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1) Why would they make a weak ability weaker? Changing the damage to lower just doesn't make any sense. Still can't use deadly aim.
2) In the new rules, it says that the melee attacks are touch attacks. Then it says that it can count as a light melee weapon. This is needlessly confusing. If that is the case, can I use Piranha strike in place of power attack?
3) They really need to make this a base ability that scales. Instead of choices they should really give certain abilities as standards, then tweak the other stuff.
I am feeling the class, it is a great concept. Although it has no place in Pathfinder Society. It would be great for home games and adventure paths. But it still seems way weaker than most other classes. Like take a Kitsune Rogue, at first level you can get +25 to disguise other. Boom, a vigilante noble who turns into a rogue fox during the night. And rogue is way better than vigilante.
You can't use Piranha Strike because Piranha strike specifically says it does not work with touch attacks.
Though, being able to use rapid shot line and TWF line means you can toss out a lot of bolts, which more than makes up for the decreased damage modifier.
Unless you face any energy resistance, which is the new gripe. The new bolts created a problem by fixing another.
I really like the concept of small magic blasts in place of weapon attacks; it simply needs more development. At high levels, DR is a major issue for weapon users until they find a way to bypass it. Since energy resistance performs the same function to Mystic Bolts as DR (except much higher than DR and against much smaller attacks), some bypass mechanism is needed. Some way to give Mystic Bolts enhancement bonuses that ignore resistance instead of DR would go a long way and would help the base damage besides. Enhancement on touch attacks seems scary, except, well, Gunslinger. Explicitly allowing Mystic Bolts to work with Clustered Shot would also help.
With how much investment Mystic Bolts require (2 very precious talents, TWF and enough Dex to qualify for TWF feats), Mystic Bolts need enough support to be your primary form of attack, not just a hobby when residence doesn't happen. Because Gunslingers already get touch attacks (and a higher BAB), they're a good model. If it works for guns, such as Deadly Aim, it should probably work for Mystic Bolts.
That fact is they nerfed it to much. I could see them going +1 dmg per every 2 levels but a max out at plus 5 damage makes a one time cool ability useless. I was planning on starting one on Sunday at my local PFS game but I guess I will just stick with my current avenger.
I just want to see Mystic Bolts made into the proper weapons they're obviously intended to be. Make them compatible with all reasonable ranged feats (especially Deadly Aim and Clustered Shot) and create a set of wrist guards that give them an enhancement bonus and some ability to bypass resistance. This would make them no more powerful than the Gunslinger, who has a higher BAB, better range, more static damage modifiers including full DEX, better damage type (goes against DR), better item support, and many class features that modify their shots. The Gunslinger hits too easily and there's no reason to take Mystic Bolts that far, but it could be taken much further and still compare very reasonably to existing classes.
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I just want to see Mystic Bolts made into the proper weapons they're obviously intended to be. Make them compatible with all reasonable ranged feats (especially Deadly Aim and Clustered Shot) and create a set of wrist guards that give them an enhancement bonus and some ability to bypass resistance. This would make them no more powerful than the Gunslinger, who has a higher BAB, better range, more static damage modifiers including full DEX, better damage type (goes against DR), better item support, and many class features that modify their shots. The Gunslinger hits too easily and there's no reason to take Mystic Bolts that far, but it could be taken much further and still compare very reasonably to existing classes.
Of course gunslinger isn't a 6th level caster along the way.
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I think the enchant line could be interesting, but I wouldn't connect it to mystic bolts.
Mystic Empowerment: The vigilante warlock gains the ability to temporarily put some of their arcane power into weapons. They may use the magic weapon spell at will as a swift action. Starting at level 8, the bonus from the enchantment increases by +1, with an additional +1 for every four levels beyond that (maximum +5 at level 20). This talent may not be taken until 4th level.
Why is this different than magus and warpriest abilities? I can enchant the whole parties weapons and ammo.
I thought about scaling it into greater magic weapon, but with the 1 hour duration on that spell, I'd worry a bit more about that, so just build in the scaling that's equivalent. Doesn't have all the cool tricks of similar abilities, but enchanting others weapons is HUGE.
It would be too powerful, A simple 1/2 level with the base being pure magic energy would be fine.
If they make it wear choosing an element makes it equal level or has an additional 1d6 or 2d6 then you will see a plethora of Bolt Warlocks who arent invalidated.
As it is the number is far too low.
I disagree with the idea of it being too powerful. Don't forget the sheer amount of energy resistances and immunities that will be run into at mid to high levels. Let's say it became 5d6+5, pretty much any weapon will beat that per hit, and if I take arcane strike I also have to burn spell slots which means in terms of opportunity cost to keep up I am spending at least 6 talents on it.
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You are thinking like I am. I've been doing a lot of calculations on my side for warlock/unchained rogue hybrids to hand out massive damage. It looks great on paper.
As for flash, you can get additional flash like having a small collection of wands that you can activate at any time without actually having anyone know you had a wand in the first place. I think this is being completely underestimated. For me, this is the go to talent at level 2, not armor. By level 12 you will have 5 wands on hand at any time which is incredible versatility and action economy.
If you are worried about immunities, you take a 2nd or third bolt type. Odds are you have something to get through. If we are talking high level, you likely can have multiple bolts AND full spellcasting.
My point was that if you're trying to be bolt focused you're eating spells to amp the bolts at a fairly high rate, not to mention having to take the bolt talent multiple times. My point specifically was that the concern that the damage would be excessively high was alarmist.
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On the other hand since you CAN go twf or full ranged blaster, the designers have to be very careful about not letting those builds become too disruptive. Perfect balance is always preferable, but I will always be in favor of too weak over too strong when any option is presented.
I just want to see Mystic Bolts made into the proper weapons they're obviously intended to be. Make them compatible with all reasonable ranged feats (especially Deadly Aim and Clustered Shot) and create a set of wrist guards that give them an enhancement bonus and some ability to bypass resistance. This would make them no more powerful than the Gunslinger, who has a higher BAB, better range, more static damage modifiers including full DEX, better damage type (goes against DR), better item support, and many class features that modify their shots. The Gunslinger hits too easily and there's no reason to take Mystic Bolts that far, but it could be taken much further and still compare very reasonably to existing classes.Of course gunslinger isn't a 6th level caster along the way.
If paizo sticks to its guns the Warlock ould have 2 level 1 spells and cantrips... thats it.
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If you are worried about immunities, you take a 2nd or third bolt type. Odds are you have something to get through. If we are talking high level, you likely can have multiple bolts AND full spellcasting.My point was that if you're trying to be bolt focused you're eating spells to amp the bolts at a fairly high rate, not to mention having to take the bolt talent multiple times. My point specifically was that the concern that the damage would be excessively high was alarmist.
It wasnt alarmist it was based on math as being a bit higher. 5d6+5 is Avg 22.5 and then Arcane Striker adds to it. Im not sure about you but Arcane Strike doesnt cost any spells and can crit. Not to mention the way Dice are its too swingy, i rather it consistent. My proposed method keeps it about useful every time.
Of course gunslinger isn't a 6th level caster along the way.
Sure, which is why I said don't take it that far. Sorry, maybe I didn't make myself clear enough; the Gunslinger comparison merely shows that ranged touch attacks already exist that are ludicrously better than Mystic Bolts are currently. There is plenty of room to grow.
Furthermore, access to 6th level casting doesn't prevent the Magus, Inquisitor, Warpriest, Hunter, Skald, or Alchemist from doing good damage. Heck, Druids, Shamans, Oracles, and Clerics have access to 9th level spells and still fare very well in weapon combat. And all of those classes get their spellcasting automatically in addition to other class features instead of spending most of their features to get it. Warlock shouldn't be as over the top as some of those, but it should compare reasonably, which it currently doesn't. When precedent is considered, your argument doesn't have much to stand on.
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I'm against pure energy or force as the starting damage types for this. I like elemental as a starting point. However, as I've said elsewhere I'd like to see chained talents to make a pure build around bolts viable as an alternative.
Why be against pure arcane? Its not force damage, just increase Elemental damage and you'll be fine. Also one element should be free With the Pure Arcane on anyway.
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I'm against pure energy or force as the starting damage types for this. I like elemental as a starting point. However, as I've said elsewhere I'd like to see chained talents to make a pure build around bolts viable as an alternative.Why be against pure arcane? Its not force damage, just increase Elemental damage and you'll be fine. Also one element should be free With the Pure Arcane on anyway.What do you mean by pure arcane? Just "energy damage" thats effectivly force. Nothing has resitsances to "pure arcane"
The damage/element types in the game are currently
Bashing piercing slashing fire acid ice lightning sonic force.
Sorta positive and negative energy as wellEverything but force has specifci resistances (though I can not think of anything with sonic resistance off hand)
So.. just generic energy doesn't fit in that paradign, thats usually represnted by force damage in the past. Just sheer magic power.
Or did you mean mystic bolt basic does B S or P at the choice when used, then you get one element as well? bsp does 1d6 and elemnents do 1d8?
thats not a horrible idea, except that BSP requires enhancment bonuses to get through DR. but I suppose if your smart about it, you can choes BSP or Elements per target and chose the most effective one
No I meant what I said. Force Damage has connotations, and strengths that this does not. For example Force Damage gets past incorporeality, can damage undamagable spells and items those kinds of things. This would just be untyped energy damage. Like the Feat Arcane Blast. It exists in many facets of the game.
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And so far your argument against it has bared any fruit. Checks and balances are just that. If anything your suggestion is 'two wrongs don't make a right' because ignoring the glaring issue without something of this type would mean it is worthless. Worthless things are a waste of print-space. I would rather something stronger and something weaker, because you can tone down but you can NEVER ramp up. Its the same with martials and why the most liked and balanced classes are things like the Inquisitor.
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Two weak is a problem for the person playing the character. Too strong is a problem for everyone else at the table.
And I don't see the class as worthless. Elemental damage is useful a lot of the time. It just isn't useful all the time. I'm happy with that. Bolts are an investment of 1 talent (2 if you get arcane striker). That doesn't interfere with spellcasting other than deciding whether you want level 2 spells or mystic bolts first.
If your elemental strike can't hit something, use a spell.
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Too weak is a problem for the game just in the way that too strong is but Too strong can be fixed, Too weak cannot. I did not say the class was worthless but the abilities it has tend to be unless you go one true build. And in that case you pale in comparison to already established classes in your field.
Bolts are NOT an investment of 1 talent, they are an investment of 2 talents you must take, delaying of spellcasting (That is already pretty abysmal), and sveral feats to be SUBPAR.
Firing what is essentially a Sorc Bloodline first level power or a glorified cantrip is not useful when you could fire a bow.. or a gun and be better off. As for the 'just cast a spell' answer. What spells? You will have all of 1 or 2 per slot, a few more later on. What is it to say your spells are even useful?
That's the issue right. You're better off just using a bow at this point and arcane striking it since atleast you can clustered shots it.
And it that point, why aren't you just playing a Magus who is way better?
Mystic Bolts is literally the ONLY thing that Warlock has going for it. It needs to be worth the whole rest of the class falling flat.
That's the issue right. You're better off just using a bow at this point and arcane striking it since atleast you can clustered shots it.
And it that point, why aren't you just playing a Magus who is way better?
Mystic Bolts is literally the ONLY thing that Warlock has going for it. It needs to be worth the whole rest of the class falling flat.
I ran the numbers at one point. An expert with a bow could beat a warlock at DPR at level 9.
Considering that the warlock would be substantially better than the expert with a bow due to martial weapon proficiency and Arcane Strike, it's fair to say that Mystic Bolt is a trap option.
I hate to keep harping on my own thread but I really can't see mythic bolts being worth it unless they at least do something in the same vein as this. link
I'm not saying it has to be that at all. But the taxes going on is this class is crazy. You can't tax for spells, then also say, oh also pay this tax for Mystic Bolts because elemental resistances, oh but also pay this tax so you can cast in armor. You're basically just PAYING to be a bad Magus. What?
Let's assume this is the case.
I pay five taxes for spells. I pay for Mystic Bolts and casting in armor. And then arcane striker since it's required to make mystic bolts even do damage. And then take finally, another rank of mystic bolts to try to avoid typing.
So at level 18 I'm finally a Magus without arcane pool or spell combat or spellstrike. THEN at level 20 I can take my first non mandatory talent. #Worth.
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I personally don't feel mystic bolt is as hopeless as many around here seem to. I think it has a lot of potential, and it's something different. I also don't measure everything by DPR as far as the worth of a class either.
I do agree changes would be good for the health of the class, but I think we are much closer than most people think.