I personally don't feel mystic bolt is as hopeless as many around here seem to. I think it has a lot of potential, and it's something different. I also don't measure everything by DPR as far as the worth of a class either.
I do agree changes would be good for the health of the class, but I think we are much closer than most people think.
As is, they're pretty awful. How long before resistance come along? It would be like saying short sword, weapon finesse build [without dex to damage] "has a lot of potential" with DR/5 creatures around. Even with a bucket full of attacks, knocking off 5 off each attack is kind of sad. It only gets worse as you level up. Best case you ignore spells and grab arcane striker and a few extra bolt talents and spend every feat on ranged combat to hold off totally sucking a few extra levels. And worse off, by the time you can't hurt anything, you don't have full spellcasting to fall back on as you've ignored it to keep bolts up.
Not seeing the awesome potential as-is. You might not care about DPR but you should agree it needs to be positive and past a point, the warlock bolter can't mange that. They need to add a elemental energy bypass/ignore talent/feat to have a hope of a bolter keeping relevant as they level.
Graystone has it right.
Imagine you're fighting an Ooze as a rogue with a weapon finesse short sword with no Dex to damage and it has dr10/-.
Let's say you're level 20 even for maximum damage.
You do 3d6+10 (For some reason this Ooze is evil). An average of 20 damage, or 10 after DR. So your 7 attacks even if all hit did a total of 70 damage.
About what a Barbarian does at this level in a single attack.
Yep, after a few levels, you're better off picking up a Quarterstaff of Entwined Serpents and firing off 2 magic missiles every round out of your tattoo chamber than it is using your bolts as you'll do more damage, hit more creatures and can target incorporeal targets. Sadly 5,050 gp worth of magic item kicks the feature's butt.
Though I should revise my assessment a bit. A DM COULD manufacture a world with no resistances to allow a bolter to contribute. I wouldn't call it an average one but it could exist. All my comments are directed to an 'average' game where resistances become more common as you level.
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]As is, they're pretty awful. How long before resistance come along? It would be like saying short sword, weapon finesse build [without dex to damage] "has a lot of potential" with DR/5 creatures around. Even with a bucket full of attacks, knocking off 5 off each attack is kind of sad. It only gets worse as you level up.
See, I have had plenty of fun with characters who were finesse builds, long before dex to damage was a thing. The key was having a plan B, C, and D, and knowing my own limitations. I'm not the DPR guy in those cases, but might shine some of the time. The vigilante shouldn't be your DPR guy either.
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And I'm pretty sure those Finesse builds were Commoners, because thats what you'd be. You are making excuses. What you describe is more akin to you Being a melee character with no ranged weapon against a Flyer. What the situation is now is that you invested heavily in melee and your attacks are but a wet noodle slapping against its skin. That is a very big problem. A Plan(Insert Letter) Won't matter if your main plan doesnt work 90% of the time. In that case why not just have invested in Plan (Letter) in the first place and be better off?
There is only two factors to combat, DPR and Utility.
If you were a rogue not bringing DPR, you definitely didn't have utility in the fight, so sorry to say, while you might have had fun, you were just sandbagging your group.
If your group and you are fine with that, more power to you. I'm not and when I DM I don't accommodate for it.
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I'm not sure what games you are playing in where you couldn't select an element that will get through DR more than 10% of the time. I bet it would be hard to find one (even fire) that won't be effective 50% of the time unless you are playing in a campaign with a theme with lots of resistant creatures (like a demon compaign for example). Take knowledges (arcana, local, and planes are in class for the warlock), use those skill points, and if you see something your blasts won't take down, either use a different tactic (like your spell casting or UMD) or shoot at something else. Heck, have a weapon! You are a 3/4 BAB character, not a full caster, and you already are investing in some things that will work for weapons as well as bolts, so go ahead and use them.
I bet in published modules and scenarios, 50% or better of enemies are humanoids, giving plenty of opportunities to use "plan A" if bolts are what you want to build around.
PS - If a character can use the same tactic 90% of the time, it's a character I don't want to play.
Honestly, can we stop with these "Well I had fun with it!" comments? I mean, no offence, but THEY LITERALLY MEAN NOTHING. I can have fun playing a commoner, does that mean it is a valid PC class? NO. Fun is a subjective thing. Quit using that as a measure.
I can go look at any creature above CR 10 and an overwhelming majority of them will have at least 1 resistance, or worse, flat out immunity to at least 1 elemental type.
This is exceedingly common.
Success is measured in how often you are able to be effective.
You know how terrible rogues are when they can't apply sneak attack? And how awful they feel? Now make that occur 25x more often.
]As is, they're pretty awful. How long before resistance come along? It would be like saying short sword, weapon finesse build [without dex to damage] "has a lot of potential" with DR/5 creatures around. Even with a bucket full of attacks, knocking off 5 off each attack is kind of sad. It only gets worse as you level up.See, I have had plenty of fun with characters who were finesse builds, long before dex to damage was a thing. The key was having a plan B, C, and D, and knowing my own limitations. I'm not the DPR guy in those cases, but might shine some of the time. The vigilante shouldn't be your DPR guy either.
LOL you missed my point. I had finesse characters too. MY point was that a d6 plus a low bonus vs a defense that reduce damage by 5 doesn't leave much damage done. My issue with how it currently is that there IS no plan B, C, and D. AT best I spend yet another talent to deal another kind of damage. Whoopy! :P
Lets put a our warlock vs a suli expert. Lets say it's ranged combat on both sides. Even if the suli never hits you how long if it going to take to kill the suli? Starts off with 1d6+2-5 at 4th. Blast away, another vigilante will be able to change identities before you kill him. It only gets worse from there. Aasimars, tieflings, oread, sylph, ifrit, Undine, Fetchling and elves are normal human-like NPC's that can have resistances. Lowly creatures from summon monsters 1 have resistances 5. It only gets worse. By level 6 when you can first get another element to blast, you're more likely to have encounters vs resistance. You start meeting outsiders, you might as well swap to your social form and start baking bread because you aren't going to do anything in combat.
As to "The vigilante shouldn't be your DPR guy either": He should do SOMETHING in combat. There's a good chance they aren't dealing their elemental damage so they what? Pick up another weapon? targeting AC at range with 3/4 and no buffs. Might do as much damage as your bolts. Skills? I can pick up an expert for that. UMD? Again, it you're using expendables, I can buy an expert for that. If your plan for how to be useful is to be as good as an expert, I'm not impressed.
Aasimar and Tiefling commoners apparently can (with a 75% probability), at most, take 2 damage from the bolt from something level 3 or lower... oh and at most (without arcane striker) can take... 6 damage. COOL... A suli literally has all the resistances so they can just laugh it off... thats bad.
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I'm sorry whut?
We should stop measuring the fun we have?
Pixie Dust, you really need to calm down when it comes to this stuff. Fun is a perfectly fine measurement, along with the other measurements.
Your histrionic, repetitious complaints is a big part of why I have started pulling away from this playtest. But trying to invalidate others opinions is a bridge too far.
Be cool, it's a game. Fun is basically the measurement that matters.
I'm sorry whut?
We should stop measuring the fun we have?
Pixie Dust, you really need to calm down when it comes to this stuff. Fun is a perfectly fine measurement, along with the other measurements.
Your histrionic, repetitious complaints is a big part of why I have started pulling away from this playtest. But trying to invalidate others opinions is a bridge too far.
Be cool, it's a game. Fun is basically the measurement that matters.
Fun is not a measurement of the worth of a class. I can have just as much fun playing an expert as playing a barbarian, that doesn't make the expert a good class, nor does it make my expert liked by my party just because I personally enjoy him.
Objectivity is what matters. Objectively the Barbarian is better than a commoner, regardless of which is more fun to play.
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I'm sorry whut?
We should stop measuring the fun we have?
Pixie Dust, you really need to calm down when it comes to this stuff. Fun is a perfectly fine measurement, along with the other measurements.
Your histrionic, repetitious complaints is a big part of why I have started pulling away from this playtest. But trying to invalidate others opinions is a bridge too far.
Be cool, it's a game. Fun is basically the measurement that matters.
He isnt wrong and if you pull away from the playtests because his words seem offensive to you its likely because.. well.. they are true.
Constructive opinions on why you had fun and what have you are fine. They however are not Constructive when your argument is solely based on that against a FACTUAL ISSUE. Similarly with the Monk, Fighter and Rogue. Saying you had fun won't make them less bad nor fix any issues. It won't negate the fact that there is a problem brought up.
Yeah but saying "well I had fun with it" is a poor measure of the capability of the class. A playtest is like a beta test. You are not measuring "fun", you are looking to see if it WORKS and if there are any problems that may arise from poor "coding" (or in this case, things like spelling issues, semantic issues, poor wording of abilities, possible interactions with prior work the developers may not have noticed, ect). The "fun" of a class is not the primary measure of a playtest unless the class is so obviously broken that it makes it almost unfun (much like how the original Hunter was or the first take of the Zealot) universally.
Im pretty sure you just said you don't like playing any class ever. As a large majority of Martials at least tend to fall under that scale. " Put the pointy end in the monster "
PS - If a character can use the same tactic 90% of the time, it's a character I don't want to play.
LOL Well you can move and attack once or not move and attack a few times so it not the EXACT same thing 90% of the time. ;)
I'm sorry whut?
We should stop measuring the fun we have?
Pixie Dust, you really need to calm down when it comes to this stuff. Fun is a perfectly fine measurement, along with the other measurements.
Your histrionic, repetitious complaints is a big part of why I have started pulling away from this playtest. But trying to invalidate others opinions is a bridge too far.
Be cool, it's a game. Fun is basically the measurement that matters.
Having fun is a meaningless measurement as the amount of fun you have isn't quantifiable by the mechanics. I've had fun with NPC classes but that doesn't mean they should be now counted as PC classes or they are as viable. For the playtest, the standard should be how they stand up to the other classes, how useful they where in a party, ect. Thing that can be changed. 'I had fun' or 'I didn't have fun' isn't something they can change. that can't come to your house and alter the fun you had.
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LOL you missed my point. I had finesse characters too. MY point was that a d6 plus a low bonus vs a defense that reduce damage by 5 doesn't leave much damage done. My issue with how it currently is that there IS no plan B, C, and D. AT best I spend yet another talent to deal another kind of damage. Whoopy! :P
How can you not have a plan B? You are a tier 2 (6th level) casting class? You have UMD + the wizard/sorcerer spell list. Even if you don't have something to directly damage the enemy (which is doubtful) you can still contribute. Haste the party, and the barbarian or paladin chops through that much faster (or give that barbarian or paladin heroism, they'll love that too!). Put resistances on your party to frustrate your enemy just like you are now frustrated. Blind the enemy...put it to sleep...debuff his stats, or just summon a creature that CAN hit the enemy,
Plan B isn't let me find a way to force plan A through. It's find something else entirely to do. I think the disconnection here is how we look at mystic bolt. You look at it and see "gee, this touch attack won't work a lot of the time, so I can't just use that as my primary weapon all the time", while I look at it and go "wow, this touch attack can be spammed all day, which will allow me to save my spells for those instances when I really need them."
LOL you missed my point. I had finesse characters too. MY point was that a d6 plus a low bonus vs a defense that reduce damage by 5 doesn't leave much damage done. My issue with how it currently is that there IS no plan B, C, and D. AT best I spend yet another talent to deal another kind of damage. Whoopy! :P
How can you not have a plan B? You are a tier 2 (6th level) casting class? You have UMD + the wizard/sorcerer spell list. Even if you don't have something to directly damage the enemy (which is doubtful) you can still contribute. Haste the party, and the barbarian or paladin chops through that much faster (or give that barbarian or paladin heroism, they'll love that too!). Put resistances on your party to frustrate your enemy just like you are now frustrated. Blind the enemy...put it to sleep...debuff his stats, or just summon a creature that CAN hit the enemy,
Plan B isn't let me find a way to force plan A through. It's find something else entirely to do. I think the disconnection here is how we look at mystic bolt. You look at it and see "gee, this touch attack won't work a lot of the time, so I can't just use that as my primary weapon all the time", while I look at it and go "wow, this touch attack can be spammed all day, which will allow me to save my spells for those instances when I really need them."
So you're saying your Plan B, is to be a terrible Magus?
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You know what's really good about Warlock? That after I take 4 levels of it, I can then go 16 levels of Magus, and be everything the Warlock would have gotten from lvls 4 and higher, for free, and THEN way more.
16 Magus / Warlock 4 is a BETTER WARLOCK than a 20th level Warlock. Do you see the problem?
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So you're saying your Plan B, is to be a terrible Magus?
If Plan B was to be a great Magus, then who would play a Magus. I've seen several Magus characters who depended on critical shocking grasps run into the same types of issues when something was immune to electricity. This is nothing new, and not specific to the vigilante.
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You know what's really good about Warlock? That after I take 4 levels of it, I can then go 16 levels of Magus, and be everything the Warlock would have gotten from lvls 4 and higher, for free, and THEN way more.
16 Magus / Warlock 4 is a BETTER WARLOCK than a 20th level Warlock. Do you see the problem?
I'd argue you wasted 2 too many levels on Warlock in that build. So yes, I see the issue.
If Plan B was to be a great Magus, then who would play a Magus. I've seen several Magus characters who depended on critical shocking grasps run into the same types of issues when something was immune to electricity. This is nothing new, and not specific to the vigilante.So you're saying your Plan B, is to be a terrible Magus?
Turns out there are other spells he can cast though. Only inexperienced players who read occasionally read forums make a magus so easily shut down. Force Hook CHarge, bladed dash, ghoul touch, frost touch, there are MANY options.
And in fact the strongest magus are not the "Hihg dex, dump str, weapon finesse, dervish dancing magus with a ramped out shocking grasp".... the Defiler build Hexcrafter is terrifying (you can pretty much lock down all the things with a wall of penalties) and Str Magus are actually stronger (they just take longer to get online). The Kensai can actually also become a very strong competitor due to having the Katana with 1 handed proficency for free and quicker access to fighter feats. Oh and having some STUPID CRAZY AC.
LOL you missed my point. I had finesse characters too. MY point was that a d6 plus a low bonus vs a defense that reduce damage by 5 doesn't leave much damage done. My issue with how it currently is that there IS no plan B, C, and D. AT best I spend yet another talent to deal another kind of damage. Whoopy! :P
How can you not have a plan B? You are a tier 2 (6th level) casting class? You have UMD + the wizard/sorcerer spell list. Even if you don't have something to directly damage the enemy (which is doubtful) you can still contribute. Haste the party, and the barbarian or paladin chops through that much faster (or give that barbarian or paladin heroism, they'll love that too!). Put resistances on your party to frustrate your enemy just like you are now frustrated. Blind the enemy...put it to sleep...debuff his stats, or just summon a creature that CAN hit the enemy,
Plan B isn't let me find a way to force plan A through. It's find something else entirely to do. I think the disconnection here is how we look at mystic bolt. You look at it and see "gee, this touch attack won't work a lot of the time, so I can't just use that as my primary weapon all the time", while I look at it and go "wow, this touch attack can be spammed all day, which will allow me to save my spells for those instances when I really need them."
What level are you talking about? At low level, you have to toss ALL your talents into bolts to make them do something for a few levels. If you're talking about 20th, you wasted those bolts as you're going to have to look FAR and wide to find something the bolts to anything to. SO you're a caster that gimped themselves as a caster. That's not a plan B, that's changing your plan A as the old one doesn't do anything anymore.
You seem to have forgotten that you where talking about how cool, awesome, useful the bolts where. Still looking for that in your plan B is a crappy caster that could have been better is they hadn't used up a talent on bolts.
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I'd argue you wasted 2 too many levels on Warlock in that build. So yes, I see the issue.You know what's really good about Warlock? That after I take 4 levels of it, I can then go 16 levels of Magus, and be everything the Warlock would have gotten from lvls 4 and higher, for free, and THEN way more.
16 Magus / Warlock 4 is a BETTER WARLOCK than a 20th level Warlock. Do you see the problem?
I'd say your and my own definition on what makes a build are two worlds apart.
Let's do a fun thought experiment. Let's list all the classes that could use Mystic Bolts better than a 20th Warlock shall we? Should be fun.
Warlock - 1d6+10+(2d6(Evil?))
Samurai / Cavalier - 1d6+1+16 - Static Damage beats dice rolls. Higher to-hit too. Winner.
Magus - 1d6+1+Touch Spellstrike (No arcana anymore to do this?) Winner.
Rogue, Ninja, Vivisectionist - TWF Sneak Attacks against Touch? Winner.
Paladin - 1d6+1+16 - Smiting Touch attacks? From Range? Winner.
Ranger - 1d6+10+1+Quarry - FE against Touch and Quarry? Auto hit? Winner.
Slayer - 1d6+5+1+Quarry+Sneak Attack - Winner
Fighter - 1d6+1+(Weaponmaster(Weapon Training)(Since it can pick anything))+Greater Weapon Spec+Dueling Gloves? Winner.
Can I keep going? I could.
Warpriest - 2d6+1+Weapon Specialization+Sacred Weapon+Divine Spell buffing? Winner.
Inquisitor - 1d6+1+GREATER BANE+Divine Spells+Judgment - WINNER.
I skimmed the thread, but I personally feel Mystic Bolt is a great place to bring in new kinds of weapon mechanics.
I'm fine with it being a ray/touch attack, but it needs to be a base ability, not a talent. A talent should allow you to add all energy types to it and convert the damage to that type. The base type should function like a generic energy blast that is subject to DR. It should require talents or level progression to bypass DR.
Damage should not be based on level, but rather INT. Just like a weapon, you should add your INT on damage rolls instead of STR, but still require DEX/STR to hit. Offhand rays/touches should do 1/2 INT.
Let weapon specialization etc. apply to it, treat it as a weapon. Doesn't need to be amped up like magic weapon though because it's a touch.
I also really want to see Spell Combat from the magus as a talent that is selectable, so you can do the bolts and spellcasting together. Also because it's a damn shame that the magus is the only class still that gets it.
Mystic Bolts make me think of the DSP Psionics stuff. Paizo could pull a lot of inspiration from the Soulbolt archetype for the Soulknife. Add some enhancements, give options to add riders to the elemental damage types (like a chance to ignite with fire, a slow with cold, lingering damage with acid, etc.) Give the rider enhancement limited uses per day or put a "a target can only be affected by this use once per day" caveat on it if you're worried about spammable rider effects.
Mystic Bolts is more or less the Eldritch Blast for the 3.x Warlocks of old. Give us options to actually make it interesting. More damage is one place to start, for sure, as is options to get around resistances. But giving it some cool, flavorful abilities would lend itself well to the class, which judging by things like the Stalker talents aims to have some unique abilities that other classes can't easily replicate. Anyone can deal ranged damage, give us something cool.
I personally don't feel mystic bolt is as hopeless as many around here seem to. I think it has a lot of potential, and it's something different. I also don't measure everything by DPR as far as the worth of a class either.
I do agree changes would be good for the health of the class, but I think we are much closer than most people think.
the problem is that the ability is pretty much null at higher levels if only because of the ubiquity of energy resistances. The bolt could be great if it started non elemental and you could take stuff to make it elemental to add features to it, say nausea, stagger, etc.
I think if it started non-elemental, spending anything to make it elemental is a trap. Spending to be non-elemental at higher levels makes more sense.
Vulnerabilities sometimes make elemental damage quite attractive.
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Resistances are so much more common than vulnerabilities, that "pure", force, or sonic damage will be superior 99% of the time. I certainly wouldn't use a talent to get elemental damage over untyped damage, when I can get something else (like spellcasting) that I'll use a lot more.
Resistances are so much more common than vulnerabilities, that "pure", force, or sonic damage will be superior 99% of the time. I certainly wouldn't use a talent to get elemental damage over untyped damage, when I can get something else (like spellcasting) that I'll use a lot more.
I think you might have missed that it also wasn't just the damage he suggested. "elemental to add features to it, say nausea, stagger, etc." So Acid and nausea looks more attractive than untyped as would cold and stagger when facing non-resistant foes or maybe even some resistant ones if the condition was more helpful than the damage.
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I understand. It's adding elemental touch effects to become a debuffer. I agree that should be a way to increase your power on an elemental attack. I just feel the tree should be more along the lines of...
Tier 1 - (level 4)
Mystic Bolt - of One of the 4 classic elemental forces (Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire) [Can be taken multiple times if you want multiple elements]
Tier 2 - (level 8)
Improved Mystic Bolt - Add 1d6 damage to elemental bolts and a status effect (per elemental touch) to your elemental mystic bolts [Requires Mystic Bolt]
Force Bolt - You may convert your Mystic bolt damage into force damage. [Requires Mystic Bolt]
Tier 3 - (level 12)
Greater Mystic Bolt - Added 1d6 damage to elemental bolts and allow status effects to stack (eg Sickened --> Naseated) [Requires Improved Mystic Bolt]
Improved Force Bolt - Add 1d6 damage to your force bolt. [Requires Force Bolt]
Force Bolt Defense - You have learned to use your force bolts to shield yourself from oncoming attacks. While fighting defensively or in full defense, you get a +4 shield bonus to your armor class.
Thrawn007: Your talents are cool. For me though, it seems some come online a little late. If you're making a bolter, it seems odd to wait until 4th to start. I think the reason they are currently puting it at 4th is to see if bolts are 'worth' picking over casting. Once they figure that out, I'd hope it becomes a 2nd level pick.
I'd also prefer a way around resistances a bit earlier. I'd like to see force at 6th, even if that'd mean dropping dice down (d4 or d3).
I also thought about a feat/ability/ect that allowed the bolter to be treated as a fighter for bolt feats (maybe even count it's level as BAB for feat prerequisites).
Some love for the melee option would be cool to. Maybe something that allows bolts to count as unarmed strikes (like tenku claws). Flying rocket kicks/escapes can work. An acid touch that ignores hardness, a freezing touch to cover things in ice. Stuff like that.
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Bolts don't need full BAB to hit since they are targeting touch. They need more attacks and a way to add static damage.
When you take Bolts, Vigilante Levels should count as Fighter Levels and BAB for the purposes of feats that affect bolts. This would let you add Specilization/Greater Specialization to help with arcane strike. You could also go Disruptive/Spellbreaker or more easily qualify for critical feats.
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Bolts don't need full BAB to hit since they are targeting touch. They need more attacks and a way to add static damage.
When you take Bolts, Vigilante Levels should count as Fighter Levels and BAB for the purposes of feats that affect bolts. This would let you add Specilization/Greater Specialization to help with arcane strike. You could also go Disruptive/Spellbreaker or more easily qualify for critical feats.
That is a bad idea for multiple reasons and would already tack on the the copious amount of feats this ONE talent needs to be viable. NO, Mystic bolts should be USABLE on its own with massive feat and talent expenditure and BETTER with it. Much like say, the Longbow.
As it goes now those feat would mean it would have no extra feats from 1-20 and still do a piddling 1d6+14 + Extra's at the end.
One per 4 levels, plus INT mod would be good and comparable to weapon damage that already exists.
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Int mod isnt good enough because it wont compare to half or the +level it was before and unlike weapons doesn't have a way to get past Resistance OR immunity.
It also would require an obscene Int to be useful when you already need Dex to fulfill your feat prereqs.
We don't need this to be another Fist of the Avenger, which btw is terrible.
Int mod isnt good enough because it wont compare to half or the +level it was before and unlike weapons doesn't have a way to get past Resistance OR immunity.
It also would require an obscene Int to be useful when you already need Dex to fulfill your feat prereqs.
We don't need this to be another Fist of the Avenger, which btw is terrible.
Int to damage could be part of the solution. Say they get to reduce resistances by thier level and add int to damage. Add some riders on the damage and a scaling bonus to it and I think it wouldn't be bad. Maybe not a damage king but deals ok damage along with status effects could be an interesting niche for it to fill.
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Int to damage could be part of the solution. Say they get to reduce resistances by thier level and add int to damage. Add some riders on the damage and a scaling bonus to it and I think it wouldn't be bad. Maybe not a damage king but deals ok damage along with status effects could be an interesting niche for it to fill.Int mod isnt good enough because it wont compare to half or the +level it was before and unlike weapons doesn't have a way to get past Resistance OR immunity.
It also would require an obscene Int to be useful when you already need Dex to fulfill your feat prereqs.
We don't need this to be another Fist of the Avenger, which btw is terrible.
Part of the Solution yes but a bandaid at most. Getting past immunity will be the biggest part. If they had something along the lines of the Winter Witch's ability to bypass Cold immunity it would help.
And like I said that necessitates High Int High Dex which means we will have a similar issue the Playtest Kineticist had where to be viable you had to go a particular specialization (Water), a particular way, with Particular stats (dump STR and CHA) or you had a bad time.
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I think the based on what we've heard, our best bet right now is not to build warlocks and complain about Mystic bolt. We need to try and break mystic bolt to the extreme.
With that in mind, I've set up a test for some PC's against The Ripper, a BBEG Warlock4/Vivisectionist6 (I might bump him to 7 for a 10 CR to take on Level 7 PC's.)
I'm going to run the fight two ways.
1) Warlock4/Vivisectionist6
Will see if by getting the drop on the PC's using darkvision/darkness, 3d6 sneak damage on rapid shot/TWF mystic acid bolts tear up a party before the warlock dies.
2) Vivisectionist10
See if level 3 and 4 extracts along with 2d6 extra sneak damage have more impact than the mystic bolts.
I think that for the warlock getting playtest data of the strongest we can make mystic bolts will be more valuable than reiterating the same thing that's been said for over a week.
I did play test them, the best way to use them it's on a conductive weapon, but it really didn't do much more than say a flaming weapon.
I think the additional damage for the bolt oughta scale like GMW does, or even like power attack but for caster level. Adding INT to damage would be unique.
Int to damage could be part of the solution. Say they get to reduce resistances by thier level and add int to damage. Add some riders on the damage and a scaling bonus to it and I think it wouldn't be bad. Maybe not a damage king but deals ok damage along with status effects could be an interesting niche for it to fill.Int mod isnt good enough because it wont compare to half or the +level it was before and unlike weapons doesn't have a way to get past Resistance OR immunity.
It also would require an obscene Int to be useful when you already need Dex to fulfill your feat prereqs.
We don't need this to be another Fist of the Avenger, which btw is terrible.
Part of the Solution yes but a bandaid at most. Getting past immunity will be the biggest part. If they had something along the lines of the Winter Witch's ability to bypass Cold immunity it would help.
And like I said that necessitates High Int High Dex which means we will have a similar issue the Playtest Kineticist had where to be viable you had to go a particular specialization (Water), a particular way, with Particular stats (dump STR and CHA) or you had a bad time.
Something like the winter witches ability would work well, i agree.
As to the Kineticist, look at what you have to do for a viable monk. Don't put the right stats in and you have a bad time. Many classes are MAd or almost require a "particular specialization", a "particular way" and/or "Particular stats" to work well. I don't see wanting/needing int for a warlock as out of line. Does a paladins cry that he gets to add CHA to his saves?
Thrawn007: You want to break bolts, send suli's 1/2 the straight warlock's CR against them and see which side comes out better. try it at a few levels. It should be ugly. Then try a few summons with templates. It's just about as bad.
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I think the based on what we've heard, our best bet right now is not to build warlocks and complain about Mystic bolt. We need to try and break mystic bolt to the extreme.
With that in mind, I've set up a test for some PC's against The Ripper, a BBEG Warlock4/Vivisectionist6 (I might bump him to 7 for a 10 CR to take on Level 7 PC's.)
I'm going to run the fight two ways.
1) Warlock4/Vivisectionist6
Will see if by getting the drop on the PC's using darkvision/darkness, 3d6 sneak damage on rapid shot/TWF mystic acid bolts tear up a party before the warlock dies.2) Vivisectionist10
See if level 3 and 4 extracts along with 2d6 extra sneak damage have more impact than the mystic bolts.I think that for the warlock getting playtest data of the strongest we can make mystic bolts will be more valuable than reiterating the same thing that's been said for over a week.
That's nice. You are implying I don't or haven't already done it. I have used Mystic bolts with conductive weapons. My arguments arent the same thing over ad over and your playtest will be skewed because the obvious solution IS to go into a different class.. with defeats the purpose. My build so far has mirrored the above.. its a slightly better Flaming. And that was Before the nerf.