I want to make sure I am understanding the capabilities and limits of the Silent Image spell.
If I were gambling and playing cards, could I use Silent Image to alter the faces of the cards/dice (in other words cover up the actual result with the image of the result I wanted). Is this viable? Obviously I know you would need to be able to cast it without somatic or verbal components or it'd give away any attempt at cheating.
As a GM I'd allow it. I'd also have the other gamblers pull weapons on the caster if they found out what was going on.
Sounds like a (rules) legit use of the spell, but note that the dealer or anyone else handling the cards would get a Will save as they are interacting with the illusion. If the dealer is in on the cheat, that's no problem, but if not that could be bad for you.
Silent image is a figment illusion, so it can't alter the appearance of something else, like a card or a die. Glamer illusions can alter the appearance of something, so look for a spell with the glamer sub-school.
Actually, they wouldn't be interacting with it outside of seeing it. There is that rule that they receive their save only if they suspect something. I would activate the spell while the cards were in my hand, namely as I picked them up, or say I needed a certain card, when the dealer slid it over, I'd activate the spell as I placed my hand on it. And I would shut the spell off as soon as the cards return to the deck. Obviously you would need to be smart about it and not overuse it or attract unnecessary attention, and a still/silent detect magic would let me know if anybody's got true seeing or similar effects active before I decide to play, or, if they activated it after the start of the game, I can decide whether or not to fold and quit while I'm ahead.
Silent Image wrote: This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you. The illusion does not create sound, smell, texture, or temperature. You can move the image within the limits of the size of the effect. So this allows you to make one visual figment, so you could fake one card, or a whole hand, and win all the time. Remember this only applies to vision, and not anything else. However, you would have to recast the spell every time, since this only affects up to one or two cards (in your hand), or a card on the table, which is tricky, since you would have to be able to time it just right.
As Brew Bird said though, they do get Perception and Sense Motive checks if you are caught winning too much, and could suspect your foul play in a bad way.
You might be able to get away with using Prestidigitation for cheating as well, but you will run into the same problems as Silent Image.
Darksol the Painbringer wrote: Silent Image wrote: This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you. The illusion does not create sound, smell, texture, or temperature. You can move the image within the limits of the size of the effect. So this allows you to make one visual figment, so you could fake one card, or a whole hand, and win all the time. Remember this only applies to vision, and not anything else. However, you would have to recast the spell every time, since this only affects up to one or two cards (in your hand), or a card on the table, which is tricky, since you would have to be able to time it just right.
As Brew Bird said though, they do get Perception and Sense Motive checks if you are caught winning too much, and could suspect your foul play in a bad way.
You might be able to get away with using Prestidigitation for cheating as well, but you will run into the same problems as Silent Image. Actually using prestidigitation this way would technically be duplicating another spell's effect, which is not allowed.
Archomedes wrote: Silent image is a figment illusion, so it can't alter the appearance of something else, like a card or a die. Glamer illusions can alter the appearance of something, so look for a spell with the glamer sub-school. I'm not "altering" the card(s) per say, I am putting an image over it, basically concealing the actual card(s) with a figment of another card
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Prestidigitation can produce crude objects... so if you want to cheat with fake cards that look like they were drawn in crayon, sure, go ahead.
Don't forget that people can see that you are casting a spell, even without verbal or somantic gestures. You want something like bard spellsong feat.
Also, butting the image over an object *is* changing the objects appearance. So you would need a glamour spell, not a figment
Figments create objects, glammers change objects.
You are trying to create a glammer effect with a figment, which isn't allowed.
Spellcasting is also super obvious, you can't conceal that you are casting a spell without a special ability (like Spellsong) that says you can. Someone would probably be very suspicious of you if they saw you casting (and they will) even if they can't identify what you cast.
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BigP4nda wrote: Archomedes wrote: Silent image is a figment illusion, so it can't alter the appearance of something else, like a card or a die. Glamer illusions can alter the appearance of something, so look for a spell with the glamer sub-school. I'm not "altering" the card(s) per say, I am putting an image over it, basically concealing the actual card(s) with a figment of another card They'd at least get Perception checks to see your fingers going through the thin layer of illusion, then.
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While I agree that you'd need a glamour instead of a figment to change the appearance of a card, it should also be possible to use a figment to either replace a card you've hidden with SoH or add a card to your hand (on top of another). For the latter, I would likely allow you a SoH check to obscure what you've done, as a successful perception check would reveal it appears you have an extra card. (The latter also makes it more dangerous to set your hand down.)
The issue is more that it takes a non-trivial amount of time to cast and to maintain, which would really start to telegraph you're doing something after a few rounds. Also, the fact that Silent Image uses a focus is possibly a minor issue you'd need to Bluff away.
You might be able to mitigate this between Quicken and Effortless Trickery though.
Lastly I wouldn't say a Silent, Still spell is "super obvious", but RAW always allows the spellcraft check to identify it... "evident" might be the word I'd use, even if they can't quite tell what you're doing.
So it seems there are some who say it works, and some who say it wouldn't because of the fact that I would be duplicating another spells effect.
The following question is where in the rules does it say you can't use any spell to duplicate another's effect? I figured that only applied to spells that explicitly stated that was disallowed (i.e. Prestidigitation).
As for the timing of the casting, I could just have a habit of some sort of ritual (such as kissing my escort; spitting into and rubbing my hands together; tapping my fingers on the table; etc.) before picking up my cards. Or maybe I have OCD and have to pick up and replace my cards three times before looking at them, getting around the actual spellcasting part is not the issue here, it's whether or not using the spell this way is valid, that's all I want to know, please don't answer questions I didn't ask, I would like to keep this thread from becoming a senseless debate over a topic that wasn't even originally stated.
Okay. To answer the question you asked:
BigP4nda wrote: I want to make sure I am understanding the capabilities and limits of the Silent Image spell.
If I were gambling and playing cards, could I use Silent Image to alter the faces of the cards/dice (in other words cover up the actual result with the image of the result I wanted). Is this viable? Obviously I know you would need to be able to cast it without somatic or verbal components or it'd give away any attempt at cheating.
illusion school of magic wrote:
Figment: A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. It is not a personalized mental impression. Figments cannot make something seem to be something else.
No. you cannot change the face of a die or card. You can make it look like there is an extra die or card, and possibly with SoH you can hide the original die or card. But you cannot change the appearance of the die or card.
There are also lots of other reasons it doesn't work. But you don't want to know about those, and they are irrelevant, because this part doesn't work in the first place.
FLite wrote: Okay. To answer the question you asked:
BigP4nda wrote: I want to make sure I am understanding the capabilities and limits of the Silent Image spell.
If I were gambling and playing cards, could I use Silent Image to alter the faces of the cards/dice (in other words cover up the actual result with the image of the result I wanted). Is this viable? Obviously I know you would need to be able to cast it without somatic or verbal components or it'd give away any attempt at cheating.
illusion school of magic wrote:
Figment: A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. It is not a personalized mental impression. Figments cannot make something seem to be something else.
No. you cannot change the face of a die or card. You can make it look like there is an extra die or card, and possibly with SoH you can hide the original die or card. But you cannot change the appearance of the die or card.
There are also lots of other reasons it doesn't work. But you don't want to know about those, and they are irrelevant, because this part doesn't work in the first place.
Okay, thanks. That clarifies it, though it is a bit disappointing. I had actually thought of another clever trick, using Minor Image to look like I roll a die, but actually it's an illusion and the die never left my hand, the result is always my intent and whenever they think the die is weighted I can just let them assure themselves it is not. haha
Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Sounds to me like you need to have your silent image as a spell-like supernatural ability, rather than as a cast spell. Because contrary to apparent logic, even with silent spell, still spell and eschew materials, anyone with the spellcraft skill can try to see your spellcasting.
Otherwise you need it to be a two-man operation: one who is playing, and a confederate who is casting out of public scrutiny.
An illusion of a die rolling across the table while you conceal the real die in your hand would be possible, although you would want to use the 2nd level minor image instead of silent image. The absence of the characteristic sound of the rolling dice would be a dead give-away.
Remember that in a world where such trivial cheats are possible, most gamblers are going to be aware of that, and guard against it.
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