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In a world where a Girdle of Opposite Gender is a thing that can be reused by an infinite number of people, it's hard to see why anyone would stay as a gender that didn't match them. It seems like any large city would just have a communal Girdle to handle this sort of thing.
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All 4 of those are, I believe, transwomen. Not 100% sure of Marislova.
And I think Addem Up mistyped - transmen would be FtM. Shardra would be a transwoman (MtF).
I don't know of any transmen characters offhand.
Sorry, I should have clarified. Those are all the trans characters I know of, full stop. And yes, they are all transwomen.
Yeah, there's several male-to-female characters statted up in the various locations. I'm hardpressed to come up with their opposite number though, though I'm sure I've just overlooked them. Any female-to-male canonical trans characters?
None that I'm aware of, although I have my suspicions about Damiel.
The Girdle is a cursed item; it's intended use is to trap someone in the wrong gender, not to help them adjust to the correct one. That's what the Elixir of Sex Shifting is for.
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Reiko, the iconic Ninja is probably as close as it gets at the moment.
She's biologically female, but will present as either gender, and has been unofficially proclaimed to be genderfluid.
Not quite the same thing as transmasculine, I know, but might work for you until there's something more official.
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I'll see your vigilante, and raise you the kineticist. :)Stay tuned! We're on it!Let me be the first to speculate that it is the iconic Vigilante.
And I'm not just saying that because my own vigilante has a female social identity and a male vigilante identity.
Kineticist in chapter 2 intro is given female pronouns.
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makes me wonder if there are any pre-spell transgender people in the setting. Most you see have already drank the potion or put on the belt.
It's a very different thing than in the real world, too, as I'm sure casual viewers wouldn't be able to tell they transitioned. That's why I never really see transgendered people in a fantasy setting as the same as the ones in reality. We don't have magic potions that will turn you 100% the way you want to be.
Keep in mind these magic items are not cheap, even a 1,000 gold pieces is a lot for a poor farmer. Shardra, for example, is implied to have made a sort of alchemical hormone-replacement elixir, though she might try to get ahold of one of those potions down the line.
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The Girdle is a cursed item; it's intended use is to trap someone in the wrong gender, not to help them adjust to the correct one. That's what the Elixir of Sex Shifting is for.
So I wonder then if it would be ineffective on a Trans person? If you're already living with a soul or mind or what have you with incorrect biological markers, wouldn't the girdle fizzle?
Kind of feels like no matter what the girdle has some unfortunate implications.
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The Girdle is a cursed item; it's intended use is to trap someone in the wrong gender, not to help them adjust to the correct one. That's what the Elixir of Sex Shifting is for.So I wonder then if it would be ineffective on a Trans person? If you're already living with a soul or mind or what have you with incorrect biological markers, wouldn't the girdle fizzle?
Kind of feels like no matter what the girdle has some unfortunate implications.
I believe that's the idea.
That being said, there is a character in supplemental material who put on a girdle as a disguise... only to find its effects increasingly "comfortable".
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That being said, there is a character in supplemental material who put on a girdle as a disguise... only to find its effects increasingly "comfortable".
That character occupies a somewhat weird space for me in this conversation. Unlike most trans folk in the real world, she didn't experience anything we would describe as gender dysphoria before her transition, and isn't really locked into her current state beyond the need to find someone to cast remove curse, a significantly easier process than undergoing major surgery to undo gender reassignment. That's a gender space that we almost literally have no concept of in reality - what one might describe as trans tourism: "trying on" a new gender because it's an option, not a driving need.
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Quite so. (I recommend Neil Gaiman's short story "Changes" from his Smoke and Mirrors collection for a cool exploration of that.) But my point is that this particular character might actually be better categorized as genderfluid than trans in the sense we here in reality tend to think of the term.
This also figured into a lot of new wave sf in the 70s & 80s. The name John Varley is jumping up and down in my head, but I'm blanking on actual story names.
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Also worth noting that the ACG introduced the 2,250 gp elixir of sex shift.
And I won't be shocked if we see some transmen changelings in the future.
Stay tuned! We're on it!
Good, for some time it seems PAIZO has been very much empathetic towards Transwomen, but absolutely ignoring that there are Transmen out there or even in existence.
Should prove interesting what they present, though the ratio is still a tad skewed...
Also, I'd rather an iconic or something rather than a GMPC sort...though if it's a VERY significant and important character shed in a positive light, that could be interesting.
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Let's not just casually shit on Paizo for not including every flavor of person out there just yet. They've tried -- and succeeded I'd say at making sure everyone has a place in Golarion. You can nit pick and say they've only included trans women, but that's missing the point entirely.
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Let's not just casually s**+ on Paizo for not including every flavor of person out there just yet. They've tried -- and succeeded I'd say at making sure everyone has a place in Golarion. You can nit pick and say they've only included trans women, but that's missing the point entirely.
Indeed - I think, if nothing else, the effort they're making is clear.
That's not a blanket excuse... but it means that they notice threads like this, and really seem to give inclusiveness some thought. ^_^
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These sort of threads are good--we try to make sure we're including a wide range of characters, but we're also making a ton of books and racing to get them out, which means there's not always a lot of time to examine what we're doing and ask ourselves what we're not doing. So when people nudge us--like they did on trans women--it's helpful in drawing our attention to what we're missing. :-)
Does EVERY company in EVERY profession really have to put a huge, specific spotlight on literally EVERYTHING? Especially when we're talking about people who just have a certain personality, ESPECIALLY especially in a roleplaying game. If you want to see a certain kind of character in the setting, just make one yourself (either as a PC or as an NPC if you're the GM). That's the beauty of games like this!
Creative Director
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Does EVERY company in EVERY profession really have to put a huge, specific spotlight on literally EVERYTHING? Especially when we're talking about people who just have a certain personality, ESPECIALLY especially in a roleplaying game. If you want to see a certain kind of character in the setting, just make one yourself (either as a PC or as an NPC if you're the GM). That's the beauty of games like this!
The world'd be a better place if all influential companies, regardless of their industry, led by example and were inclusive in their offerings, yes.
Sure, you can say "if you want a certain type of character the game, you're free to make that happen in your home game."
But seeing the company itself essentially do that for you is important. Leading by example.
If you do something like this in your home game, you have a chance of broadening the horizons of 3 to 5 people—the players in your home game. And chances are good, since they're your friends, that you and they already are comfortable in your current situation.
But when WE put something inclusive in our product... we have a chance of influencing hundreds of thousands of players down the road. That makes it INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT for us to do it right, and to be inclusive and welcoming of everyone.
So yes... we do have to. And as Jessica pointed out, these sorts of threads are good. Being nudged is a good thing, even in cases (as in this one with trans men) the gears are already well in motion (there's a key trans man character in the first Hell's Rebels, and that's been in the works here at Paizo for nearly a year now... it just takes a LONG time for things to go from the idea point to the in-print point).
The unfortunate part of feeling the absolute NEED to do so, rather than doing it because it's what is desired in making something, can shift the priority to making a 100% inclusive creation and therefore shift making a GOOD creation to the #2 spot (that isn't so say that something can't be both, obviously, or that it WILL change priorities). If someone starts a thread saying "I want an X that identifies as Y; they've always been excluded!" then I would hope you're only going to put that in if you find that to be a good idea and the thread gave you the inspiration for a concept or you had already an idea of adding that (or something like it) independently, rather than JUST because someone complained. It's good to know that you're thinking of the wide influence by example; just don't let that take over the creative direction and have making a good product take a back seat.
I'm not criticising Paizo of anything - I was addressing the trend of people outright complaining when anything doesn't have one little thing specifically pointed out and made a big deal of. For all we know, a tenth of the population of Golarion could be trans men or any other kind of distinct personality, but it's just never come up.
Probably the easiest (and subtlest; probably best, too) way to be inclusive of things people are concerned about would be to design an updated Character Sheet layout and, among any other changes, include a spot for gender identity (as not only would it likely satisfy plenty of people wanting for inclusiveness, but it could also be helpful for all the kinds of asexual or hermaphroditic creatures/creature types) or whatever else would be of use to know on a character sheet. It would also add that feeling of legitimacy for those that run homebrew settings rather than published material.
I also agree with Oncoming_Storm that the effort is there. Furthermore, the addressed existence of trans women in the setting sort of implies the existence of trans men, too, so I'm not sure there's much to get in a huff over.
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Ah, the good old "inclusiveness hampers creativity" argument, or "is there a really, really, REALLY good story enhancing reason why this bartender isn't white?".
Gorbacz is right on the money here.
*Explodes*
Ah, the good old "inclusiveness hampers creativity" argument, or "is there a really, really, REALLY good story enhancing reason why this bartender isn't white?".
That's nowhere near what I'm saying, and you know it.
I'm not saying there should need to be a reason for it; I'm saying the opposite. I'm saying there should be reason to call attention to it if you do so (like if the character was cursed and shares the story with you, or they have a story that happens to mention it, or if it's just physically obvious and a PC asks). I don't think a character description is going to include "Yeah, this messenger you just met that's going to give you the envelope with your orders in it is human, pretty tall, has brown hair, he's wearing some beaten-up-looking chainmail, has a light mace hung on a loop on his belt, and over his chainmail he's wearing a tabard with the words I'M A TRANSSEXUAL, ASK ME ABOUT IT messily embroidered in a circle around the royal army's emblem in blue thread. He looks to have been waiting here for a while, and so seems happy to see you've finally arrived." and I doubt in casual conversation they'd just blurt out "So, you're on your way to the Scary Forest of No Not-Scary Things, then? By the way, I used to be a woman." It instead would probably be something written on the sheet the GM has, and you could probably find out with a check to gather information just like finding out where his homeland is or what food he hates. Drawing undue attention makes something seem weird and sets people on tangents. It shouldn't be something super-important; it should be just another fact about the character, like their sexuality or their blood type, unless it's relevant. To use your bartender analogy, it would be rather jarring for a character in a movie to go up to him and say "So, what's it like being Asian?" rather than interacting as normal, or for him to bring up a big backstory about "I was always ostracized at college because everyone told me 'Koreans can't be bartenders,' but I stuck with it. I showed them that Koreans can be bartenders, too, and I'm just as good as they are!" "Okay, I didn't ask about that, but cool, what's your name?" "The credits list me as Korean Bartender." "Your nametag says it's Jacob." "Oh, so it does. I guess they forgot about that."| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
When people have historically been excluded from a medium, then yes, it is important to note that part of their identity when they're included. It doesn't really solve the representation problem when, in a medium in which the heroes have almost always been straight white cis men, to have Jacob the bartender and never indicate that he's gay, or black, or trans, or whatever.
Part of the point of inclusivity is letting people other than straight white guys see themselves in fiction. That doesn't really happen if the only people who know that a character is black or gay or trans are the writers.
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Bloodrealm, no one ever asks why a straight white guy is straight, or white, or male, when one appears in a story. You seem to feel there has to be a reason to deviate from any of those. Why does there have to be a reason? Why not put gay black women in there just because?
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Not to mention that many straight white guys enjoy some different perspectives in their fiction!
What else is fantasy and imagination there for as to explore different possibilities?
In my view, this can only add to the depth of the story.
Personaly i would also welcome a Trans Men Iconic or even one as the protagonist of a novel.
Providing a diversity of positive male role models is something that really falls short in too many ways, yet it is the key to the success of many other things.
When people have historically been excluded from a medium, then yes, it is important to note that part of their identity when they're included. It doesn't really solve the representation problem when, in a medium in which the heroes have almost always been straight white cis men, to have Jacob the bartender and never indicate that he's gay, or black, or trans, or whatever.
Part of the point of inclusivity is letting people other than straight white guys see themselves in fiction. That doesn't really happen if the only people who know that a character is black or gay or trans are the writers.
Race is part of a visual description, however, and I was using that analogy in the context of a movie or other visual medium; sexual orientation is generally not, and it isn't always with gender identity, either.
Why would him being gay ever come up? I mean, it's fine if it does, he could off-handedly mention his boyfriend or husband, obviously, but when someone from some sort of minority or other generally-excluded group is represented as specifically an example of that group rather than as a person in general who belongs to that group, then it doesn't really fix the real problem. There can be indications or outright statements, but they have to make sense in context.
Or it could be noted for the GM as part of the characters history and get revealed to the players as it comes up in play or if it comes up in play.
Emphasis mine. That's exactly what I've been saying. Perhaps my initial phrasing was a bit too abrasive, but that's really the gist of it.
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When people have historically been excluded from a medium, then yes, it is important to note that part of their identity when they're included. It doesn't really solve the representation problem when, in a medium in which the heroes have almost always been straight white cis men, to have Jacob the bartender and never indicate that he's gay, or black, or trans, or whatever.
Part of the point of inclusivity is letting people other than straight white guys see themselves in fiction. That doesn't really happen if the only people who know that a character is black or gay or trans are the writers.
Race is part of a visual description, however, and I was using that analogy in the context of a movie or other visual medium; sexual orientation is generally not, and it isn't always with gender identity, either.
Why would him being gay ever come up? I mean, it's fine if it does, he could off-handedly mention his boyfriend or husband, obviously, but when someone from some sort of minority or other generally-excluded group is represented as specifically an example of that group rather than as a person in general who belongs to that group, then it doesn't really fix the real problem. There can be indications or outright statements, but they have to make sense in context.
Yes, race is immediately visible, but it's a part of who Character X is, just as much as their sexual preference and gender identity. Since the baseline assumption for any given character is "heterosexual and cisgendered," it's important to have characters that are specifically not that. Like Jessica and James said, it's on the industry to be inclusive, and on us as fans to let them know when we see an opportunity to do better at inclusivity. For example, the first issue of the AP line included a homosexual male couple for this very reason. It took six more issues before we saw the first canonical homosexual female couple - though that one was problematic for people. It took quite some time before we had a trans woman character with a name, and almost a hundred issues before we have a trans man.
Equality comes in inches.
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Why would him being gay ever come up?When people have historically been excluded from a medium, then yes, it is important to note that part of their identity when they're included. It doesn't really solve the representation problem when, in a medium in which the heroes have almost always been straight white cis men, to have Jacob the bartender and never indicate that he's gay, or black, or trans, or whatever.
Part of the point of inclusivity is letting people other than straight white guys see themselves in fiction. That doesn't really happen if the only people who know that a character is black or gay or trans are the writers.
<wry> Exactly. It kinda sounds like if we followed your guidelines, the only gay characters we'd have would be implied or coded ones, like in movies from the 1950s and 60s.
I mean, it's fine if it does, he could off-handedly mention his boyfriend or husband, obviously, but when someone from some sort of minority or other generally-excluded group is represented as specifically an example of that group rather than as a person in general who belongs to that group, then it doesn't really fix the real problem.
Oh really?
1) False dichotomy. It's not a binary. You can have representation of marginalized people both as people who just happen to belong to that group and specifically as examples of that group, whose identity as a member of that group is something they emphasize.
2) You'll understand, I hope, if I take the opinions of actual members of minority/marginalized groups as to what sort of representation makes them feel welcome/included over that of people who aren't members of that group?
As a woman, I like Chell in Portal and Samus in the Metroid games. But by themselves, as characters whose gender is only glimpsed in one scene at the end of the game, or in the "mirrors" occasionally created by portals, they don't make me feel included or represented the way Bioware using a female inquisitor as the star of their trailer does. What works for me is inclusion in aggregate--both characters who have their femaleness marked and emphasized, those who don't. Women in our multitudes, not a single female character, even if she's the star.
And judging by fan response, Kyra and Merisiel kissing in a comic panel and explicitly informing Valeros that they were a couple has meant as much to some people and more to a lot of people than subtle, passing references buried in a gazetteer.
Ultimately, one instance of representation doesn't fix the problem. Neither does one type of representation. Normalization--not treating historically marginalized groups as unusual or marked--is important, but so's having characters that are called out and emphasized, especially because the default is straight, white, cis, and male. As long as that's the case, a guy on a page or onscreen or in a game will be assumed to be straight and cis until it's shown that he's not. Therefore, it's important to show that he's not.
There can be indications or outright statements, but they have to make sense in context.
And who gets to be the arbiter of what "makes sense" in context? You?
Seems like the people who are trying to lay down rules for how we're allowed to reveal that someone's gay are almost always straight. People that are trying to lay down rules for when a character shouldn't be white are usually white. People who are trying to lay down rules for when it's "historically accurate" or "plausible" that women be leaders and warriors are, as far as I've noticed, invariably men.
I'm always curious as to why those people should listen to people who aren't members of a group talking about how that group should be represented. As a woman, I'm really not interested in how men think I should be allowed to appear in fiction.
And so I'll continue to advocate for diverse representation--not just diversity in the sense of race/gender/orientation/etc., but diversity in how those aspects of identity are portrayed and revealed, both explicit and implicit, as both heroes and villains, as central to characters' identities and as just another piece of who they are.
The world I live in isn't one of binaries. It's a place with way more ands than ors.