But saying your weapon deafens you when you use it is just a punch in the face.
What's more, it exacerbates the problem rather than fixing it. The character, being deaf, can't easily participate in conversations and so on -- so the only thing he can do is shoot stuff. So he'll do that more, not less, because you've cut off a number of his other options.
Why not address how OP the Gunslinger is by putting him in situations where his gun is not going to serve well?
Social interactions where weapons are not allowed(such as vising nobles or other secure areas).
Encounters in areas where there is not a lot of range or line of sight, such as caves, dungeons with twisting maze-like corridors, or fogs/mists/darkness. Heavily forested land with lots of trees and undergrowth(think Viet Nam). Under, or in, water! Even crowded areas with lots of people, such as a busy marketplace or other social gathering like parties would work. Don't want to hit innocent bystanders.
Invisible enemies. Ninja NPC are the worst since they keep attacking then vanishing.
Grappling NPCs/monsters. A lot of enemies have Grab as a free action. Throw some Dire Tigers at him with a pounce routine and see how well he does.
Spells like Mirror Image, Entropic Shield, Displacement, Blur, and Blink work well when combined with these and DR.
Hordes of attacking creatures. Make him choose between taking down one enemy at a time, or splitting his fire. Ever throw a pile of kobolds that use teamwork feats at the party? It's hilarious! How about a zombie horde or a pack of dire wolves with improved trip.
Enemies with really high touch AC, such as monks that have been buffed with deflection, Haste, and WIS/DEX effects. Monks might also have the Deflect Arrows feat, which, unless I'm reading it wrong or don't understand Firearms, would stop at least one bullet.
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Now start combining those things.
A pack of angry kobold monks with teamwork and grapple feats. Or a pack of regular kobolds with a few sorcerers buffing them. Or both!
A pack of dire wolves that some wizard has mixed in with illusionary versions. Make him waste his fire on targets that don't exist!
A mixed NPC party with any of the above, all buffed by spells and effects.
Throw any of these at the party in magical darkness, or fog clouds(either natural or magical), or in a cave, or a crowded marketplace.
Eventually any PC party is going to get so powerful that you really have to start pulling out all the stops. All pathfinder characters eventually get out of control to where you need to start custom building enemies to counter them and exploit their weaknesses. This is easily explained. All manner of Wizards, dragons, and clerics will start scrying them from afar. Thieves guilds and kings will start spying on them because they want the technology of the firearm, or worry about the impact the party will have on their territory. Rival or enemy adventuring groups(they're not ALL good after all) will track their movements.
Changing the rules of firearms is definitely not the only way to go about making things interesting for an OP character.
Changing the rules of firearms is definitely not the only way to go about making things interesting for an OP character.
But the problem lies with firearm rules. Because it relies on a broken game mechanic. This has been argued to death in this thread.
So you can sit down with the player and talk about changing the rules or his choice of character, or you can let him have his fun and throw creative encounters at the party and keep playing.
I didn't say that firearms weren't extra powerful or broken, I only offered an alternative way to address it.
Normally I like the firearm rules as they are but since they're all over the place in this one dungeonpunk setting I'm trying to run I think I'm going to use a third party ruling and take away misfire and touch attacks and give them dex to damage naturally. Thoughts?
Normally I like the firearm rules as they are but since they're all over the place in this one dungeonpunk setting I'm trying to run I think I'm going to use a third party ruling and take away misfire and touch attacks and give them dex to damage naturally. Thoughts?
Okay, I feel bad to have constantly brought this up in this discussion, but...
Have you looked at my firearm houserules? That's precisely what I've done there, though I did keep some vestiges of the old firearm rules simply as to not completely invalidate any new published content. I am considering writing a "firearms unchained" book that introduces firearm rules that completely divorce from Ultimate Combat and reworks the gunslinger and numerous archetypes from the ground up.
EDIT: Oh wait, I think I did show these to you before. Now I feel even worse!
Normally I like the firearm rules as they are but since they're all over the place in this one dungeonpunk setting I'm trying to run I think I'm going to use a third party ruling and take away misfire and touch attacks and give them dex to damage naturally. Thoughts?Okay, I feel bad to have constantly brought this up in this discussion, but...
Have you looked at my firearm houserules? That's precisely what I've done there, though I did keep some vestiges of the old firearm rules simply as to not completely invalidate any new published content. I am considering writing a "firearms unchained" book that introduces firearm rules that completely divorce from Ultimate Combat and reworks the gunslinger and numerous archetypes from the ground up.
EDIT: Oh wait, I think I did show these to you before. Now I feel even worse!
I saw it before and I think I commented about it, but my first encounter with 'no misfire or touch attacks + dex to damage' was in a third party book called Neurospasta so that's whats in my mind when I thought to do that for the setting I'm thinking about. Glad that you wrote down rewrites to the misfire relevant deeds and Gun Training so I didn't have to do it though.
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If you're going to introduce house rules intended solely to nerf a particular class, the time to do so is before the characters are rolled up. It's an unbelievable dick move to say to the wizard, mid-game, "Oh, by the way, you now take damage equal to 1d6 + 1d6/spell level every time you cast an enchantment spell, and casting illusions causes you to go insane." By the same token, introducing the recommended rules above, mid-game, will cause a lot of players to seriously think twice about staying with that DM -- who knows what's next?House rule that he can aim OR rapid shot, since he would probably be half blind and deaf if he actually did that.
And guns are LOUD. Rapidly firing a revolver while using deadly aim should be VERY bad for your ears. You probably go deaf in a few days of action.
What I am talking about isn't the gunslinger getting nerfed with his weapon, I'm talking about moderation. From my standing, deadly aim means taking your time, using the sights and putting holes in just the right place to be effective. Rapid fire is rapid fire, fanning the hammer. The 2 just don't mix right. Aiming down the sight and rapid firing a revolver at the same time would be terrible for the eyes and ears over a prolonged period of time. Or you would poke your aiming eye out with the hammer. It's just me saying what I would do. Just say no to that combination. Aside from that, you do whatever you want in your games, because I'm just saying that I would do things in my games. If I was playing a gunslinger, I would place moderation first, and not kill everything before the party had the chance to participate.
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And I do agree with the Dex to damage and less of the direct touch Attacks. I can justify touch when using deadly aim (since you are aiming for weak spots) but only when using deadly aim. And again, no clustered shots plus deadly aim at the same time. As for catastrophic misfires, not unless you got 3+crit fails in a row. That's 1 then 1 then 1 on one roll. At that point it's clear the gods are just against you. I understand their place with the old firearms but they shouldn't just kill you every time you use the gun. First a misfire, then a jam, and then an explosion, any amount of time between the first misfire and the 3rd where a regular fail occurs is just a miss and the guns is clear for use.
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In a gun heavy setting, I see everyone having a little bit of gunslinger in them. The gunslinger is still the best at what he does, but the others can be just as good in their own ways. Rogues making sneak attack shots and stabs, witches and other casters combining their skill with firearms with their arcane and divine talents. Alchemists throwing bombs, chugging mutagens, and mixing infusions to support their firearm, or making specialised guns of doom. You get the idea. Everyone can use a gun well, but the gunslinger still can be good at what he does.
A wildwest D&D would be kind of cool with magitech trains and wizards carrying guns.
I saw it before and I think I commented about it, but my first encounter with 'no misfire or touch attacks + dex to damage' was in a third party book called Neurospasta so that's whats in my mind when I thought to do that for the setting I'm thinking about. Glad that you wrote down rewrites to the misfire relevant deeds and Gun Training so I didn't have to do it though.
Neuropasta? I might look into it.
A wildwest D&D would be kind of cool with magitech trains and wizards carrying guns.I saw it before and I think I commented about it, but my first encounter with 'no misfire or touch attacks + dex to damage' was in a third party book called Neurospasta so that's whats in my mind when I thought to do that for the setting I'm thinking about. Glad that you wrote down rewrites to the misfire relevant deeds and Gun Training so I didn't have to do it though.Neuropasta? I might look into it.
Just to warn you, it is cyberpunk. You can find it here but unless you want to take a look at the gun rules there's a lot more book to come with it so if cyberpunk isn't your cup of tea I can describe what you want to know when I get home. (Even if it's your cup of tea this is one of 5 books that facilitate about the same thing not including scatterings of small books so I wouldn't feel right recommending it unless I know what you'd like.)
Advanced firearms on their aren't that much better.They're a big deal. Using a true revolver instead of a flintlock means that you actually have the Wild West Shooter, and you're not using octupus hands, funky interpretations of spells, reload mechanics, illegal interpretations of weapon cords, ad nauseum to get out multiple shots.
I concur. But to make a gunslinger even worth the effort to play, you really need the revolver which isn't really all that hightech. I'm surprised that they didn't put in a rifle that is a revolver. Being able to only really shoot once without using some janky combinations makes the whole class not worth it.
Just an opinion, not arguing rules or anything...
Speaking of which... where is the slide style handgun it shows that elf using on page 242 of the book? THAT would be broken but still kind of fun.
If you look, it's pretty much a modern handgun. The mage hand is reloading a magazine into the bottom of the one in it's left hand.
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Outside of directly adding more barrels to the weapon. Even then, the most a flintlock handgun had was the ducks foot(a four barreled pistol) and that wasn't the most reliable gun in the world. There is the hackbut as well, but that needed a stand to be any amount of accurate. For the most part, increasing quantity of shots meant having more, then we got an idea on revolving chambers with ammunition, or direct feed from the back, and the rest is history.
If a player wants to add more barrels to his pistol, let him. But remind him that each barrel has to be manually reloaded so longer reload times. A direct feed could reduce the time to reload, but they then cannot use black powder and round bullets. They need to make their own cartridges and might even need to drastically modify their gun. Make them work to get the gun they want, have them earn it.
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Advanced firearms on their aren't that much better.They're a big deal. Using a true revolver instead of a flintlock means that you actually have the Wild West Shooter, and you're not using octupus hands, funky interpretations of spells, reload mechanics, illegal interpretations of weapon cords, ad nauseum to get out multiple shots.I concur. But to make a gunslinger even worth the effort to play, you really need the revolver which isn't really all that hightech. I'm surprised that they didn't put in a rifle that is a revolver. Being able to only really shoot once without using some janky combinations makes the whole class not worth it.
Just an opinion, not arguing rules or anything...
Speaking of which... where is the slide style handgun it shows that elf using on page 242 of the book? THAT would be broken but still kind of fun.
If you look, it's pretty much a modern handgun. The mage hand is reloading a magazine into the bottom of the one in it's left hand.
which book?
Speaking of which... where is the slide style handgun it shows that elf using on page 242 of the book?
Slightly off-topic, but I think a lot fewer people would have issues with the gunslinger reload mechanics if the firearms were always depicted as "fantastical" rather than beat-up flintlock knockoffs. If you can't directly translate the weapon to a real-life counterpart you don't have a baseline for how you expect it to handle.
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Speaking of which... where is the slide style handgun it shows that elf using on page 242 of the book?Slightly off-topic, but I think a lot fewer people would have issues with the gunslinger reload mechanics if the firearms were always depicted as "fantastical" rather than beat-up flintlock knockoffs. If you can't directly translate the weapon to a real-life counterpart you don't have a baseline for how you expect it to handle.
All gunslingers have the craft skill. They all start with their first handgun. What I wonder is why you cannot house rule being able to modify your firearm to make it less of a Flintlock knock-off. The guncrafting skill is literally part of the class. The reason they get their bullets, guns and powder cheaper is because they are buying the componants and making it quickly themselves. There should be some major expense to buying these upgrades still, since you will be doing drastic changes to the weapon, such as making entirely new mechanisms for firing the gun. And of course there does need to be limits to what you can improve the gun, such as a maximum of 4 barrels on a pistol.
If the gun is not directly feed(which prevents the use of round bullets and black powder, but allow for the use of cartridges), it reloads loading each barrel from the front, which is very slow. If you have direct feed, the cartriges reload at a much quicker rate. You see how you can balance a more useful firearm against the amount of effort it takes to improve it. And this is just an idea I have.
I think the side slide is a Mage gun, probably highly customised from a musket for the spell slingers use. The gnomes have had a hand in creating many crazy firearms so that might explain the side slide. It's an experimental weapon.
which book?
Ultimate Combat.
In fact the picture of that Elf is very steampunkish. The Pistol with the Magazine looks like it's a mix of a modern slide, clockwork, and alchemical parts.
All gunslingers have the craft skill. They all start with their first handgun. What I wonder is why you cannot house rule being able to modify your firearm to make it less of a Flintlock knock-off. The guncrafting skill is literally part of the class. The reason they get their bullets, guns and powder cheaper is because they are buying the componants and making it quickly themselves. There should be some major expense to buying these upgrades still, since you will be doing drastic changes to the weapon, such as making entirely new mechanisms for firing the gun. And of course there does need to be limits to what you can improve the gun, such as a maximum of 4 barrels on a pistol.
If the gun is not directly feed(which prevents the use of round bullets and black powder, but allow for the use of cartridges), it reloads loading each barrel from the front, which is very slow. If you have direct feed, the cartriges reload at a much quicker rate. You see how you can balance a more useful firearm against the amount of effort it takes to improve it. And this is just an idea I have.
I think the side slide is a Mage gun, probably highly customised from a musket for the spell slingers use. The gnomes have had a hand in creating many crazy firearms so that might explain the side slide. It's an experimental weapon.
Yeah, this is how I reflavored gunslingers - alchemical ammunition, rapid reload etc. are all mechanical effects that represent how the gunslinger customizes and alters his personal firearm to better fit his approach to gunplay. A low-level gunslinger musket might look like a beat-up flintlock, whereas a high level gunslinger's custom high-end firearm will look something like this.
A very memorable gunslinger character that sadly never saw play at my table (player decided to play something else) used a repeater rifle, complete with a feeder belt linked to an ammo hopper in his backpack.
This is the gunslinger Archmic is referring to. Posted it in a separate post, since I'm not quite sure if linking this image is kosher or not.
Isn't that actually a picture of the Spellslinger archtype for wizards tho?
I don't think the book specifies, unless the elf is also illustrated in the spellslinger archetype? The image is showcasing Reloading Hands which is Range: Touch, so the elf could have cast it on herself or had someone else supply it.
Edit: Nope, the spellslinger art is completely different.
Yeah, this is how I reflavored gunslingers - alchemical ammunition, rapid reload etc. are all mechanical effects that represent how the gunslinger customizes and alters his personal firearm to better fit his approach to gunplay. A low-level gunslinger musket might look like a beat-up flintlock, whereas a high level gunslinger's custom high-end firearm will look something like this.
Good thing I'm not a big fan of steampunk. I am currently building a setting intended for publication called Gothic Western for PFRPG and series of one-shot modules to support it. This is an 1871 alternate American Old West, with steampunk turned up to "3", rather than "11", so there won't be any guns that resemble anything like that. Rather seeing Springfield repeating rifles and Colt 45's will be the norm, instead with guns everywhere, that are rather inexpensive and using the advanced gun rules.
The original spellslinger artwork for the wizard archetype is shown Here.
The style of clothing and coloration is a little bit different, but it LOOKS like the same character using different equipment. I suppose I could be wrong, however.
Yeah, this is how I reflavored gunslingers - alchemical ammunition, rapid reload etc. are all mechanical effects that represent how the gunslinger customizes and alters his personal firearm to better fit his approach to gunplay. A low-level gunslinger musket might look like a beat-up flintlock, whereas a high level gunslinger's custom high-end firearm will look something like this.Good thing I'm not a big fan of steampunk. I am currently building a setting intended for publication called Gothic Western for PFRPG and series of one-shot modules to support it. This is an 1871 alternate American Old West, with steampunk turned up to "3", rather than "11", so there won't be any guns that resemble anything like that. Rather seeing Springfield repeating rifles and Colt 45's will be the norm, instead with guns everywhere, that are rather inexpensive and using the advanced gun rules.
My example was indeed steampunk-based, but it wouldn't have to be - each gunslinger is free to describe how his own weapon operates. One guy might use cogs and steam, another may have a tiny imp working the machinery inside his gun Discworld-style. :)
Using advanced firearms is a perfectly valid solution, but personally I wasn't happy with the mechanics of advanced firearms. Apart from banning double-barreled guns I find that early firearms are well balanced with other ranged options, whereas advanced firearms are a bit too good. I also suspect that advanced firearms make gunslingers a one-level class, but that may just be me.
I also suspect that advanced firearms make gunslingers a one-level class, but that may just be me.
Well I'm creating at least one new archetype for every class, and a couple of new base classes, but just about every one of the archetypes have a gunslinger capability of some kind replacing one of the early class features, many with a battered firearm and amateur gunslinger bonus feat, many with more options than that. No doubt the gunslinger will still be best with guns, but in the Gothic Western setting, he is no where the lone gunman. One of my favorites is a magus archetype called the Shootist, that gets some Matrix like abilities like forcing bullets to miss him, at 4th and stop bullets in midair, and even sending them back to the shooter at 11th.
There won't be needs to dip into gunslinger to get what classes need in the setting.
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My example was indeed steampunk-based, but it wouldn't have to be - each gunslinger is free to describe how his own weapon operates. One guy might use cogs and steam, another may have a tiny imp working the machinery inside his gun Discworld-style. :)
I wonder what kind of manner that gun would work. I imaging lots of tiny scaffolds, cranes, and 6-9 tiny surly work men loading each bullets like the shells of an artillery piece. And jams could be when something goes wrong.
After combat, a tiny bell rings and the imps punch their tickets into a tiny slot, and head home while the next batch go up to check in to the next round of combat.
Really anything goes with how the gun is modified or operated, just as long as the DM knows how this works as well. The real fun comes if the imp work crews go on strike, leaving the gunslinger trying to negotiate a deal with the imps, while everyone else just watches the gunslinger awkwardly while they talk to their gun.
The original spellslinger artwork for the wizard archetype is shown Here.
The style of clothing and coloration is a little bit different, but it LOOKS like the same character using different equipment. I suppose I could be wrong, however.
I was simply wondering about the weapon itself, I'm not interested in the toon or the spell. At least, not during this instance.