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Good morning everyone.
Theres a debate in our group concerning a mechanical concept around which a an entire party can be built. I've been told by some who's opinion I respect that it won't work, but the player in question is very excited about it and I'd like to get some sort of clarification if possible. The basic question is whether or not Inspired Rage counts as a 'true Rage' and thus will work with the teamwork feat Amplified Rage.
For discussion purposes, these are how the powers are written:
Inspired Rage (Su): At 1st level, affected allies gain a +2 morale bonus to Strength and Constitution and a +1 morale bonus on Will saving throws, but also take a –1 penalty to AC. While under the effects of inspired rage, allies other than the skald cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration. At 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter, the song's bonuses on Will saves increase by 1; the penalty to AC doesn't change. At 8th and 16th levels, the song's bonuses to Strength and Constitution increase by 2. (Unlike the barbarian's rage ability, those affected are not fatigued after the song ends.)
If an ally has her own rage class ability (such as barbarian's rage, bloodrager's bloodrage, or skald's inspired rage), she may use the Strength, Constitution, and Will saving throw bonuses, as well as AC penalties, based on her own ability and level instead of those from the skald (still suffering no fatigue afterward). However, inspired rage does not allow the ally to activate abilities dependent on other rage class abilities, such as rage powers, blood casting, or bloodrager bloodlines; the ally must activate her own rage class ability in order to use these features.
Amplified Rage (Teamwork)
Prerequisites: Half-orc or orc, rage class feature.
Benefit: Whenever you are raging and adjacent to a raging ally who also has this feat or flanking the same opponent as a raging ally with this feat, your morale bonuses to Strength and Constitution increase by +4. This feat does not stack with itself (you only gain this bonus from one qualifying ally, regardless of how many are adjacent to you).
Now the concept that's being put together is this - an all half-orc party that takes a single level of Bloodrager and Amplified Rage as their 1st level feat. Then one goes Skald and everyone else does what they want to do (two Weapon Masters and a Scarred Witch Doctor, respectively). By second level the Skald is doling out rounds of Inspired Rage for which everyone uses the bonuses granted by Bloodrage (+4 STR, +4 CON, -2 AC, +2 Will) which is then affected by Amplified Rage meaning the entire party, at 2nd level, is getting +8 STR, +8 CON, -2 AC and +2 Will. The Skald and the Witch stay close (remember that the Scarred Witch Doctor uses Con as his hex/casting stat) and the two weapon masters stay close, each feeding the other.
Now the crux of the argument seems to be whether to not having Inspired Rage cast upon you counts as the 'when you are Raging' requirement noted in Amplified Rage, or if to make use of that feat you'd need to be using your own Rage. The feat requires that you have your own Rage (and the characters technically do), which would seem to imply that that's the Rage they intend (as opposed to something like the Rage spell being cast upon you, which Inspired Rage seems to mimic). Moreover the Inspired Rage ability won't let players use their own Rage powers or abilities like Bloodcasting or Bloodline powers, again suggesting that they are not 'Raging' but instead are simply receiving bonuses from an outside source. Under the Furious weapon description, for instance, they call out Raging or 'under the effects of a Rage spell' as two separate but, in that case, equally acceptable requirements.
Another argument being made is that the combo would be grossly overpowered, and that its unlikely Paizo would have overlooked such a combo in two classes that were being released together.
This ruling will affect other feats as well, such as Fighting Frenzy, so what it comes down to is - while under the effects of Inspired Rage (or the spell Rage), are you considered to be 'Raging' for purposes of other abilities and feat requirements?
Yes. raging song is a rage effect/rage ability
and the same combo could be done with tactician ability from the cavalier giving the effect to everyone, then they'd not need to be half-orc nor have their own rage.
Yes. raging song is a rage effect/rage ability
and the same combo could be done with tactician ability from the cavalier giving the effect to everyone, then they'd not need to be half-orc nor have their own rage.
Is this pretty much the consensus - or better yet, are there any official rulings?
own rage class ability (such as barbarian's rage, bloodrager's bloodrage, or skald's inspired rage
boom, inspired rage is a rage same as a barbs or bloodrager
own rage class ability (such as barbarian's rage, bloodrager's bloodrage, or skald's inspired rage
boom, inspired rage is a rage same as a barbs or bloodrager
Well, I didn't ask if Inspired Rage was a 'rage class ability', I asked if the benefits from Inspired Rage counted as 'raging' for the purpose of qualifying for feats and special abilities. 'Boom' aside, that doesn't really answer the question - after all, I quoted the text in the OP, I know what it says.
Inspired Rage is much more similar to having a Rage spell cast upon you than it is raging yourself. In the description for the Furious weapon quality it says "When the wielder is raging or under the effect of a rage spell...", specifically calling the two circumstances out as different things. That seems to suggest that just because you're under a Rage effect doesn't automatically mean that you are 'Raging'...
Just looking for some clarification from someone who doesn't have a vested interest in the admissibility of it, one way or another.
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This is a problem with the way the PF rules are written - sometimes inconsistent and with no clear line between game-specific and colloquial terms.
It's a little odd. As far as I can tell, inspired rage doesn't count as the rage class feature (is lacks the terms in bloodrage that would make this the case) but it does count as raging (as does the rage spell). It seems likely to me that the line "raging or under the effect of a rage spell" in the Furious weapon description is redundant.
The closest thing to official clarification of these terms is this FAQ:
Anger management: If I am in a rage, or an Unchained rage, or a bloodrage, or some similar form of rage, can I stack up as many benefits as possible?
No. When you either activate or are affected by a new form of rage (such as a barbarian’s rage, a skald’s raging song, a bloodrager’s bloodrage, and the rage spell), you can choose whether to keep your current rage or to accept the new rage instead, much like a creature affected by multiple polymorph effects. If you are in the throes of a rage that you could not automatically end on your own, such as a wild rager’s wild rage, you may not choose to replace it with a new rage effect. The exception to this rule is the skald’s master skald ability, which explicitly allows the skald’s raging song to stack with other rage effects.
The reason you can't use your rage powers or bloodline abilities during raging song is that you can't stack rage effects, not that raging song isn't rage.
However it may violate the intent of Amplified Rage which seems to assume that you're using the rage class feature you used to qualify for the feat. Using the rage spell when you have the rage feature is close to pointless, and the skald didn't exist.
As the GM, you can decide whether you want to allow this. Personally I would go for it since the player sounds so enthused and it's not going to make one particular player overpowered compared to the others (though the party as a whole will be very strong so you'll want to adjust your encounters accordingly).
It's a little odd. As far as I can tell, inspired rage doesn't count as the rage class feature but it does count as raging (as does the rage spell).
See this FAQ:
Anger management: If I am in a rage, or an Unchained rage, or a bloodrage, or some similar form of rage, can I stack up as many benefits as possible?
No. When you either activate or are affected by a new form of rage (such as a barbarian’s rage, a skald’s raging song, a bloodrager’s bloodrage, and the rage spell), you can choose whether to keep your current rage or to accept the new rage instead, much like a creature affected by multiple polymorph effects. If you are in the throes of a rage that you could not automatically end on your own, such as a wild rager’s wild rage, you may not choose to replace it with a new rage effect. The exception to this rule is the skald’s master skald ability, which explicitly allows the skald’s raging song to stack with other rage effects.
If "raging" doesn't mean "under a rage effect" then what does it mean?
The reason you can't use your rage powers or bloodline abilities during raging song is that you can't stack rage effects, not that raging song isn't rage.
However it may violate the intent of Amplified Rage which seems to assume that you're using the rage class feature you used to qualify for the feat. Using the rage spell when you have the rage feature is close to pointless, and the skald didn't exist.
As the GM, you can decide whether you want to allow this. Personally I would go for it since the player sounds so enthused and it's not going to make one particular player overpowered compared to the others (though the party as a whole will be very strong so you'll want to adjust your encounters accordingly).
This may very well be a RAW vs. RAI sort of thing. To be honest the main reason I'm concerned about getting a straight forward ruling on the matter is that these characters (aside from the Scarred Witch, obviously) may well be used for PFS play and there's nothing worse than suddenly being told your character is illegal based upon a vague nuance of language.