot of gender is as gender does. (Or performs. One of these days I'll actually read Judith Butler. :) )
I mean, how would anyone plausibly sort out what parts of being a woman, or how much of those parts, everyone (most everyone? how many are enough for what purposes?) agrees come from the things women might have in common physiologically speaking, say, and those they share because that's how most people do being a woman in their society?
Also, I did like Ms. Frasier's last post, for a less abstract way of looking at things than my ramblings.
Still, it would help to know *where* gender roles exist in Golarion, how they exist, and what kind of races or nations feel about people who don't fit into the gender binary.
Awhile ago, I read a post here about a woman who was a new player to gaming, and so her concept was that she was a woman who was always told the whole 'barefoot and pregnant is all you are good for' shtick, but that she fought hard and rose above it to be an adventurer. The GM was like "uhh... that won't work... Golarion isn't like that" because there really was no place in Golarion that he knew of that was that sexist... But, based on the fantasy and sci-fi tropes we've grown up with, she expected this new world she knew nothing much about to have a place like that.
Is it great that Golarion is a happy place of total gender equality? Yes, I really do think it is... However, especially when dealing with players who expect it to not be and make a character that rises above the inequality... what should that GM have told her?
Then as to the topic of transgender/gender fluidity, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the empyreal lord Arshea yet... As I understand it, isn't it part of her tenets to be be genderfluid, at least for awhile? Experience life as a man, experience life as a woman, then decide which is right for you.
Also, on the topic of gender roles in popular fiction, if you haven't already do check out the "Chicks in Chainmail" series (Chicks in Chainmail, Chicks and Chained Males, The Chick is in the Mail). It's a series of books with short stories about women who defy the fantasy tropes (not just the chainmail bikini trope the series is named for) in funny ways.
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My brain breaks when we get to the monkey thats really a parrot but doesn't ride on shoulders or eat crackers, or laugh evilly while proclaiming "Sixteen men on a dead man's chest."
Because to that monkey-who-is-a-parrot, riding on shoulders, eating crackers, or laughing evilly while proclaiming 'Sixteen men on a dead man's chest' are not what it means to be a parrot. Undoubtedly, in the mind of that monkey-who-is-a-parrot there is something else that is the essense of parrothood, and that is what they want/need.
Maybe it is to be treated as a parrot. (Even if what that means being dissed for not riding on shoulders or eating crackers.)
Maybe it is to be complemented on its pretty plumage.
Maybe it is tend eggs.
The details don't matter. The essence is that a species-role is more than the sum of its parts, and so if you focus too much on the details you lose the jungle for the trees.
In other words, that monkey-who-is-a-parrot is not a stereotype of a parrot, it is an actual parrot, and that can include being unconventional and overall non-parroty.
To put it another way, some cultures have a few boxes you can fit in, and it doesn't matter how poorly you fit in the box, as long as you stay tethered to the one assigned to you. Some cultures have a multitude of boxes, and you can pick any box you want, but once you pick one, you have to stay perfectly in that box. Our monkey-who-is-a-non-stereotypical-parrot would do well in that first culture, and poorly in the second.
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Woah wait hold up, so not only are you guys saying gender roles or gender identity do not exist in Golarion, but it's impossible for a "transphobic character" to be a "hero" or anything more than some mud-farming a%%%$$@?
No, we're saying that unlike Earth, Golarion didn't immediately divide labor when they invented the plough and then come up with misogynistic justifications for it. We're saying that the major religions which shaped its culture didn't have underlying ambivalence or outright disdain for women, and that controlling women's sexuality hasn't been a focus for any of the large cultural movements that have shaped the major societies on Golarion. (Hell->Cheliax being a notable exception.)
Doesn't that seem... You know... Kind of boring? History is rich with examples of a#&@##%s-turned-heroes, or people becoming paragons of a gender-specific ideal or hell, people breaking out of their gender roles to become something great.
Not really. Yet another world in which people limit women to being trophies, property, evil temptresses, whipping toys, and brood mares seems way more boring to me than trying to imagine what culture would look like if all those tropes/assumptions weren't taken as givens.
There are so many ways to create conflict and tension in a society. There are so many ways that a female character can be motivated--or traumatized--that don't involve sexual assault or dealing with misogynistic expectations. The fact that pop culture keeps going back to those parched wells is evidence of poverty of imagination, not lack of possibility.
When you say bigots = bad
Well, I think bigotry=bad. I think (nonconsensual) sadism=bad. I think attempting to reduce people to one virtue or flaw is oversimplification. I think if you're a bigot, you can't be a good person, which is not the same as saying you're an evil person. Good, to me, is more than just not being evil, and I think that's a view that allows for more character depth, not less.
gender roles do not exist
Didn't say that, either. I argued that they're not necessary or a result of immutable biological factors, and encouraged people to try imagining what cultures might look like without them.
That doesn't mean they don't exist in Golarion. What I am saying is that they're not the same in Golarion. Golarion's a planet, not a single culture. And one of the things we do when we're creating new cultures for it or elaborating on existing ones is ask ourselves how societal roles--based on gender, based on caste or class or age or profession or family lineage, etc.--might look different from how they evolved on Earth. Sometimes that involves looking at Earth cultures (like, for example, the Yoruba, who--pre European contact--had societal roles based primarily on lineage and seniority, who don't really factor gender into roles except in reproduction/marriage, and who don't even have words that translate directly to "man" or "woman"), and sometimes it means trying to dump existing cultural constraints entirely and just ask "what if?"
Because asking "what if?" is sort of the point of fantasy/scifi.
Tropes can be fun. Tropes can be interesting. Tropes are worth using.
But tropes are at their best when they're used in a thoughtful, considered, intentional fashion.
Not blindly--and boringly--reproduced because That's Just How It's Done.
and men = women in everything forever and ever, you're eliminating a hell of a lot of depth you can explore with not just a character concept, but with your own setting.
You're hardly the first person to make that argument on these boards, and you're not really saying anything new or making it any more compelling. Seems like hardly a month goes by without some thinly disguised pleading for reassurance that somewhere on Golarion, men are still allowed to treat women as inferiors.
As I said, there are a ton of ways to create conflict. And Golarion isn't homogenous at all. There are places where gender roles--both those that resemble some on Earth, and those that are not based in history--hold sway. The Keleshites are matrilineal, some of the cultures on Garund are straight-up matriarchal, there are both matriarchies and patriarchies in Tian Xia. The Chelaxians became patriarchal under Hell's influence. Most of the Kellid tribes don't care much one way or the other, although because their tribes are so small, there's a ton of individual variation. The Mwangi have groups that are patriarchal, groups that are matriarchal, and groups that don't really have set gender roles. The Shoanti vary by tribe. The Taldans have been mildly sexist in favor of men, but are far more concerned about class, and as they evolve into further decadence, their gender roles are becoming as byzantine and nuanced as everything else about the culture. The Ulfen generally value straight-up physical strength, so most of their leaders are men, but they're perfectly willing to follow a woman if she can best them in a fight. The Varisians lean female-centric, and the Vudrani are far more concerned with caste than gender. Dwarves have more clearly-defined gender roles, but they're nothing like Earth's, and elves are pretty unconcerned about it, though they seem to trend toward more female leaders than male ones.
The TL;DR is that Golarion doesn't have Earth's near-universal history of misogyny.
The details are that it's a big planet with a lot of different people--many of whom aren't even human--on it, and they ways that they interact and the assumptions they make are as diverse as they are.
At least the good thing is you guys can't force DMs to portray the setting - even if it's "your" setting
Yes, that is indeed how pen & paper roleplaying games work.
Still, it would help to know *where* gender roles exist in Golarion, how they exist, and what kind of races or nations feel about people who don't fit into the gender binary.
That is sort of what campaign setting material is for.
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Awhile ago, I read a post here about a woman who was a new player to gaming, and so her concept was that she was a woman who was always told the whole 'barefoot and pregnant is all you are good for' shtick, but that she fought hard and rose above it to be an adventurer. The GM was like "uhh... that won't work... Golarion isn't like that"
This is an interesting sidetrack to me personally, because (*for me*) one of the most empowering ways to feel social justice is to combat injustice. But when that injustice doesn't exist, at least on-screen, it's sort of anticlimactic. I mean it's cool and all to have a world where everyone is equal, but at times, I'd like scenes where the bad guy is like, "woman, shut up!" and I shoot them in the head.
Of course, ultimately it comes down to what is fun for your table, and I usually give up on my desires to feel those sorts of scenes so the other people at the table can feel more comfortable with an egalitarian world.
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Awhile ago, I read a post here about a woman who was a new player to gaming, and so her concept was that she was a woman who was always told the whole 'barefoot and pregnant is all you are good for' shtick, but that she fought hard and rose above it to be an adventurer. The GM was like "uhh... that won't work... Golarion isn't like that" because there really was no place in Golarion that he knew of that was that sexist... But, based on the fantasy and sci-fi tropes we've grown up with, she expected this new world she knew nothing much about to have a place like that.
While there might not be a *place* where that's the norm and expected in Golarion, there are, no doubt, people who *do* feel that way—the character's backstory in this example does still have validity, just perhaps not in the scope first anticipated.
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Wasn't this thread supposed to be about trans men, though?
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Awhile ago, I read a post here about a woman who was a new player to gaming, and so her concept was that she was a woman who was always told the whole 'barefoot and pregnant is all you are good for' shtick, but that she fought hard and rose above it to be an adventurer. The GM was like "uhh... that won't work... Golarion isn't like that"This is an interesting sidetrack to me personally, because (*for me*) one of the most empowering ways to feel social justice is to combat injustice. But when that injustice doesn't exist, at least on-screen, it's sort of anticlimactic. I mean it's cool and all to have a world where everyone is equal, but at times, I'd like scenes where the bad guy is like, "woman, shut up!" and I shoot them in the head.
Of course, ultimately it comes down to what is fun for your table, and I usually give up on my desires to feel those sorts of scenes so the other people at the table can feel more comfortable.
You're right, those sorts of scenes should be built at the table level, where the GM knows his/her group and knows what they've come to do. For some groups, "I have a broadsword and a serious beef with the patriarchy" is exactly the escapism they're looking for; for others, it's more like "I have to put up with this **** all day in my 9-to-5, the last thing I want to deal with is the same thing in my fantasy." YMMV.
And I agree with Shisumo. What works for one group might not work for another.
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Still, it would help to know *where* gender roles exist in Golarion, how they exist, and what kind of races or nations feel about people who don't fit into the gender binary.Awhile ago, I read a post here about a woman who was a new player to gaming, and so her concept was that she was a woman who was always told the whole 'barefoot and pregnant is all you are good for' shtick, but that she fought hard and rose above it to be an adventurer. The GM was like "uhh... that won't work... Golarion isn't like that" because there really was no place in Golarion that he knew of that was that sexist... But, based on the fantasy and sci-fi tropes we've grown up with, she expected this new world she knew nothing much about to have a place like that.
Is it great that Golarion is a happy place of total gender equality? Yes, I really do think it is... However, especially when dealing with players who expect it to not be and make a character that rises above the inequality... what should that GM have told her?
Well, first, the GM was accurate from a macro perspective of Golarion, but not a micro one. There are areas of Golarion that are sexist (some against women, some against men). Overall/on balance, Golarion's not sexist.
Personally, I probably would have adapted part of the world to give the player's character a place where she could have the sort of background she wanted. There's a lot of blank space in our campaign setting, intentionally, to allow GMs and players to do just that. Make up a village, make up a Kellid tribe, make up a religious sect, heck, make up a family with those assumptions.
Then as to the topic of transgender/gender fluidity, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the empyreal lord Arshea yet... As I understand it, isn't it part of her tenets to be be genderfluid, at least for awhile? Experience life as a man, experience life as a woman, then decide which is right for you.
Yup. It's not a forced thing ("You must spend 5 years identifying as a man and 5 identifying as a woman") of course. It's just encouragement to explore different roles and ways of identifying.
That said, Arshea's not going to push adherents to do things that make them uncomfortable, unless they're consciously trying to expand their comfort zones--but if the idea of a more fluid approach to gender and exploring different presentations and roles is something that makes someone uncomfortable rather than intrigued, that person's probably not going to worship Arshea.
Wasn't this thread supposed to be about trans men, though?
Yup. Though I think, since the question was basically "where are the trans men?" and our answer was basically, "We've kinda neglected them in the past, but there are some trans men in upcoming products," people may have felt that there wasn't much more to say about it at the moment.
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Then as to the topic of transgender/gender fluidity, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the empyreal lord Arshea yet... As I understand it, isn't it part of her tenets to be be genderfluid, at least for awhile? Experience life as a man, experience life as a woman, then decide which is right for you.Yup. It's not a forced thing ("You must spend 5 years identifying as a man and 5 identifying as a woman") of course. It's just encouragement to explore different roles and ways of identifying.
That said, Arshea's not going to push adherents to do things that make them uncomfortable, unless they're consciously trying to expand their comfort zones--but if the idea of a more fluid approach to gender and exploring different presentations and roles is something that makes someone uncomfortable rather than intrigued, that person's probably not going to worship Arshea.
Yeah, the whole thing about Arshea is that zie isn't prescriptive about gender presentation, so I would expect that it's more about the mindset than about filling any particular gender role. Presentation is the physical manifestation of the internal construct, and for any particuar Arshean I could see that being an almost incidental fallout of the actual boundary-shattering they are focused on, which is more conceptual than actual.
I have a concept for an Inquisitor of Arshea that I keep saying I'm going to play. But zie's really out there and I'm not sure I've got a safe enough space to really go there. (A safe enough space *internally* I mean. I'm pretty sure I could find a table to play hir at, but it's hard to muster the fortitude to get to that place, mentally.)
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My brain breaks when we get to the monkey thats really a parrot but doesn't ride on shoulders or eat crackers, or laugh evilly while proclaiming "Sixteen men on a dead man's chest."
That's because the parrot example is terrible and is more akin to that otherkin bullshit than the actual discussion of gender, rather than species.
The long and short of it is, to my understanding:
Sex = Body (what's your genitals look like?)
Gender = What you feel you really are.
It's more of a fundamental thing than any of the superfluous trappings of society. You can have a woman who likes all of the stereotypically "manly" things and dislikes all the stereotypically "womanly" things, but she's still a woman. It's at the very core of her being. "I am a woman who likes 'manly' things, but I am still 100% a woman".
A male who identifies as a woman may still like all those stereotypically manly things, but at the core still has that bone deep certainty of "I am a woman" despite both social preferences and what the body suggests.
I imagine it's one of those things that is hard to really grok unless you feel it yourself since it's such a fundamental, unquestioned aspect of your psyche and identity.
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What confuses me is that people seem against the idea in general that a trans* individual, or gay, or whatever is represented in the material at all, as if it will rub off on you through the paper or somehow influence your game or thoughts.
If you don't like or want something, change it. It takes literally seconds and you move on. I've had all female groups in the past that were interested in relationships with NPCs and have happily swapped genders where appropriate to the characters and players alike.
As said above by Rednal, I'm quite happy that Paizo tries to include representatives of many individuals in their material. It helps inclusiveness, it might open some eyes, and it helps set up their world as a living thing and not a reproduction of what might be seen in many traditional fantasy books/movies/shows.
Contributor
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Then as to the topic of transgender/gender fluidity, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the empyreal lord Arshea yet... As I understand it, isn't it part of her tenets to be be genderfluid, at least for awhile? Experience life as a man, experience life as a woman, then decide which is right for you.Yup. It's not a forced thing ("You must spend 5 years identifying as a man and 5 identifying as a woman") of course. It's just encouragement to explore different roles and ways of identifying.
That said, Arshea's not going to push adherents to do things that make them uncomfortable, unless they're consciously trying to expand their comfort zones--but if the idea of a more fluid approach to gender and exploring different presentations and roles is something that makes someone uncomfortable rather than intrigued, that person's probably not going to worship Arshea.
Yeah, the whole thing about Arshea is that zie isn't prescriptive about gender presentation, so I would expect that it's more about the mindset than about filling any particular gender role. Presentation is the physical manifestation of the internal construct, and for any particuar Arshean I could see that being an almost incidental fallout of the actual boundary-shattering they are focused on, which is more conceptual than actual.
I have a concept for an Inquisitor of Arshea that I keep saying I'm going to play. But zie's really out there and I'm not sure I've got a safe enough space to really go there. (A safe enough space *internally* I mean. I'm pretty sure I could find a table to play hir at, but it's hard to muster the fortitude to get to that place, mentally.)
I've got a paladin who'll be at your side!
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What confuses me is that people seem against the idea in general that a trans* individual, or gay, or whatever is represented in the material at all, as if it will rub off on you through the paper or somehow influence your game or thoughts.
If you don't like or want something, change it. It takes literally seconds and you move on. I've had all female groups in the past that were interested in relationships with NPCs and have happily swapped genders where appropriate to the characters and players alike.
As said above by Rednal, I'm quite happy that Paizo tries to include representatives of many individuals in their material. It helps inclusiveness, it might open some eyes, and it helps set up their world as a living thing and not a reproduction of what might be seen in many traditional fantasy books/movies/shows.
Well, our hobby is about escapism, and for some it's escaping from the world which rapidly changes in a way they're not exactly happy with. Some believe that the good old D&D where men are manly men, women have -2 STR -2 CON +2 CHA and all those icky Social Progress things are left out is where they can find solace.
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What confuses me is that people seem against the idea in general that a trans* individual, or gay, or whatever is represented in the material at all, as if it will rub off on you through the paper or somehow influence your game or thoughts.
If you don't like or want something, change it. It takes literally seconds and you move on. I've had all female groups in the past that were interested in relationships with NPCs and have happily swapped genders where appropriate to the characters and players alike.
As said above by Rednal, I'm quite happy that Paizo tries to include representatives of many individuals in their material. It helps inclusiveness, it might open some eyes, and it helps set up their world as a living thing and not a reproduction of what might be seen in many traditional fantasy books/movies/shows.
Well, our hobby is about escapism, and for some it's escaping from the world which rapidly changes in a way they're not exactly happy with. Some believe that the good old D&D where men are manly men, women have -2 STR -2 CON +2 CHA and all those icky Social Progress things are left out is where they can find solace.
And they're perfectly free to do that in their home games, and to tweak the setting to their preferences, just like everyone else. :-)
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Let's try it this way: You're a parrot. You like being a clever, brightly plumed, tropical avian. The society you live in says that parrots ride on shoulders, eat crackers, and laugh evilly while proclaiming "Sixteen men on a dead man's chest."Most parrots in the society you live in do these things (maybe they're forced to, or maybe they like to, or maybe they're mostly neutral on these things but just do them because that's how it's always been done). Even if you don't engage in these parrot roles, you don't stop being a parrot. If you like bananas and trees, you don't stop being a parrot and instead be a monkey because the society you live in says monkeys live in trees and eat bananas.
I can understand being a parrot that likes cackling "Sixteen men on a dead man's chest."
I can understand being a parrot that doesn't like cackling "Sixteen men on a dead man's chest."
I can understand a monkey thats really a parrot that likes cackling "Sixteen men on a dead man's chest."
My brain breaks when we get to the monkey thats really a parrot but doesn't ride on shoulders or eat crackers, or laugh evilly while proclaiming "Sixteen men on a dead man's chest."
You didn't read the example very well. My point is explicitly that that parrot who rejects 'parrot roles' and does things stereotypically associated with monkeys does not stop being a parrot. Parrot understands itself as being a parrot, even though it doesn't do things society commonly associates with parrots.
It's an oversimplification of a complex subject.
My point being: Regardless of the wider society's view of hard-coded gender roles, having a "masculine" job doesn't automatically make you a man, and yes, a trans man adventurer would still likely want to transition to have a better relationship with himself and and feel like a more complete human being in his society.
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Just going to point out that never have my "manliness" been so appreciated and given confirmation as the three years I worked in the traditionally female job of preschool teacher.
Because, if someone hasn't gotten it yet, your job has nothing to do with your gender.
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And I don't think we need to be members of a minority group in order to appreciate their inclusion in a shared hobby, either. ^^ Pathfinder is as much everyone else's game as it is mine, after all. We all tweak the game for how we'd like to play it, and ultimately, more people playing is good for the game we all enjoy.
Rather than threatening me or my excessively common sexual identity, I actually see Paizo's policy of inclusiveness as directly beneficial to my interests. ^^ So... yeah. I don't think I need to tell their employees to keep it up, because I think they'll do that anyway - I just want to make it known that I'm glad they're doing things this way.
My point being: Regardless of the wider society's view of hard-coded gender roles, having a "masculine" job doesn't automatically make you a man, and yes, a trans man adventurer would still likely want to transition to have a better relationship with himself and and feel like a more complete human being in his society.
Yeah but there's more to a *gender role* than a job. Is the very concept of gender a social construct on Golarion? And if so, then how is Shardra even trans in the first place if she identifies as female despite being born male?
Woah wait hold up, so not only are you guys saying gender roles or gender identity do not exist in Golarion, but it's impossible for a "transphobic character" to be a "hero" or anything more than some mud-farming a%%%#+#?
So much this. I couldn't imagine the Shelynite or Desnan priesthoods making a big deal out of it, but nor could I imagine Erastil or Torag just taking it in stride. They'd likely still accept the person based on who they were, but using them as a mouthpiece for modern viewpoints on the real-world subject would be outright character derailment. Just because they're old fashioned doesn't make them any less fundamentally good-hearted by the standards of the day: think Hank Hill or the grandfather in Little Miss Sunshine, curmudgeonly but in the end seeing the merits of someone's character first and foremost.
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Yeah but there's more to a *gender role* than a job. Is the very concept of gender a social construct on Golarion?
My point being: Regardless of the wider society's view of hard-coded gender roles, having a "masculine" job doesn't automatically make you a man, and yes, a trans man adventurer would still likely want to transition to have a better relationship with himself and and feel like a more complete human being in his society.
The "very concept of gender" is a social construct on Earth, so I'm not sure why this is so weird for you.
So much this. I couldn't imagine the Shelynite or Desnan priesthoods making a big deal out of it, but nor could I imagine Erastil or Torag just taking it in stride. They'd likely still accept the person based on who they were, but using them as a mouthpiece for modern viewpoints on the real-world subject would be outright character derailment.Woah wait hold up, so not only are you guys saying gender roles or gender identity do not exist in Golarion, but it's impossible for a "transphobic character" to be a "hero" or anything more than some mud-farming a%%%#+#?
Says who?
(Also, you might want to reread Jessica's posts above, because "old-fashioned" on Golarion doesn't mean what you think it means.)
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Yeah but there's more to a *gender role* than a job. Is the very concept of gender a social construct on Golarion? And if so, then how is Shardra even trans in the first place if she identifies as female despite being born male?
My point being: Regardless of the wider society's view of hard-coded gender roles, having a "masculine" job doesn't automatically make you a man, and yes, a trans man adventurer would still likely want to transition to have a better relationship with himself and and feel like a more complete human being in his society.
The original discussion was about why a trans man character would even need to transition if he was already in a "stereotypical male" career like adventuring, to which the replies have been 1) Adventuring is not stereotypically male, and 2) even if it were, a trans person's gender is unrelated to the jobs or social roles they embrace or reject, because gender roles and gender and different things that share a word in common (like jelly and a jellyfish).
Also, just because something is a social construct doesn't mean it's unimportant or pretend. Humans build all kinds of social constructs to help us understand and navigate the world: government, money, justice, science, roleplaying games. These are all social constructs that are very important to our understanding of the world and what makes us human, but they're abstraction. There's no such thing a government molecule; we make up government as a concept to explain why and how we organize ourselves
So much this. I couldn't imagine the Shelynite or Desnan priesthoods making a big deal out of it, but nor could I imagine Erastil or Torag just taking it in stride. They'd likely still accept the person based on who they were, but using them as a mouthpiece for modern viewpoints on the real-world subject would be outright character derailment. Just because they're old fashioned doesn't make them any less fundamentally good-hearted by the standards of the day: think Hank Hill or the grandfather in Little Miss Sunshine, curmudgeonly but in the end seeing the merits of someone's character first and foremost.Woah wait hold up, so not only are you guys saying gender roles or gender identity do not exist in Golarion, but it's impossible for a "transphobic character" to be a "hero" or anything more than some mud-farming a%%%#+#?
Again, we never said this. We never said there are no gender roles in Golarion; We have said that they are enforced to varying degrees depending on where you are, and in general aren't as strict as they are in the real world. And we have TOTALLY said gender identity exists. Repeatedly.
As for gods being, "old fashioned," trans people existing and being important religious figures predates your concepts of Victorian-refined, judeo-christian values on gender roles by at least 70,000 years, so I think the "old fashioned" gods would actually be pretty excepting of gender variance than you'd expect. Of course, they're also 100% fictional, so they're as supportive or close-minded as we chose to make them, either in print or at our individual gaming tables.
The "very concept of gender" is a social construct on Earth, so I'm not sure why this is so weird for you.
So then how is gender dysphoria a medically recognized concept based on MRI scans of the brain?
Says who?(Also, you might want to reread Jessica's posts above, because "old-fashioned" on Golarion doesn't mean what you think it means.)
Isn't that part of where Amiri's angst comes from in her backstory? That because her tribe were hunter-gatherers that she wasn't expected to be a hunter or warrior due to her gender (as was and still is the case in societies that still practice it, where the "hunter" and "gatherer" roles aren't as strict as they're sometimes thought to be, but women who are or expected to become pregnant do less hunting for obvious reasons). If her Kellid tribe had just shrugged and gone "Yeah, sure, you can be a warrior" and her backstory remained the same ceteris paribus she would've pretty much been massacring her tribesmen for a frivolous reason which I'd say would put her alignment a solid step south of Chaotic Neutral.
Ninja edit:
Of course, they're also 100% fictional, so they're as supportive or close-minded as we chose to make them, either in print or at our individual gaming tables.
That pretty much answers my question, honestly.
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Again, we never said this. We never said there are no gender roles in Golarion; We have said that they are enforced to varying degrees depending on where you are, and in general aren't as strict as they are in the real world. And we have TOTALLY said gender identity exists. Repeatedly.
I just wanted to say this is one thing about Golarion that I really like. Golarion's not a utopia of equality, nor does it have any risk of becoming the Neutral planet. But of all the various fictional worlds I've read, it does the best job of avoiding this phenomenon:
Ah, the good old "inclusiveness hampers creativity" argument, or "is there a really, really, REALLY good story enhancing reason why this bartender isn't white?".
If you want to tell stories about fighting racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, or overcoming any sort of adversity, there's plenty of opportunity to do so. Amiri grew up in a sexist tribe, Taldor doesn't allow for a woman to take the throne. There's discrimination against Shoanti in Varisia and tieflings in Cheliax. The list goes on.
But having those available as story hooks doesn't prevent the iconic champion of Good from being a woman of color whose story doesn't really have anything to do with those issues. Gender identity and sexual orientation issues don't come up as often, but the same pattern holds. It's great to see people and relationships I can identify with, even especially when it isn't plot-critical.
And now that this discussion has me thinking, I'm off to break my "no new characters" moratorium. I really thought I'd be able to hold off until Occult Adventures. Thanks, Crystal and Jessica (and everyone else)!
So then how is gender dysphoria a medically recognized concept based on MRI scans of the brain?
The "very concept of gender" is a social construct on Earth, so I'm not sure why this is so weird for you.
Gender clearly has some kind of biological underpinnings, but what it means to be a man or a woman is a social construction.
Isn't that part of where Amiri's angst comes from in her backstory? That because her tribe were hunter-gatherers that she wasn't expected to be a hunter or warrior due to her gender (as was and still is the case in societies that still practice it, where the "hunter" and "gatherer" roles aren't as strict as they're sometimes thought to be, but women who are or expected to become pregnant do less hunting for obvious reasons). If her Kellid tribe had just shrugged and gone "Yeah, sure, you can be a warrior" and her backstory remained the same ceteris paribus she would've pretty much been massacring her tribesmen for a frivolous reason which I'd say would put her alignment a solid step south of Chaotic Neutral.
Amiri's tribe were hunter-gatherers, and were sexist. That's not necessarily cause and effect. Even on Earth, not all such societies have rigid gender roles. They could have been sexist because of influence from worshippers of Kostchtchie, a demon lord who hates women and who some groups in the area she's from are known to worship.
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Magic's a hell of an equalizer.
Golarion's a world where some 5'0" twerp that weighs 100 pounds soaking wet could kill Godzilla King Mogaru with her bare hands.
"Traditional gender roles" (a.k.a., I'm naturally bigger and stronger than you, so do what I say or get hurt) goes out the window when either gender's fully capable of suplexing ogres.
And that's just the pure martials. "Traditional gender roles" gets thrown out the window even harder the moment stuff like smite and ki and domain powers and spells get involved.
I'd expect Amiri's tribe to NOT go "you're a woman, you must do ____," I'd expect them to go "you're built like a brick shit house, how about you do ____."
The general vibe on Golarion is that a society that actively discriminates against its members, for whatever reason, often has something deeply wrong with it.
Magic's a hell of an equalizer.
Golarion's a world where some 5'0" twerp that weighs 100 pounds soaking wet could kill
GodzillaKing Mogaru with her bare hands."Traditional gender roles" (a.k.a., I'm naturally bigger and stronger than you, so do what I say or get hurt) goes out the window when either gender's fully capable of suplexing ogres.
And that's just the pure martials. "Traditional gender roles" gets thrown out the window even harder the moment stuff like smite and ki and domain powers and spells get involved.
I'd expect Amiri's tribe to NOT go "you're a woman, you must do ____," I'd expect them to go "you're built like a brick s@~~ house, how about you do ____."
The general vibe on Golarion is that a society that actively discriminates against its members, for whatever reason, often has something deeply wrong with it.
Magic is indeed a great equalizer, but the problem with magic is both genders are equally represented as having magical inclinations, and magic in Golarion isn't as common as magic in, say, Eberron.
Well, first, the GM was accurate from a macro perspective of Golarion, but not a micro one. There are areas of Golarion that are sexist (some against women, some against men). Overall/on balance, Golarion's not sexist.
Personally, I probably would have adapted part of the world to give the player's character a place where she could have the sort of background she wanted. There's a lot of blank space in our campaign setting, intentionally, to allow GMs and players to do just that. Make up a village, make up a Kellid tribe, make up a religious sect, heck, make up a family with those assumptions.
Actually I just remembered... Kostchtchie... The most misogynistic deity I've ever seen in print. Don't know how I forgot about him considering Reign of Winter is one of my favorite APs.
Magic is indeed a great equalizer, but the problem with magic is both genders are equally represented as having magical inclinations, and magic in Golarion isn't as common as magic in, say, Eberron.Magic's a hell of an equalizer.
Golarion's a world where some 5'0" twerp that weighs 100 pounds soaking wet could kill
GodzillaKing Mogaru with her bare hands."Traditional gender roles" (a.k.a., I'm naturally bigger and stronger than you, so do what I say or get hurt) goes out the window when either gender's fully capable of suplexing ogres.
And that's just the pure martials. "Traditional gender roles" gets thrown out the window even harder the moment stuff like smite and ki and domain powers and spells get involved.
I'd expect Amiri's tribe to NOT go "you're a woman, you must do ____," I'd expect them to go "you're built like a brick s@~~ house, how about you do ____."
The general vibe on Golarion is that a society that actively discriminates against its members, for whatever reason, often has something deeply wrong with it.
Again, see being able to kill Godzilla with your bare hands.
Physics in the Pathfinder universe don't work quite the way they do here.
In the Pathfinder universe, men and women are equally adept at both magic and physical combat. There's no physical (or magical) advantages from gender.
Another way to put it - in the Golarion universe, women are just a strong as men, and men are just as agile as women.