Things you would change about Pathfinder

[Charon's Little Helper]

Bluenose wrote:

So Trogdor is famous for being Trogdor, not for being That Guy Who Carries Excalibat.

Trogdor was a man!

I mean, he was a dragon-man,
Or maybe he was just a dragon...
But he was still TROGDOR!
TROGDOR!

Burninating the countryside,
Burninating the peasants,
Burninating all the peoples,
And their thatched-roof COTTAGES!
THATCHED-ROOF COTTAGES!

...sry - couldn't resist.

[Meat]

I would start characters out stronger, and make the progression much much slower.

Say everyone starting around 20-40 hp, but only gaining a few each level.

Make damage a bit more skill based, and less weapon based.

[Bill Dunn]

The part of my wish list I can think of right now:

1. Get rid of small weapons and 3.5's irritating weapon sizes. Sure, it added an element of simulationism, but it's the only edition that did it and it's a pain the the butt for small characters. PF doesn't need to follow that path.

2. All saves are based on 1/2 HD, even weak ones. Strong saves gets a +2 class bonus added at end. Simplifies multiclassing and boosts weak saves.

3. Stat caps. 5e settled on 20, I would consider 24.

4. Cap on anything that can add to a DC. Spells can add max of 9 already, nothing coming from HD or level should exceed +10 (keep the DCs of high HD monsters in check).

5. More MAD. Pair up the stats into 1 offensive/1 defensive. Strength/Constitution, Charisma/Wisdom, Intelligence/Dexterity. Yep, make Int the quickness/deftness offensive stat. I'd consider reskinning it Acuity. Con/Wis/Dex affect saves, Str/Cha/Int affect attacks and spell DCs.

6. Pare down the clerical combat buffs

7. Scale the combat feats so they get better with levels

8. Reconfigure magic item costs to increase cost of Big6 and make upper level healing over the cure light wand viable. That may mean scaling magical healing more like magical spell damage.

9. Possibly gut the wands entirely into combat-application wands only.

10. Reform SR into bonus to saves rather than all or nothing.

11. Boost evocations by getting rid of dice caps, keep at standard action. Most other spells go to 1 round casting times, particularly the save or sit spells.

12. Give save or sit spells an alternate effect like daze or sickened, lasting no more than a round, for successful save so that they aren't wasted actions when they fail, but so that they aren't crippling either.

13. Give fighters 4 skill points/level. Maybe sorcerers too. Strongly consider some of the skill options in Unchanined like the 2 tiers of skills.

14. Implement something like backgrounds from 5e.

[Snowblind]

Mathmuse wrote:

Rynjin wrote:

3.) Scrap the "1 is auto-fail" and "20 is auto-success" rules. Maybe implement a "degrees of failure/success" rule so a 1 gives you a -5 and a 20 gives you a +5, or some other commensurate benefit.

Auto-fail and auto-success are simpler, so I disagree with this one.

How about this instead.

We integrate power attack into the system instead of making it a feat(or equivalent). We then add an opposite option that allows for trading damage for to-hit. Then we remove the natural 1/20 rules entirely.

The auto-X rules are only for two things: saves and attack rolls. I don't think many people would have a problem with stripping out auto-fail/success on saves. High level wizards should be able to mind control low level weak willed chumps without any chance of them resisting. A first level cleric should have zero chance of affecting a level twenty cleric with a Command spell.

As for attack rolls...I don't think anyone would mind removing the five percent chance of missing the broad side of a barn from ten feet away. If someone with a +20 to their attack targets something with an AC of 20, they should just hit it. No roll needed. The only real issue is that doing this makes some characters literally impossible to hit for other characters, which is arguably problematic. A much more elegant way of fixing this is to allow characters to simply drop their damage so they can hit better. Since I doubt the system would allow for extremely high accuracy gains, some low level creatures still won't be able to hit characters with really high AC, but frankly if a level 1 warrior is attacking a level 15 monk with 40AC+, the warrior should have zero chance of hitting the monk, regardless of how hard he tries.

The only issue I can see is that low level characters can't get that much of an accuracy boost with reverse-power-attack, but I would solve that by making what is now level 1 equivalent to about level 4, level 5 equivalent to about level 10, and level 20 to something like level 30. This would solve a lot of other issues with the system as well, so it's not an unreasonable change.

[Create Mr. Pitt]

Bill Dunn wrote:

The part of my wish list I can think of right now:

1. Get rid of small weapons and 3.5's irritating weapon sizes. Sure, it added an element of simulationism, but it's the only edition that did it and it's a pain the the butt for small characters. PF doesn't need to follow that path.

2. All saves are based on 1/2 HD, even weak ones. Strong saves gets a +2 class bonus added at end. Simplifies multiclassing and boosts weak saves.

3. Stat caps. 5e settled on 20, I would consider 24.

4. Cap on anything that can add to a DC. Spells can add max of 9 already, nothing coming from HD or level should exceed +10 (keep the DCs of high HD monsters in check).

5. More MAD. Pair up the stats into 1 offensive/1 defensive. Strength/Constitution, Charisma/Wisdom, Intelligence/Dexterity. Yep, make Int the quickness/deftness offensive stat. I'd consider reskinning it Acuity. Con/Wis/Dex affect saves, Str/Cha/Int affect attacks and spell DCs.

6. Pare down the clerical combat buffs

7. Scale the combat feats so they get better with levels

8. Reconfigure magic item costs to increase cost of Big6 and make upper level healing over the cure light wand viable. That may mean scaling magical healing more like magical spell damage.

9. Possibly gut the wands entirely into combat-application wands only.

10. Reform SR into bonus to saves rather than all or nothing.

11. Boost evocations by getting rid of dice caps, keep at standard action. Most other spells go to 1 round casting times, particularly the save or sit spells.

12. Give save or sit spells an alternate effect like daze or sickened, lasting no more than a round, for successful save so that they aren't wasted actions when they fail, but so that they aren't crippling either.

13. Give fighters 4 skill points/level. Maybe sorcerers too. Strongly consider some of the skill options in Unchanined like the 2 tiers of skills.

14. Implement something like backgrounds from 5e.

Nerfing save DCs and capping attribute bonuses, without changing monsters and converting SR into save DCs nerfs casters to boring as heck. Also I wouldn't make casters better at damage; that's the whole distinction, casters bf control better/martials do more damage. There are higher level spells with higher dice damage caps; that's fine. Arcane casters shouldn't be about blasting other than when they've already thrown out a few control spells; but taking enemies out of the action is what casters should do, damage should be the province of martials.

[Jiggy]

Bill Dunn wrote:

Pair up the stats into 1 offensive/1 defensive. Strength/Constitution, Charisma/Wisdom, Intelligence/Dexterity. Yep, make Int the quickness/deftness offensive stat. I'd consider reskinning it Acuity. Con/Wis/Dex affect saves, Str/Cha/Int affect attacks and spell DCs.

This intrigues me greatly.

[kyrt-ryder]

Bill Dunn wrote:

The part of my wish list I can think of right now:

1. Get rid of small weapons and 3.5's irritating weapon sizes. Sure, it added an element of simulationism, but it's the only edition that did it and it's a pain the the butt for small characters. PF doesn't need to follow that path.

I go the opposite route, keeping weapons made for creatures of X size, but allowing creatures to wield weapons of different sizes at the appropriate handed-ness [and forbidding anything that would be heavier than 2-handed or lighter than Light of course] without penalty.

Quote:

2. All saves are based on 1/2 HD, even weak ones. Strong saves gets a +2 class bonus added at end. Simplifies multiclassing and boosts weak saves.

This works out fairly well. I've gone with equal to HD and pulled out the stat-modifiers, but either could work.

Quote:

3. Stat caps. 5e settled on 20, I would consider 24.

Why?

I mean, I've done something vaguely similar by stripping most of the value out of the stats [to the point I'm now considering going all the way and simply going statless aside from HP, BAB and Saves] but I'd still like to hear your precise reasoning here.

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6. Pare down the clerical combat buffs

The problem isn't the Clerical Combat Buffs, it's the Range:Personal.

If it's more beneficial for the cleric to cast the buff on his martial buddy, he's more likely to do so, but he still has the option of Buffing Up if he's caught alone.

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8. Reconfigure magic item costs to increase cost of Big6 and make upper level healing over the cure light wand viable. That may mean scaling magical healing more like magical spell damage.

Agreed, healing [including the Heal Skill] is in serious need of amplification.

I'd far prefer to gut the big six rather than overprice them though. Just get rid of the damned things and work their bonuses into the system.

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9. Possibly gut the wands entirely into combat-application wands only.

Why?

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10. Reform SR into bonus to saves rather than all or nothing.

Isn't that still fundamentally all or nothing?

I mean it would be more useful for PC's who acquired SR [never did quite comprehend why the system makes it SO DAMNED DIFFICULT to get a functional degree of SR, especially when doing so has a pretty big negative side effect] but it's still All-Or-Nothing no?

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11. Boost evocations by getting rid of dice caps, keep at standard action. Most other spells go to 1 round casting times, particularly the save or sit spells.

Yeah, Evocation got screwed by the hit point bloat [and by remaining susceptible to Spell Resistance, something I've rectified in my home games.]

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12. Give save or sit spells an alternate effect like daze or sickened, lasting no more than a round, for successful save so that they aren't wasted actions when they fail, but so that they aren't crippling either.

Daze is still Sit.

Sickened and Entangled are fairly appropriate minor effects.

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13. Give fighters 4 skill points/level. Maybe sorcerers too. Strongly consider some of the skill options in Unchanined like the 2 tiers of skills.

No arguments here. [Well, except the fact that as written even giving them 6 skills does nothing to disbalance them. The Ranger who might otherwise balk still has spellcasting.]

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14. Implement something like backgrounds from 5e.

Does this really need to be built into the system? This sort of thing seems more appropriate as something to be sorted out by the GM and Player together without the system telling them how to do it.

[Kthulhu]

I'd replace the Core Rulebook with the Swords & Wizardry Complete Rulebook.

I'd replace Bestiary 1 with Monstrosities (S&W).

I'd replace Bestiaries 2-4 with the Tome of Horrors Complete (S&W).

I'd replace Bestiary 5 with the Tome of Horrors 4 (S&W).

I'd replace the GameMastery Guide with Bill Webb's Book of Dirty Tricks and Grimtooth's Ultimate Traps Collection.

I'd replace Ultimate Campaign with the Tome of Adventure Design.

I'd get rid of all the other books.

[Bill Dunn]

Jiggy wrote:

Bill Dunn wrote:

Pair up the stats into 1 offensive/1 defensive. Strength/Constitution, Charisma/Wisdom, Intelligence/Dexterity. Yep, make Int the quickness/deftness offensive stat. I'd consider reskinning it Acuity. Con/Wis/Dex affect saves, Str/Cha/Int affect attacks and spell DCs.

This intrigues me greatly.

I started thinking along this way after 4e gave us picking your defensive stats between the stat pairs. I totally think they zigged when they should have zagged, but it did spark the idea. So I guess my purchase of that edition wasn't completely wasted.

[Bill Dunn]

kyrt-ryder wrote:

Bill Dunn wrote:

3. Stat caps. 5e settled on 20, I would consider 24.

Why?

I mean, I've done something vaguely similar by stripping most of the value out of the stats [to the point I'm now considering going all the way and simply going statless aside from HP, BAB and Saves] but I'd still like to hear your precise reasoning here.

It keeps the number bloat down in general. It also keeps a heavily invested prime stat from outstripping the infrequently buffed secondary and defensive stats. Optimization is less of a problem when there's a natural limit to the degree of optimization relative to everything else. Plus, keeping limits on all of the incoming factors - stats and everything else that affects a DC (or an AC), keeps the overall game easier to manage, particularly when there are differences in optimization level at the same game table.

I don't want to strip the value out of stats. I want to contain them.

kyrt-ryder wrote:

Quote:

9. Possibly gut the wands entirely into combat-application wands only.

Why?

Gets rid of the caster overshadowing skill users for super low cost (like those wands of spider climb, knock, and invisibility. Wands in 1e largely served the purpose of weird utilities (like treasure finding and enemy identification) or combat. They served to allow the wizard to be up close to a fight and use spells, something fairly hard to do at the time. It's about time we got back to it.

[Bill Dunn]

Create Mr. Pitt wrote:

Nerfing save DCs and capping attribute bonuses, without changing monsters and converting SR into save DCs nerfs casters to boring as heck. Also I wouldn't make casters better at damage; that's the whole distinction, casters bf control better/martials do more damage. There are higher level spells with higher dice damage caps; that's fine. Arcane casters shouldn't be about blasting other than when they've already thrown out a few control spells; but taking enemies out of the action is what casters should do, damage should be the province of martials.

Frankly, they need a bit of a nerf. But I'd be capping monster stats as well, just a bit higher, depending on the type of monster and its size.

As far as being better at damage, the spellcaster needs more credible reason to do classic caster things - like cast evocation spells. The hit point bloat of 3e and PF really undermined evocation compared to 1e and 2e. The dice caps made some sense in 2e, but the assumption that led to them was blown away in 3e.
Arcane casters should be about whatever they want to be about and that includes blasting away with flashy magic.

[Create Mr. Pitt]

Bill Dunn wrote:

Create Mr. Pitt wrote:

Nerfing save DCs and capping attribute bonuses, without changing monsters and converting SR into save DCs nerfs casters to boring as heck. Also I wouldn't make casters better at damage; that's the whole distinction, casters bf control better/martials do more damage. There are higher level spells with higher dice damage caps; that's fine. Arcane casters shouldn't be about blasting other than when they've already thrown out a few control spells; but taking enemies out of the action is what casters should do, damage should be the province of martials.

Frankly, they need a bit of a nerf. But I'd be capping monster stats as well, just a bit higher, depending on the type of monster and its size.

As far as being better at damage, the spellcaster needs more credible reason to do classic caster things - like cast evocation spells. The hit point bloat of 3e and PF really undermined evocation compared to 1e and 2e. The dice caps made some sense in 2e, but the assumption that led to them was blown away in 3e.
Arcane casters should be about whatever they want to be about and that includes blasting away with flashy magic.

We can just agree to disagree on nerfing spellcasters; it's not fun when failure occurs over 50% of the time, even if there are added detriments to spell failure. And if you make arcane casters capable of dealing damage on par with martials it hurts disparity even more. I say don't touch casters too much, make things easier for martials (including mobility) and don't step on their toes re: damage. Arcane casters can still do a ton of damage to large groups and from long range, there is no reason to make this ability even better. Arcane casters should be bf control/SoS, buffing, and debuffing. Damage is good but it's what you do after you use a couple of spells to really give your party the edge.

[Bwang]

Redo combat so it lasts longer and is less first side wins. In another group, every character has Imp Initiative. Tactics and skill matter less than raw firepower. Lethality is such that I can't have the 'escapee who shows up several games later' or the 'guy who survived the massacre that comes back for vengeance'. I guess my years of Champions super hero gaming has warped me.