To the point, one of Azathoth's titles is the daemon sultan. While granted, it is a hold over from the works that spawned the blind idiot god along with so many other wondrous entities, Pathfinder is a system in which daemons are a very real thing. So, there in lies a question. Is there anything we could speculate from this title? Is there an 'in universe' explanation as to how it was applied to this being that, as far as I know, has absolutely no association with daemons?
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The title is used often in HP lovecraft's works and likely has no association with the Daemons of pathfinder lore. I could find nothing that ties the two together, although as a caveat I don't have access to a lot of the direct source material.
The title is used often in HP lovecraft's works and likely has no association with the Daemons of pathfinder lore. I could find nothing that ties the two together, although as a caveat I don't have access to a lot of the direct source material.
Within Lovecraft's works, as far as I know there is no association, but even as a hold over, I'm sure at least a great deal of speculation could be had over it. I've my doubts a cultist one day simply decided the name sounded cool and so it stuck as a title for Azathoth. Would be nice if in some book somewhere, or a post even, this is addressed. But, since I know of no such thing, there is room to work with. Way I figure, it could be a misinterpretation, it could allude to what fate may befall those in his service or something to that effect (what are the petitioners to the great old ones and outer gods like anyways?), or there actually could be an obscure but real association.
Hate posting after myself, with nothing in between, but a piece of information that could serve to be relevant for speculation has come to my attention. In BotD: horsemen of the apocolypse, a notion regarding Charon came to my attention. Speculation that perhaps he predates the creation of humanoid life and he might actually "be something more alien that lurks below the waters of the Styx." Not to mention "mysterious tentacles that writhe up from the depths" in his domain. It isn't much, but I think it usable.
I think that Lovecraft's prose from a hundred years ago is colliding with modern game terms that Lovecraft himself would have had no concept of.
Lovecraft himself used the title "daemon-sultan" for Azathoth. Lovecraft liked to use archaic spellings of words (e.g. "gaol" for "jail"), and I believe he used the archaic "daemon" spelling for "demon". I would imagine that Lovecraft used the word simply to mean "malevolent supernatural thing," rather than anything specific from real-world mythology. And "Daemon-Sultan" does sound pretty creepy and pretty cool!
As for why the title used in PFRPG? I would imagine that the main reason would be continuity with Lovecraft's actual words. In-game, a god's title is what its worshipers call the entity. In the case of Azathoth, he cares not for his followers... and may not be aware of them. Perhaps there is some kind of connection between the daemons and the Primal Chaos... and perhaps that the worshipers call Azathoth the "Daemon-Sultan" because it sounds cool!
Looking for more evidence, the only place I can find where the title is used in a Pathfinder book is in the half-column write-up of Azathoth on page 64 of Pathfinder #46: Wake of the Watcher, which was written five years ago. In Inner Sea Gods, (released five years alter) Azathoth's only title is "The Primal Chaos."
If I were to guess, I'd pose that the title of 'Daemon-Sultan' got fire-cancer and will not be mentioned again.
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Lovecraft himself used the title "daemon-sultan" for Azathoth. Lovecraft liked to use archaic spellings of words (e.g. "gaol" for "jail"), and I believe he used the archaic "daemon" spelling for "demon".
I should probably point out -- actually, I probably shouldn't, but will anyway -- that "daemon" is NOT an archaic spelling of "demon." A "daemon," in Greek mythology, is a nature spirit, not necessarily malevolent, and often a personal benevolent spirit. (The divine inspiration of Socrates was attributed by Plato to a daemon, in the same way that we talk about a writer's "genius," and in fact, those two words are very close in meaning.) A daemon closer to a guardian angel than a (Christian) demon.
Of course, most of Lovecraft's readers weren't classicists and they would have looked at the word "daemon" and read it as "demon-with-a-cool-spelling," which seems to be how the D&D authors read it as well.
I should probably point out -- actually, I probably shouldn't, but will anyway -- that "daemon" is NOT an archaic spelling of "demon." A "daemon," in Greek mythology, is a nature spirit, not necessarily malevolent, and often a personal benevolent spirit. (The divine inspiration of Socrates was attributed by Plato to a daemon, in the same way that we talk about a writer's "genius," and in fact, those two words are very close in meaning.) A daemon closer to a guardian angel than a (Christian) demon.
Lovecraft himself used the title "daemon-sultan" for Azathoth. Lovecraft liked to use archaic spellings of words (e.g. "gaol" for "jail"), and I believe he used the archaic "daemon" spelling for "demon".
Yeah, except later Christians then took the Greek term daemon and used it to refer to evil spirits and from there it evolved to simplified demon making "daemon" indeed an archaic spelling of "demon".
If I may propose a notion i've considered and shared elsewhere, then I shall simply let this discussion die. If nothing else, then there could at least be this:
Daemons came into being after the River of Souls overflowed due to some horrible cataclysms occurring on the material plane, the first mass deaths of mortal life. The souls washed up, the first daemon came into being, and the rest of daemon kind came in time. Perhaps Azathoth is responsible for the deaths, for he is a being of destruction and the tiniest ripple caused by his thrashings can lay entire planets to waste.
And, with that I'll just let this be.
Creative Director
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Azathoth is the "Daemon Sultan" because Lovecraft chose an archaic and unusual version of the word "demon" for its exotic flair. He also did so close to a century ago, and about 75 years before D&D/Gygax decided to make daemons into their own thing.
We retained it in Pathfinder because that's the way it's always been, and while I can now see how that might cause confusion... it's so ingrained in my mind that I never even noticed that would or could be confusing.
Not only does Azathoth have nothing to do with daemons, it really doesn't have much of anything to do with the outer planes at all, let alone Abaddon.
Azathoth is the "Daemon Sultan" because Lovecraft chose an archaic and unusual version of the word "demon" for its exotic flair. He also did so close to a century ago, and about 75 years before D&D/Gygax decided to make daemons into their own thing.
We retained it in Pathfinder because that's the way it's always been, and while I can now see how that might cause confusion... it's so ingrained in my mind that I never even noticed that would or could be confusing.
Not only does Azathoth have nothing to do with daemons, it really doesn't have much of anything to do with the outer planes at all, let alone Abaddon.
Well, that really just settles the whole matter entirely, now doesn't it? Thanks for commenting.
I do rather love what the system has done with all things lovecraft, along with many of the aspects portrayed for the planes beyond the material. I'd throw out questions of all sorts now, one of which mused in the fourth post briefly, but thats for another time and place. For now, I think it is time to let this discussion sink.
For Germans it's even more confusing since Daemon = Dämon which means demon.
What are daemons called in the German PF/D&D anyways? Shows I only read this stuff in English...
As for the sultan part: probably because Alhazred was middle eastern.
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Azathoth is the "Daemon Sultan" because Lovecraft chose an archaic and unusual version of the word "demon" for its exotic flair. He also did so close to a century ago, and about 75 years before D&D/Gygax decided to make daemons into their own thing.
We retained it in Pathfinder because that's the way it's always been, and while I can now see how that might cause confusion... it's so ingrained in my mind that I never even noticed that would or could be confusing.
Not only does Azathoth have nothing to do with daemons, it really doesn't have much of anything to do with the outer planes at all, let alone Abaddon.
or perhaps that's what the blind idiot god wants us to think!
seriously though, some of the nastier daemons would fit in pretty well as servants of Azathoth - he might not be a daemon himself, but there's no reason why some of them might not consider him their Sultan...
there's also the possibility that the term was given as a result of a miscommunication - a cabal worshipping him led by a summoner who routinely brought forth, or consulted Daemons could easily have been the genesis for this title, bestowed by a cult-smashing inquisitor who didn't have all the facts.