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Throwing a bunch of names in the pot can't be the sole draw.
Much of the bad rap for 3pp publishers, I think, comes from differing sense of balance. Each publisher has its own sense of what is "balanced"... when people really like a 3pp, it is largely because that publisher's sense of balance matches that of the reader.
Since each is different, an AP based on each 3pp providing one volume, for example, is a nearly sure-fire way to create a giant failure.
So it comes down to the plan more than the participants. A bad plan with great participants will fail; a great plan will help even poor participants fare better.
So what makes for a great plan? Well, as others (such as OceanshieldWolf) have mentioned, it includes playing to each participant's strengths. I also think having a single Developer responsible for ALL volumes of the AP is key.. to achieving consistency throughout.
I think it is interesting that a few of you seem to think 3PP can't handle consistency or balance when so many of the 3PP freelancers and publishers are the same people who do Paizo products as freelancers. Let's be real, Paizo has had balance problems too, but I don't see the same backlash as with 3PP. Paizo at its core is that it is also a 3PP or the OGL. I know when I pitched 3PP and people what I was planning many were very interested in the concept and better still it gave a chance to showcase their campaign setting and specialties in game design.
I just feel bad when I hear that 3PP who have been given 5-star reviews with seal of approval from Endzeitgeist are "not professional" or "have balance issues". It does not make sense, at least to me. 3PP has evolved from the days of 3.5 OGL and kickstarter has proven that (good and bad). If someone offer you a AP done by 3PP on a theme/idea you found interesting, why wouldn't you offer to support them for $20 for the PDFs?
I think Urath DM's point wasn't that 3PP are inherently worse than Paizo at balance. I think their point was that every publisher has their own view as to what constitutes balance - so mixing lots of different publishers up isn't going to be a great idea unless there's one over-arching developer.
I figure the view expressed in that post doesnt change even if Paizo is included as one of the 3PPs.
Certainly I never use 3PP products in my APs or when I run Paizo's modules. That's not because I consider them unbalanced though, it's because theme and style matters to me the most and sticking to one publisher helps achieve that (in fact, I prefer imbalance).
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Throwing a bunch of names in the pot can't be the sole draw.
Much of the bad rap for 3pp publishers, I think, comes from differing sense of balance. Each publisher has its own sense of what is "balanced"... when people really like a 3pp, it is largely because that publisher's sense of balance matches that of the reader.
Since each is different, an AP based on each 3pp providing one volume, for example, is a nearly sure-fire way to create a giant failure.
So it comes down to the plan more than the participants. A bad plan with great participants will fail; a great plan will help even poor participants fare better.
So what makes for a great plan? Well, as others (such as OceanshieldWolf) have mentioned, it includes playing to each participant's strengths. I also think having a single Developer responsible for ALL volumes of the AP is key.. to achieving consistency throughout.
I think it is interesting that a few of you seem to think 3PP can't handle consistency or balance when so many of the 3PP freelancers and publishers are the same people who do Paizo products as freelancers. Let's be real, Paizo has had balance problems too, but I don't see the same backlash as with 3PP. Paizo at its core is that it is also a 3PP or the OGL. I know when I pitched 3PP and people what I was planning many were very interested in the concept and better still it gave a chance to showcase their campaign setting and specialties in game design.
I just feel bad when I hear that 3PP who have been given 5-star reviews with seal of approval from Endzeitgeist are "not professional" or "have balance issues". It does not make sense, at least to me. 3PP has evolved from the days of 3.5 OGL and kickstarter has proven that (good and bad). If someone offer you a AP done by 3PP on a theme/idea you found interesting, why wouldn't you offer to support them for $20 for the PDFs?
If you don't see backlash about Paizo's balance and quality issues, it is because you aren't paying very close attention.
Exactly, Mr. Geddes.
My point is not that 3pp can't produce balanced material. It is that each publisher has a different sense of what is "balanced", of tone, of style; and an AP in which each publisher contributes one adventure (as a hypothetical model) would mean that the sense of balance, tone, and style would vary from volume to volume. It would feel less like an AP and more like a series of individual modules strung together. And, yes, even if Paizo is one of the participants, that remains the case.
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I might buy it after the fact, depends on a lot. After the Fire Mountain Games fiasco I am not as hot on the idea of supporting 3PP who I have not supported on Kickstarter before.I supported this kickstarter because I really like Way of the Wicked, I would likely have bought the new one after it was published anyway. I will not support another kickstarter by that company and I likely buy their work after the it is completed in the future.
I am not as interesting in supporting a kickstarter for companies I do not have as much Kickstarter history with.To me the way to mitigate that issue might be support it at a lower finical level. What do you feel about that?
It is not about the money, and I support kickstarters at the level of the reward I want. It is about the frustration of a bad kickstarter. The companies I named before, I will likely do most or all of their kickstarters.
This is a strange thread. You asked for people's opinions on the idea of a 3PP Kickstarter, and when they give you their opinion you seem to argue about their stance. I thought you were just looking for information not trying to change their ideas about 3PP kickstarters.
It really just depends on the concept, setting and theme of the Adventure Path. I probably wouldn't buy one that was set specifically in a third party publisher's setting because I play in Golarion settings. However, if it was an adventure path that could be adapted to any setting ala the ongoing Legendary Planet kickstarter, then I would be much more inclined to support it.
I would love to see a collaboration between a bunch of different 3pps for an adventure path. It'd be cool to face off against a villain who uses Dreamscarred Psionics in one volume and then grab tomes of Deep Magic spells in another.
It really just depends on the concept, setting and theme of the Adventure Path. I probably wouldn't buy one that was set specifically in a third party publisher's setting because I play in Golarion settings. However, if it was an adventure path that could be adapted to any setting ala the ongoing Legendary Planet kickstarter, then I would be much more inclined to support it.
After seeing this twice (port over to Golorian), I find it odd. The whole concept of 3PP is that they exist without being able to name or use Golorian "fluff." Any adventure can be made to fit a setting with a little work from personal experiences.
What exactly does it mean to be "easily" adapted?
Not use 3PP classes regularly?
Not use 3PP locations for the AP?
Not use religion as a basis, or even part of the plot, for the campaign?
To me that limits what the AP can be about way too much and guts the AP of any real identify it could have. Having one of a 3PP class the whole AP makes it seem like they are unique or one off. And pretty much makes it clone of any other adventure you can buy that uses the OGL. Having the 3PP making the AP, creating organizations that allow you to get a feel for what the class(es) are supposed to be like, is pretty much what you would want from them no?
I'm not asking this to be a jerk, and I'm sure the OP would probably like to know the answer too. It just seems to me, that trying it to make the AP capable of fitting Golorian, defeats the purpose of having 3PP collaboration in making it and imposes undue constraints on the creativity that the 3PP has to make the product unique.
Real simple question: Would you support a joint 3PP Adventure Path on Kickstarter? As for 3PP we are talking all the top people and companies? Thanks!
Convince me that you're building a quality arc, not spot-welding different scenarios together.
Convince me that you can write actual high-level adventures, not just low-level adventures with bigger numbers.
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If you don't see backlash about Paizo's balance and quality issues, it is because you aren't paying very close attention.
LOL! No, I have seen the "backlash" but normally you don't see it in sales. It reminds me of Games Workshop fans who complain about them then buy two copies of an item.
This is a strange thread. You asked for people's opinions on the idea of a 3PP Kickstarter, and when they give you their opinion you seem to argue about their stance. I thought you were just looking for information not trying to change their ideas about 3PP kickstarters.
My thought is "where is the line where people say no 3PP?" Richard Pett has written for Paizo, Kobold Press and my company LPJ Design. I am assuming the quality level between the three are "close" but there are people who are like "no 3PP because of balance". For me that phrase is "muddy". I don't want to change someones mind BUT I want to understand what lead them to the "No".
I'm not asking this to be a jerk, and I'm sure the OP would probably like to know the answer too. It just seems to me, that trying it to make the AP capable of fitting Golorian, defeats the purpose of having 3PP collaboration in making it and imposes undue constraints on the creativity that the 3PP has to make the product unique.
That is exactly how I feel. Golorian to me is "generic fantasy" while most 3PP is "niche fantasy". Do people really want more generic fantasy, or are they looking for something a little different and unique that they can add to their home game? Plus, I think that like with most things, people who are 3PP fans take bits and pieces from several 3PP sources to add to their home setting as needed.
It really just depends on the concept, setting and theme of the Adventure Path. I probably wouldn't buy one that was set specifically in a third party publisher's setting because I play in Golarion settings. However, if it was an adventure path that could be adapted to any setting ala the ongoing Legendary Planet kickstarter, then I would be much more inclined to support it.After seeing this twice (port over to Golorian), I find it odd. The whole concept of 3PP is that they exist without being able to name or use Golorian "fluff." Any adventure can be made to fit a setting with a little work from personal experiences.
What exactly does it mean to be "easily" adapted?
Not use 3PP classes regularly?
Not use 3PP locations for the AP?
Not use religion as a basis, or even part of the plot, for the campaign?
To me that limits what the AP can be about way too much and guts the AP of any real identify it could have. Having one of a 3PP class the whole AP makes it seem like they are unique or one off. And pretty much makes it clone of any other adventure you can buy that uses the OGL. Having the 3PP making the AP, creating organizations that allow you to get a feel for what the class(es) are supposed to be like, is pretty much what you would want from them no?
I'm not asking this to be a jerk, and I'm sure the OP would probably like to know the answer too. It just seems to me, that trying it to make the AP capable of fitting Golorian, defeats the purpose of having 3PP collaboration in making it and imposes undue constraints on the creativity that the 3PP has to make the product unique.
Make of that statement what you will.
Golorian to me is "generic fantasy" while most 3PP is "niche fantasy". Do people really want more generic fantasy, or are they looking for something a little different and unique that they can add to their home game?
I think that perception is a reflection of your taste rather than page count (depending on what "niche fantasy" means, of course). My impression is that most 3PP products are "generic fantasy" - a product of my tastes, no doubt.
To address your question, I think what you consider "generic" sells better (ie more people want it). So I think the answer is probably "Yes - people do want more".
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I think there is a slight disconnect between the concept of "authors who have written for 3PPs" and "3PPs as contributing publishers".
In the former case there really is no "joint 3PP AP", just disparate authors; unless the developer tasks are spread amongst the 3PP's which I would not advise, and which has been criticised above - each 3PP necessarily has a different take on what balance and appropriate challenges are. A unified project needs to have a unified approach and unified vision.
So in the latter case, I would imagine 3PPs are contributing developed concepts, classes, campaign settings etc to an overall project overseen by a developer - there would still be freelancers, but they would be directed by the 3PPs to fulfill the overall developer's vision.
Exactly, Mr. Geddes.
My point is not that 3pp can't produce balanced material. It is that each publisher has a different sense of what is "balanced", of tone, of style; and an AP in which each publisher contributes one adventure (as a hypothetical model) would mean that the sense of balance, tone, and style would vary from volume to volume. It would feel less like an AP and more like a series of individual modules strung together. And, yes, even if Paizo is one of the participants, that remains the case.
Just to jump in on this. I think as long as there is a cohesive aesthetic and design guidelines any designer worth their salt can overcome any sort of personal quirks and design within established guidelines. Besides- the producer has the final say in these sort of matters and, if they have a strong enough hand, has the final say in everything.
The names won't be a contributing factor for me. If I like the idea of the product, it doesn't matter who is doing it. Give me a good idea of what you're going for with this product. If I like the idea, I'll back it. If not, then sorry, but no.
I don't buy Paizo's APs either. Not that they aren't good, but that the AP just didn't sing to me. FWIW I do homebrew quite a bit of setting and campaign material.
It would need someone to be in overall charge
An interesting theme for the AP
Lots of stuff for the PCs to do and not just background, filler and fluff the players never learn about
Sounds a worthy ambition. I would contribute
A would not only join a 3pp AP Kickstarter, I would look very forward to it.
Of course there are risks, but I also see the chances. There's lots of good and great 3pp material on the market, and even if a company occasionally does a subpar product they usually learn out of this. That's the main reason why I write reviews…
So for a joined 3pp AP a coordinating company should exist and it should check what was well received on the market (Sales, reviews, Endzeitgeist's seal of approval…) and check back with the authors who wrote that supplements. So, for example, if company X has success with material regarding jungle spells they should be the leading company for this jungle-part and provide the adventure with villains using spells out of this supplement. The original author will best know what spell-combinations he had in mind, playtested, whatever. She can write a 'During Combat' part of the villain or the whole villain and the company can showcase a bit of their product(s) and if the buyers want more of this, the reference to it is included (' You liked what BBEG did? There is more of this in our successful product '333 awesome spells for jungle adventures'. You can order it here'). Another company may have a successful jungle dwelling race which can be included, and maybe its a spellcaster race which can also use the aformentioned jungle spells. A third company provides favorite hazards to the pool and so on. All those great ideas and ready parts are then send to a good author. She should be able to write something out of all those already proven components easily. If the adventure is droppable into Golarion, the better. In this example the Mwangi expanse should be big enough. The next part of the Adventure Path could be on the Shadow Plane, then repeat the procedure with another leading company under the supervision of the coordinating company (to assure there are no breaks or gaps between the parts or toward the main plot).
Of course you also need a good idea for the whole adventure path, maybe a chase of some kind would be least problematic with so many heads involved. Just please stay away from endless dungeon crawls. I think an AP where you really could use riding feats and skills could be a good general concept. And I'm not talking about small heroes only riding combat dogs or the Narrow Frame feat so those riding elephants do fit through lots of 5' hallways.
'An adventure path featuring the best 3pp material, written by great authors' looks like a fine line under the name of the adventure path, doesn't it?
Quite honestly anyone who had published more than a handful of products of any moderate length already knows at least half of what people have been posting about "requiring" in terms of how they would produce the product.
The thread wasn't about how to do it, they have a clue. It is about what you would be interested in seeing from them as a collaboration and what would get you to invest in... Not how you want them to run their business or police their own.
You guys are pushing it way off topic with all that.
Real simple question: Would you support a joint 3PP Adventure Path on Kickstarter? As for 3PP we are talking all the top people and companies? Thanks!
Yes! In fact, I am doing it now with LA, not to the various FGG offerings.
Quite honestly anyone who had published more than a handful of products of any moderate length already knows at least half of what people have been posting about "requiring" in terms of how they would produce the product.
The thread wasn't about how to do it, they have a clue. It is about what you would be interested in seeing from them as a collaboration and what would get you to invest in... Not how you want them to run their business or police their own.
You guys are pushing it way off topic with all that.
I'm a big supporter of 3PPs. So I agree they're competent, produce good stuff and generally know what they're doing.
Nonetheless, what concerns me in a collaborative effort is the coherence and the need to have a strong, overall-campaign developer. Telling them that isn't me saying "let me teach you how to do it" its me saying "here's a big part of what I'm concerned about".
I think they'd be unwise not to explicitly address some of these concerns in the way they present such an endeavour and there haven't been that many collaborations of such complexity. It raises different issues for me as a prospective backer and keeping silent about it doesn't do them any favours
Quite honestly anyone who had published more than a handful of products of any moderate length already knows at least half of what people have been posting about "requiring" in terms of how they would produce the product.
The thread wasn't about how to do it, they have a clue. It is about what you would be interested in seeing from them as a collaboration and what would get you to invest in... Not how you want them to run their business or police their own.
You guys are pushing it way off topic with all that.
It isn't pushing at all. It is being incredibly helpful. I've been in sales for the last 15 years. I can tell you without question that a customer will tell you yes even if they are unsure. Particularly about a future sale that won't take money from their pocket today. (It's easy to commit tomorrow's money to an idea, it is much more difficult to spend the cash in your wallet on an unknown product.) Having potential customers disclose potential objections regardless of their nature is vital in this process. Objections which are known can be overcome. Unknown objections lead to sitting in your office, twiddling your thumbs, wondering where everyone who told you yes is with their money.
LMP asked for feedback and all of it is precisely on-topic.
Personally, I am glad for any and all feedback I get on this thread. It is important to hear and learn about everyone's issues that have with and AP of this size and ambitions.
In my case, there are a few things that would be required to get my money.
1) Credibility. The more of it the people involved have, the better. For example, if we've got 6-7 Paizo-published AP writers working on a path, and someone else who's previously directed a path in charge of the whole thing, that's a lot of credibility. If it's one young guy who's never written so much as a module before, but "really really" thinks we'd like his idea, I'm probably not going to back it.
2) Concept. The mere fact that an adventure is coming from a collaboration of 3PPs is not going to get me to back it. It needs to have a solid concept - an idea that makes me say "I want to play this, and more than I want to play something else coming out around that time".
3) Art! Not as important as the others, but there's some REALLY nice artwork out there. If the campaign blows past the main goals, I'd love to see some art upgrades - guys like Peter Morhbacher do some pretty phenomenal stuff, and if the budget permits it, well... imagine having that level of stuff on your front cover.
3a) This matters for the inside too. Some books have great art all-around, some have good cover art and terrible inner art... I like good fantasy art in general. XD So steps to include it are always welcomed.
4) Communication! I like it when creators are open and honest about the status of things, and something as straightforward as committing to a regular update schedule is always appreciated. Personally, I enjoy percentage-based lists that show how much of each 'thing' is done. Providing these once a month or so (maybe more often, ideally not less) can help people get a good sense for the progress of the campaign.
So... ultimately, would I support a joint 3PP campaign? The answer, of course, is "it depends". If it meets enough of my personal criteria, I probably will support it. Otherwise... *Shrugs*
Personally, I am glad for any and all feedback I get on this thread. It is important to hear and learn about everyone's issues that have with and AP of this size and ambitions.
To be fair, we're still in the dark about the anticipated size and scope of this project. All we've heard so far is it's got a bunch of bigger 3pp names.
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So... ultimately, would I support a joint 3PP campaign? The answer, of course, is "it depends". If it meets enough of my personal criteria, I probably will support it. Otherwise... *Shrugs*
To be fair, we're still in the dark about the anticipated size and scope of this project. All we've heard so far is it's got a bunch of bigger 3pp names.
OK since you all have given such great feedback, here is the concept pitch for this 3PP AP, which we are calling Crisis of the World Eater.
(Begin marketing pitch mode)
A god like creature called the World Eater has been consuming worlds after worlds. The World Eater simply devours all life and energy from each and every thing on each and every world it visits. Nothing survives the World Eater and it leaves a world a carcass where nothing again can live on it.The World Eater has been annihilating worlds for over a millennium, with many attempting to stop the advancement. No matter how powerful, no matter how advanced each and every world that stood again the World Eater failed. Nothing has slowed or prevented the consumption of world after world.
Now the World Eater has sent it's executor to your world to evaluate it for it consumption. And like so many worlds before, if the World Eater succeeds, it will leave your world a dead husk. What will you do to stop the World Eater when so many before couldn't? Where will you gain allies for the impossible task? Where will you be taken in finding ways to stop the World Eater? What will you sacrifice to defeat the Wold Eater?
(End marketing pitch mode)
Basically it is Crisis on Infinite Earth PLUS Ultimate Galactuc Trilogy equals Crisis of the World Eater. So if those series interest you, then you should like the idea of this AP concept.
So the Crystalline Entity teamed up with ID4 aliens?
Sounds good.
I think that sounds very interesting.
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So... ultimately, would I support a joint 3PP campaign? The answer, of course, is "it depends". If it meets enough of my personal criteria, I probably will support it. Otherwise... *Shrugs*To be fair, we're still in the dark about the anticipated size and scope of this project. All we've heard so far is it's got a bunch of bigger 3pp names.OK since you all have given such great feedback, here is the concept pitch for this 3PP AP, which we are calling Crisis of the World Eater.
(Begin marketing pitch mode)
A god like creature called the World Eater has been consuming worlds after worlds. The World Eater simply devours all life and energy from each and every thing on each and every world it visits. Nothing survives the World Eater and it leaves a world a carcass where nothing again can live on it.The World Eater has been annihilating worlds for over a millennium, with many attempting to stop the advancement. No matter how powerful, no matter how advanced each and every world that stood again the World Eater failed. Nothing has slowed or prevented the consumption of world after world.
Now the World Eater has sent it's executor to your world to evaluate it for it consumption. And like so many worlds before, if the World Eater succeeds, it will leave your world a dead husk. What will you do to stop the World Eater when so many before couldn't? Where will you gain allies for the impossible task? Where will you be taken in finding ways to stop the World Eater? What will you sacrifice to defeat the Wold Eater?
(End marketing pitch mode)
Basically it is Crisis on Infinite Earth PLUS Ultimate Galactuc Trilogy equals Crisis of the World Eater. So if those series interest you, then you should like the idea of this AP concept.
So dimension hopping from NeoExodus, to Thunderscape, to Kaidan, to Midgard, to Cerulean Seas, to Necropunk type of stuff? Could probably be made with all NPCs and sample characters from several 3pp classes and not a single Paizo PF class too.
Yes. That would be awesome. You should have started with that, everybody who supports 3pp will probably support that, it's awesome. It also shows a little from different publishers so you can get a taste of everything, show a highlight from each world and why they would be fun to play, just enough rules on the stat blocks to be playable while making you want to go and buy the class and see what else it can do, it would be great publicity for all involved.I think I just had a nerdgasm.
While I'm interested in this AP, I have one problem with supporting a kickstarter of a such a product, and that's money. I cannot afford the Legendary Planet as a kickstarter and I still didn't manage to get one from Frog God Games. I understand the necessity of running a kickstarter as opposed to just publishing it, but rarely I can cough up the sum required at once (I admit, international shipping is very much a problem for me), like I managed for Kobold's Southlands, or AAW's Snow White. It doesn't mean I won't pick it up when it's eventually published, but many kickstarters come at a wrong time (for instance I had to back out of Barakus 'cause I crashed my car).
Anyway, good luck with this.
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While I'm interested in this AP, I have one problem with supporting a kickstarter of a such a product, and that's money. I cannot afford the Legendary Planet as a kickstarter and I still didn't manage to get one from Frog God Games. I understand the necessity of running a kickstarter as opposed to just publishing it, but rarely I can cough up the sum required at once (I admit, international shipping is very much a problem for me), like I managed for Kobold's Southlands, or AAW's Snow White. It doesn't mean I won't pick it up when it's eventually published, but many kickstarters come at a wrong time (for instance I had to back out of Barakus 'cause I crashed my car).
Funny you should say that, the plan for pricing was going to be $10 gets you ALL the PDFs from the series (minimum of 2 main adventures and 2 side trek) and all the threshold goals in PDF. The majority of the threshold goals will be side trek adventures from 3PP. We based doing this on the Fate Core Kickstarter. The reason being is that we wanted people to get more than what you would reasonably expect. Plus who could say to a $10 kickstarter?
So dimension hopping from NeoExodus, to Thunderscape, to Kaidan, to Midgard, to Cerulean Seas, to Necropunk type of stuff? Could probably be made with all NPCs and sample characters from several 3pp classes and not a single Paizo PF class too.
Yes this is exactly what we want to do.
Yes. That would be awesome. You should have started with that, everybody who supports 3pp will probably support that, it's awesome. It also shows a little from different publishers so you can get a taste of everything, show a highlight from each world and why they would be fun to play, just enough rules on the stat blocks to be playable while making you want to go and buy the class and see what else it can do, it would be great publicity for all involved.
Talk about cross promotion.
I think I just had a nerdgasm.
You're welcome.
Is the plan for it to use mythic rules? (It sounds mythic in scope, to me).
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Is the plan for it to use mythic rules? (It sounds mythic in scope, to me).
We plan to use ALL the rules from all the setting / campaigns that make them unique and interesting. So you can expect to see BOTH psychic magic and psionics. I want us to be inclusive for 3PP.
Funny you should say that, the plan for pricing was going to be $10 gets you ALL the PDFs from the series (minimum of 2 main adventures and 2 side trek) and all the threshold goals in PDF. The majority of the threshold goals will be side trek adventures from 3PP. We based doing this on the Fate Core Kickstarter. The reason being is that we wanted people to get more than what you would reasonably expect. Plus who could say to a $10 kickstarter?
Well, if you can make it work like that, I'm in for 10$.
So dimension hopping from NeoExodus, to Thunderscape, to Kaidan, to Midgard, to Cerulean Seas, to Necropunk type of stuff? Could probably be made with all NPCs and sample characters from several 3pp classes and not a single Paizo PF class too.
Really, really liking this idea.
Is the plan for it to use mythic rules? (It sounds mythic in scope, to me).We plan to use ALL the rules from all the setting / campaigns that make them unique and interesting. So you can expect to see BOTH psychic magic and psionics. I want us to be inclusive for 3PP.
I was wondering about mythic, rather than psychic (though I'm glad you don't feel the need to choose between psychic and psionic).
I was wondering about mythic, rather than psychic (though I'm glad you don't feel the need to choose between psychic and psionic).
Yes we will will be doing some mythic in the adventures.
It sounds like the challenge for me in using such a product is having all of the necessary rules and world info available. I don't have a particularly broad 3pp library at this point - it's pretty deep with a handful of publishers, but I don't even recognize some of the worlds that were mentioned above.
That would not stop me from backing the kickstarter; that would turn on other factors better expressed earlier in this thread. It would just affect whether I would get anything out of it in the end and might affect potential future customers' interest in the AP - all depending on how that information - and how much of it - was presented in the AP directly.
Just thinking an AP that says, "Best experienced if you have the following fifty books available to you," might be harder to sell. Nothing that could not be addressed during the design of the AP, of course. Like: We provide everything you need, but also include references to rulebooks that have more detail if you wish to delve further. The old Dungeon magazine made an effort to do that when they were teasing you to pick up new rules - which is ultimately what this is all about, right? Drum up interest in 3pp products?
It sounds like the challenge for me in using such a product is having all of the necessary rules and world info available. I don't have a particularly broad 3pp library at this point - it's pretty deep with a handful of publishers, but I don't even recognize some of the worlds that were mentioned above.
This AP setup is based off of new adventure line system we created. Unlike an Adventure path, which contains a number of adventures the PCs must play in order, this AP contains two adventures, which must be played in a specific order (alpha, and then omega) and a number of side quests, which may be played in any order, so long as they are played after adventure alpha, and before adventure omega. So you can pick and choose what side trek (which the 3PP will be focused on) in your home campaign.
That would not stop me from backing the kickstarter; that would turn on other factors better expressed earlier in this thread. It would just affect whether I would get anything out of it in the end and might affect potential future customers' interest in the AP - all depending on how that information - and how much of it - was presented in the AP directly.
That is reasonable.
Just thinking an AP that says, "Best experienced if you have the following fifty books available to you," might be harder to sell. Nothing that could not be addressed during the design of the AP, of course. Like: We provide everything you need, but also include references to rulebooks that have more detail if you wish to delve further. The old Dungeon magazine made an effort to do that when they were teasing you to pick up new rules - which is ultimately what this is all about, right? Drum up interest in 3pp products?
The main Alpha and omega adventures will focused on the main core rulebook, while the side treks might trail into specific game setting campaign worlds so there might be something extra needed. But for anything like that we will inform those playing those side treks.
OK, my level of "how intrigued am I" has been raised quite a bit. Thanks for the reply.
I'm not going to lie, I would be all over that. Especially if powerset/theme bleed over happens. I know Cerulean Seas has psionics, and if some Kaiden characters teamed up with the Oriental analogs from Cerulean Seas, while some Akashic types got in on the action...
I have backed kickstarters from people I did not know and not supported people I think highly of. Now all things being equal known people will get my support, but the intention of the product and its presentation on kickstarter matter more to me than who is making it.
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OK, my level of "how intrigued am I" has been raised quite a bit. Thanks for the reply.
Wait until you see who is involved and what we are planning. We want this to feel familiar in some points and very different almost alien in other points.
I'm not going to lie, I would be all over that. Especially if powerset/theme bleed over happens. I know Cerulean Seas has psionics, and if some Kaiden characters teamed up with the Oriental analogs from Cerulean Seas, while some Akashic types got in on the action...
And that is what we want. A complete mixing of all kinds of 3PP things but still at the core of it being a Pathfinder adventure.
How similar will the side trek quests be to what the Legendary Planet Adventure Path is doing?
First off, This AP side treks are much shorter than the traditional adventure length (our side treks will be 6 to 8 page in length compared to a 32 page full adventure.).Secondly, you can play the side treks in ANY order. You can also play all the side treks, some of the side treks, or none of them at all. It is completely up to you. Don't like a certain campaign setting or world in this AP, then don't play their side trek. Everything is up to you.
The only thing that would worry me is this: If I want to play a certain side trek, would I have to purchase outside material to be able to play it?
If the minimum material *required* to play the side trek was contained in the AP or at least available in one of the SRD's, I could then use the side trek as a good trial run to see if I'd want to then purchase more materials from that particular publisher.
If I am going to end up spending $50-100 on an AP (guessing based on price of current Paizo APs), I don't want to have to spend another $50-100 just to be able to play all the content I've already paid for.
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It's an intriguing concept for an AP and one that hasn't been tried before.
I like the idea that it will have an epic scale - it helps to highlight that it isn't just a "threat of the week" storyline. It feels like you really want to crank the dial up to 11.
There are a couple of obvious dangers. The first is that there won't be enough space to show off the unique features of each campaign setting. Depending upon how big this adventure Path will be, publishers may not have enough space to let their creations "breathe" properly. The second is that tastes vary and some players may *gasp* find some publisher's settings more aligned to their own personal tastes than others. I don't know that there's much that you can do about this issue - it's just human nature. And the third risk is an issue that plagues many of the big comic crossover events - there are simply so many moving parts that it becomes hard for people who aren't already familiar with the existing source material to keep track of what is going on and how it should be placed in a meaningful context.
On the other hand, this has the potential to set up a coherent shared multiverse paving the way for occasional future crossovers. And that is a very good thing - I loved the idea back in the AD&D 2E era that all of the campaign worlds published in that period existed in a single multiverse.
Also, It would be fantastic if you could do this in a way that encourages GMs who have their own established homebrew campaign settings to incorporate them into the shared multiverse. If done right, this would increase the value of 3PP material to those GMs. Although they might spend most of their time own home turf, an occasional jaunt to another setting might be good thing to freshen up their game.
The only thing that would worry me is this: If I want to play a certain side trek, would I have to purchase outside material to be able to play it?
At least on the AP side we are trying to keep the entry level as low as $10 so cost might not be an issue on that side.
If the minimum material *required* to play the side trek was contained in the AP or at least available in one of the SRD's, I could then use the side trek as a good trial run to see if I'd want to then purchase more materials from that particular publisher.
If I am going to end up spending $50-100 on an AP (guessing based on price of current Paizo APs), I don't want to have to spend another $50-100 just to be able to play all the content I've already paid for.
Since the side trek will be handled by the 3PP specifically I am sure some will have "custom" material in it. We are planning is if there is custom material that it's rules will be included in the side trek, in a stripped down format at least.
What is the level range on this?
If the level range is large, I am curious how the challenge level in the sidetreks will be scaled so that they can be played in any order.
We have not finalized that due to [REDACTED] but we are looking at the Alpha adventure to run most likely 8th to 11th and the Omega adventure to run 14th to 17th. But none of this is solid it stone because of [REDACTED].
What exactly does it mean to be "easily" adapted?Not use 3PP classes regularly?
Not use 3PP locations for the AP?
Not use religion as a basis, or even part of the plot, for the campaign?
To me that limits what the AP can be about way too much and guts the AP of any real identify it could have. Having one of a 3PP class the whole AP makes it seem like they are unique or one off. And pretty much makes it clone of any other adventure you can buy that uses the OGL. Having the 3PP making the AP, creating organizations that allow you to get a feel for what the class(es) are supposed to be like, is pretty much what you would want from them no?
I'm not asking this to be a jerk, and I'm sure the OP would probably like to know the answer too. It just seems to me, that trying it to make the AP capable of fitting Golorian, defeats the purpose of having 3PP collaboration in making it and imposes undue constraints on the creativity that the 3PP has to make the product unique.
Well maybe not easily adaptable, because yes I want to see 3pp classes and locations. Religions not so much.
It's about the fluff and about being able to -if you want to - add it to Golarion somehow/somewhere/somewhen.
Way of the Wicked was named as an example by me, which featured a new religion but could with some creativity be fit into Golarion as a sort of prequel to cheliax as it is now.
For me the best would be if it does add to one of the interesting very niche Golarion parts that will most likely not see much official development.