Breaking Down Variant Multiclass

[GhostwheelX]

What do you guys think about breaking down the VMC abilities as feats?

Instead of how they are now, they would be a feat line like so:

Dabbler
Prerequisites: 3rd level character
Benefit: Choose a class that you do not have. You gain the first-level and third-level Variant Multiclass abilities for that class, as well as any special rules that Variant Multiclass progression may possess.

Smatterer
Prerequisites: Dabbler feat, 7th level character
Benefit: You gain the 7th-level ability of the Variant Multiclass progression you chose for the Dabbler feat.

Novice
Prerequisites: Smatterer feat, 11th level character
Benefit: You gain the 11th-level ability of the Variant Multiclass progression you chose for the Dabbler feat.

Jack of All Trades
Prerequisites: Novice feat, 15th level character
Benefit: You gain the 15th-level ability of the Variant Multiclass progression you chose for the Dabbler feat.

Journeyman
Prerequisites: Jack of All Trades feat, 19th level character
Benefit: You gain the 19th-level ability of the Variant Multiclass progression you chose for the Dabbler feat.

[Samasboy1]

So rather than all or nothing, you can chose an exit point.

I like it

[kestral287]

There are some VMCs, like Wizard, that are intentionally balanced with a weak ability. You can have Wizard's incredibly awesome 7th level power, but four levels later when you're trading a feat for a cantrip you're going to pay for it.

So I'd be careful with this. On paper it looks good, but some things might wind up significantly more powerful for the trade.

[GhostwheelX]

kestral287 wrote:

There are some VMCs, like Wizard, that are intentionally balanced with a weak ability. You can have Wizard's incredibly awesome 7th level power, but four levels later when you're trading a feat for a cantrip you're going to pay for it.

So I'd be careful with this. On paper it looks good, but some things might wind up significantly more powerful for the trade.

The thing is, most of the VMCs are pretty meh, and the good ones get their good stuff pretty far down the line.

[Samasboy1]

I would add to Dabbler that if your VMC class has any 1st level benefits/restrictions you also gain them.

[GhostwheelX]

Right you are *fix'd*

[kestral287]

GhostwheelX wrote:

The thing is, most of the VMCs are pretty meh, and the good ones get their good stuff pretty far down the line.

Which this doesn't actually change?

I mean, I agree that the Druid is nigh-unusable simply because their stuff all kicks in a tier too late, and if you took out Wild Empathy to shift everything forward one and gave them a new 19th level ability, that'd be great.

But under this system, Druid VMC is just as useless, isn't it? I'm still not Wild Shaping before level 15.

All this really does is make the good ones, like Wizard, better by not saddling the character with less-useful abilities down the line. Which is fine, if that's what you want to do, but you're helping the front-loaded VMCs, not the back-loaded ones.

[GhostwheelX]

I actually consider Druid and Summoner to be the really good ones. The wizard ain't so great.

But what this means is that you can stack them quickly at later levels rather than having to slog through your entire progression waiting to get to the good stuff, especially if you have a source of bonus feats (like that which the Rogue gets with an Advanced Talent).

Plus, I don't think that the earlier abilities, even that of the Wizard, are so strong, that they'd be overpowered if you weren't forced to continue taking the abilities down the line.

[Snowblind]

...The third level Wizard VMC is a familiar. That's two feats, which have iron will as a prereq.

The seventh level is amazing. Acting in the surprise round + a huge bonus to init is spectacular. One level after you get it it is strictly better than improved initiative. How many characters pick up improved initiative.

With druid, Nature Soul + Animal Ally + Boon Companion is worth roughly the first three druid VMC features that feats are lost for, except with
the feat chain your companion is at full hit die before level frigging eleven -_-. The first level druid VMC is a penalty if anything - druidic is not worth losing access to mithril. Not at all. Weaksause Wildshape at fifteen is a joke.

[kestral287]

The Unchained Rogue is the only Pazio class who can take one of these with a bonus feat, to get that out of the way. And frankly with this setup they're massively incentivized to take Magus and grab the 3/7 feats at those levels, so they don't actually change.

The back-loaded VMCs still aren't getting much out of the flexibility. Yes, I can wait and get my companion with my level 7-9-11 feats-- but I still don't have an animal companion until level 11, which is the real problem with that VMC. Is it nicer for some builds than being forced to spend a feat at 3rd? Sure. But it doesn't really change a lot for them. Their big drawback is still the same than what it was. You just now have the option of sacrificing every feat you get after level 10 instead of spreading out the losses, if you'd rather. It doesn't change the core issues of those VMCs.

Insofar as the front-loaded ones, if you don't think they're a problem then that's your prerogative. All I can do is explain a potential pitfall.