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The skill unlock section is one of my favourite parts of Pathfinder Unchained. Not only is it a big part of the way the unchained rogue is designed to just be plain better than the classic rogue it just looks like a really fun system to play with on its own as well. It's really good stuff that spices up skill use and gives a way for characters to feel really heroic when using a skill.
One issue that I have with it though is that some of the unlocked skill abilities are so ridiculous they make the unchained rogue just plain the best class at using that skill when they unlock it. They even far outpace the classes that thematically should be the best of the best in those fields. It doesn't make sense to me that the party rogue can handle animals better than a druid can at skill 5 and then leave the party ranger humiliated at rank 10 by tracking even trackless creatures while the ranger is just staring slack jawed. (If there are other ways for a ranger to follow a trackless enemy by level 10 then please forgive my ignorance. I'm just taking about the basic use of the Survival Skill here)
Making skill unlocks a universal part of the game doesn't feel like the right move to me to mitigate this as it takes away one of the unique features of the unchained rogue. Allowing the Signature Skill feat to other classes is okay but it still feels weird to me that a ranger (for just one example) has to pay a feat tax to keep up with the rogue in the survival skill and if a ranger decides to pick Perception instead of Survival then the basic thematic issue of the rogue being a better survivalist than said ranger, highly perceptive though he or she may be, remains. Something like that should only happen if a player deliberately decides to make a ranger who's bad in the outdoors (by not putting skill ranks in the Survival skill). Requiring the ranger to pay a feat tax to keep up with the rogue in that skill is what doesn't seems not right to me.
So I'm thinking of a variant where the Signature Skill feat can't be picked (at least by non rogue characters) but EVERY class gets a <Class>'s edge class ability at level 5. This is the same as the Rogue's edge ability but every other class gets it only once instead of every five levels and they don't get to pick the skill. Instead it's defined for them (So Ranger's edge would be a Skill Unlock for Survival and Druid's edge would be a Skill unlock for Handle Animal from my examples).
This lets all classes keep up with the Rogue in their area of expertise but lets the Rogue pull ahead in the versatility of their awesome skill use rather than putting another class completely to shame in what should be their iconic skill.
So that's Part one. The variant rule. What do you guys think?
The second part of the post is the natural one of "Well ok so if every class gets a defined skill to excel at in their own edge class feature, which skill should it be?". And that's really asking the question of "What's the iconic skill associated with each character?" I had a bit of fun with going through and trying to pick one skill for each class that the Rogue shouldn't be able to outdo them in. Some of them came easy, some of them definitely did not (I tried really hard not to just default to Intimidate for all the fighty classes) and they're all open to debate. Let me know what you guys think of both parts.
So here's the Class's Edges that I thought of
Alchemist's Edge
Skill: Craft:Alchemy
Comment: An easy one, no should be able to outclass an Alchmist in this skill if the Alchemist puts the work (i.e: skill ranks) in.
Arcanist's Edge
Skill: Use Magic Device
Comment: Never really played or seen an Arcanist being played but from the description of them being the practical minded tinkerers of the arcane world Use Magic Device seems like it fits perfectly
Barbarian's Edge
Skill: Escape Artist
Comment: It was hard for me to not just stick all the low skilled martial classes with Intimidate but when I thought of Escape Artist for the freedom loving barbarian it just seemed to fit. You shouldn't be able to confine a barbarian for long. I think there might be some disagreement from others on this as Escape Artist isn't a class skill for the Barbarian.
Bard's Edge
Skill: One Perform skill of their choice.
Comment: True jack of all trades, but they're still master of one. And that one is Perform.
Bloodrager's Edge
Skill: Intimidate
Comment: Sorcerer and Barbarian are just such different parent classes for the BloodRager that I just couldn't come up with anything. Since the class has both blood and rage is in the name I plonked in Intimidate
Brawler's Edge
Skill: Acrobatics
Comment: Even the beefiest bruiser needs to be able to get to their opponent and even wrestle if they want to be effective. Both are Acrobatic things to be doing. Had a bit of hard time with this one but I ended up giving the Brawler the skill from their Monk parent class.
Cavalier's Edge
Skill: Ride
Comment: The bond between a Cavalier and his mount should be the most special thing.
Cleric's Edge
Skill: Heal
Comment: The clichéd choice. But what else could be put in here? Knowledge:Religion maybe but it's hard to get away from what the class was originally designed for. Any other ideas out there for this?
Druid's Edge
Skill: Handle Animal
Comment: So iconic I used it for one of my introductory examples. Druids are all about dealing with Nature on the deepest level. Rogues should only be able to keep up with them, not surpass them in this.
Fighter's Edge
Skill: Intimidate
Comment: The most martially versatile of all the classes in how they can be built to hurt people but not skilled at all. I went with the default Intimidate. It's not bad because it gives the class a bit of a social buff in a thematically appropriate way. Any other ideas?
Gunslinger's Edge
Skill: Sleight of Hand
Comment: Fastest gun wins the west and this skill fits QuickDraw McGraw well. Roland from the Dark Tower also twirled ammo casings so well he could hypnotize people with them. I think this is a fun and appropriate fit for one of the most Dex dependent classes in the game.
Hunter's Edge
Skill: Handle Animal
Comment: Another class I'm not familiar with but the write-up really pushes their close connection to their animal companion so.. Handle Animal it is.
Inquisitor's Edge
Skill: Sense Motive
Comment: An extra thematic buff for a very well themed class. Inquisitors should be able to spot a guilty conscience from the other side of the room. And the 5 rank level twins with the Wisdom boost to make the class an Initiative Monster. No brainer to me
Investigator's Edge
Skill: Perception
Comment: Another perfect thematic fit. The Investigator should be able to be head of the class at noticing things.
Magus' Edge
Skill: Use Magic Device
Comment: Had a bit of a hard time on this one as this is so martial focused. I really considered Perform:Dance as it's a bit of a showy class but I went with Use Magic Device. Could really use some feedback on this one.
Monk's Edge
Skill: Acrobatics
Comment: Elegantly moving around all the mooks to gracefully kick the big bad caster's face in is what Monks are for. Easy choice (for me anyway)
Oracle's Edge
Skill: Bluff
Comment: Everything from front line to squishy caster Oracles are so versatile in their builds and the source of their powers are so mysterious that it was hard to figure what their signature skill would be. Then I figured if they're so hard for me to pin down wouldn't they be hard for everyone else to understand as well? So Bluff it is.
Paladin's Edge
Skill: Diplomacy
Comment: Another place where we can just plop down Intimidate and call it a day but they're the most talky of the fighter classes so why not give their Diplomatic skills a buff to reinforce the theme?
Ranger's Edge
Skill: Survival
Comment: Horror that a rogue could outrank a ranger is what led to this whole post in my mind in the first place. A rogue should be able to keep up with, but not outpace, the ranger in this most iconic of ranger skills.
Shaman's Edge
Skill: Knowledge:Nature
Comment: This one was hard to me and should probably be changed maybe? Maybe it's fine with their deep connection to nature but not as animal themed as the Druid and the Hunter?
Skald's Edge
Skill: Perform
Comment: The Bard is strong with this class and the Barbarian side doesn't help much with deciding on an iconic skill for the class.
Slayer's Edge
Skill: Stealth
Comment: The consummate assassin
Sorcerer's Edge
Skill: Use Magic Device
Comment: I think I gave UMD to every sorcerer type of class. Innate magic power seems to make them feel like they really don't need much of the more mundane skills. Any other thoughts?
Summoner's Edge
Skill: Knowledge:Planes
Comment: Being able to summon a creature from the mysterious beyond should give you some insight into the planes I would think.
Swashbuckler's Edge
Skill: Acrobatics
Comment: What skill is it that helps you swing from the rafters? Yup, Acrobatics it is.
Warpriest's Edge
Skill: Knowledge:Religion
Comment: The WAR part of the class is pretty heavily emphasised. So I figured I'd give a bit of a buff to the priest part. They might have had much time for book learning in their training but at the very least they should be able to identify undead and their abilities with some ease right?
Witch's Edge
Skill:Intimidate
Comment: Class is a bit weak socially but thematically they be able to scare anything that can be scared. So this helps them out with that side of the image of the classic witch.
Wizard's Edge
Skill:Spellcraft
Comment: Nothing but book learning in some ways Wizards should be masters of the academic pursuit of all things magical.
Alternate Classes
Anti-Paladin
Skill: Intimidate
Comment: Even more appropriate here both as a better fit than for the Fighter and as a foil for the Diplomatic Paladin.
Ninja
Skill: Stealth
Comment: The other (and original) assassin.
Samurai:
Skill: Diplomacy
Comment: Almost went with Ride but Samurai's aren't quite as focused on the mount. Leader types for sure and that ties in with Diplomacy.
I think this variant gives each class a feature that really defines them further both thematically and mechanically by either emphasising their dominance in a certain field or giving them a bump in a skill that fits them but is a bit weak for them without the edge. It also gives them the ability to keep ahead for the rogue in one place (and that place only).
Also I kept Disable Device away from all the other classes. That should be reserved for the rogue to excel at more than anybody else.
Class Archetypes can modify this class feature of course and can help differentiate the archetype further from the main class. I'm not going through all the archetypes though :p
This seems pretty cool. I've moved it to the Homebrew subforum since it's a whole new homebrewed variant way to use skill unlocks!
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I don't think locking someone into a choice is the best plan of attack and agree that kestral that the best option may be to give every class an unlock at 5th level.
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I don't think locking someone into a choice is the best plan of attack and agree that kestral that the best option may be to give every class an unlock at 5th level.
As a middle ground you could limit it to one of their class skills.
That way the ranger who wants to be the very best at tracking still can be but the ranger who's put one token rank into survival isn't locked into a character type that the player's not interested in.
- Torger
I simply don't think all classes need skill unlocks. One here and there, but some don't make any sense at all like oracle.
In fact it just occurred to me that the rule as you've presented it effectively pre spends my characters skill points if I want to get anything out of it.
I get where you're coming from and I do completely agree that the rogue shouldn't be able to out track a ranger who's been focusing on tracking.
I just think that choice of whether or not they want to focus on tracking to begin with shouldn't be as hard coded into the class as this would make it.
- Torger
Torger: Yeah it does heavily encourage how to spend one of the skill points you get per rank but so do a lot of other class features. Monster Lore and Stern Gaze for example aren't forcing any Inquisitor to put points into Knowledge, Intimidate, and Sense Motive but they're certainly giving a not very gentle shove in that direction.
And giving every character at least some kind of skill unlock to play with is a bit of fun to my mind even when you have to stretch a bit to figure out what their iconic skill might be.
Versatility in skill mastery is something I wanted to keep to the rogue which is why I figured it would be interesting for every other class to be tied to one specific skill and not be allowed to choose.
This rule is basically close to not allowing skill unlocks for anyone but the rogue to keep it as much of a special rogue thing as possible while still allowing each class to keep at least on par with the rogue without paying a feat tax in what should be their best skill. And any Ranger who doesn't want to be especially good at Survival is free to ignore the class feature by putting their skill points elsewhere.
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I disagree a rogue that put his skill unlock in handle animal should be better than a druid, it represents an extreme focus into a skill. rogues are supposed to be the masters of skills and this makes them that finally.
likewise a ranger could just spend a feat to gain a skill unlock so what ever.
Now I've only played 3.5 and pathfinder, but I think the rogue was always meant to be primarily a skill monkey. In 3.5 there were a lot more skills you had to cover, and since pathfinder combined a lot of those skills into one, it's much easier now to get all the skills you need to cover, so to give the rogues back their edge (eh? c what I did there?!?) on the other classes when it comes to skills they now have the option to be able to do stuff others can't with a few skills of their choosing. Seems appropriate to me.
Torger: Yeah it does heavily encourage how to spend one of the skill points you get per rank but so do a lot of other class features. Monster Lore and Stern Gaze for example aren't forcing any Inquisitor to put points into Knowledge, Intimidate, and Sense Motive but they're certainly giving a not very gentle shove in that direction.
1) There are archetypes to trade out those abilities for people that are interested in the class but not those skills.
2) They "not so gently nudge you" toward putting some points into those skills, not a point every level. And that's on a class with a base 6sp/level. You've got a little wiggle room. Consider the poor fighter with his paltry 2sp/level who didn't really want to be scary but that intimidate skill unlock is soooo tempting.
still allowing each class to keep at least on par with the rogue without paying a feat tax in what should be their best skill. And any Ranger who doesn't want to be especially good at Survival is free to ignore the class feature by putting their skill points elsewhere.
I think the part I bolded is where we fundamentally disagree. I think what should be a characters best skill is a choice for the person who's making the character, not something that should be hard coded into a class.
I could easily create a plant focused druid who's only ok with animals. He doesn't have an animal companion (he took a domain). Animals like him a bit better than normal people but it's nothing amazing. On the other hand it would be neat if he could track like he was talking to the surrounding plants themselves gleaning the sort of information that seems all but magical to even the best of trackers. Too bad I'm locked into Handle Animal because that's what the rule has told me I'm supposed to be amazing at.
And likewise I can flip it and make the horse whisperer ranger, he's a passable tracker but animals seem to respond to him on an almost spiritual level. It's a gift.
Nope, can't do it, can only be best at tracking.
To summarize
- I agree that other classes should be able to keep up with the rogue in a skill
- I agree that a feat tax to do so is a little harsh
- I would balk at being to what skill my character is supposed to be good at then having it incentivized. I suspect I'm not alone in this.
- I'm strongly considering handing out a 5th level skill unlock in a class skill of the player's choice. So I thank you for bringing up the concern even if I don't agree with your execution.
Cheers
- Torger
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It would definitely be suitable as a system, but it should still include character choice. So, you should have limited options, pick one, to differentiate the classes.
Barbarian: Intimidate, Acrobatics, Survival
Bard: Perform or Knowledge Skill, Diplomacy, Bluff
Cleric: Heal, Diplomacy, Knowledge Religion.
Druid: Handle Animal, Knowledge Nature, Survival
Fighter: Any Class skill.
Monk: Acrobatics, Sense Motive, Diplomacy
Paladin: Diplomacy, Knowledge Religion
Ranger: Any 1 class skill
Rogue: Any 1 class skill (as normal)
Sorcerer: Either of the class skills in their bloodline, + UMD, Spellcraft.
Wizard: Any Knowledge skill, Spellcraft
Alchemist: Alchemy, Any Knowledge or Craft/Profession skill applicable to Alchemy.
Cavalier: Ride, Handle Animal, Diplomacy
Gunslinger: Sleight of hands, Intimidate, Craft (gunsmithing)
Inquisitor: Sense Motive; Any Knowledge Skill; INtimidate
Magus: Spellcraft; any knowledge skill.
Oracle: Knowledge Religion; Diplomacy; Sense Motive
Summoner: Any Knowledge skill
Witch: Any Knowledge Skill
--- Antipaladin: Bluff; Intimidate; Knowledge Religion
--- Ninja: Any 1 class skill
--- Samurai: As cavalier
==Aelryinth
if this was going to be implemented it should just be picked out of class skills. archetypes can change classes greatly, including their focus and usually also change class skills.
a lore warden fighter can't choose a knowledge skill?
if this was going to be implemented it should just be picked out of class skills. archetypes can change classes greatly, including their focus and usually also change class skills.
a lore warden fighter can't choose a knowledge skill?
Are knowledge skills class skills for a Lore Warden?
Any skill a barb takes a Rage Power upgrade to should also qualify.
I'd probably expand clerics to any skill acquired as part of a domain, too.
===Aelryinth
I disagree with some of your choices, but I think this is a good idea - almost a return to the "exclusive class skills" of 3.0 that helps reinforce the boundaries between classes that makes each distinctive and special.
The skills in 3.0 was, hands down, my least favorite thing in all of the illustrious history of D&D. I'd rather not return to that.
I just don't like the idea of binding the class to certain skills. It's only done sparsely as it is and only with characters that have a decent number of skill points.
I still prefer tying it down to one skill per class/archetype just to keep the versatility of skill mastery exclusive to the rogue (nobody else gets to decide because they're not rogues!).
My original system is definitely more permissive than the 'Skill unlocks only for the rogue' option from Unchained.
I'd say it's on par with the 'Signature Skill Feat allowed for others' option in terms of letting non rogues play with unlocked skills. It just trades away the versatility of the Signature Skill Feat in exchange for not requiring a feat tax.
But expanding the list of options is a great idea as well. This is all homebrew after all :). Allowing any class skill is certainly a way to make the rule simple and not have to come up with a list of options for each class. But coming up with options for each class is fun and I like Aelryinth's expanded list of possible edge skills as well.
Juda: From my understanding once you get your edge ability then you get all the skill unlocks as long as you fulfill the rank prerequisites. So the General class feature (modified from Rogue's Edge would be)
'Skill Edge'
At 5th level, your character has mastered a (single class skill OR a single skill chosen from the following list OR this one iconic skill) beyond that skill's normal boundaries, gaining results that others can only dream about. She gains the skill unlock powers for that skill as appropriate for her number of ranks in that skill.
Everybody gets a skill unlock but only one unlike the possible four that rogues get.
Are knowledge skills class skills for a Lore Warden?
yes
I still prefer tying it down to one skill per class/archetype just to keep the versatility of skill mastery exclusive to the rogue (nobody else gets to decide because they're not rogues!).
My original system is definitely more permissive than the 'Skill unlocks only for the rogue' option from Unchained.
but a huntsman cavalier doesn't care about ride...
but a huntsman cavalier doesn't care about ride...I still prefer tying it down to one skill per class/archetype just to keep the versatility of skill mastery exclusive to the rogue (nobody else gets to decide because they're not rogues!).
My original system is definitely more permissive than the 'Skill unlocks only for the rogue' option from Unchained.
And I've said that archetypes are free to modify the class feature :). Archeologist Bard would be an archetype of Bard that I would probably give Disable Device to for example (thus breaking my Disable Device only for rogue setup because it makes sense for that archetype). Huntsman Cavalier seems like a Handle Animal archetype.
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And I've said that archetypes are free to modify the class feature :). Archeologist Bard would be an archetype of Bard that I would probably give Disable Device to for example (thus breaking my Disable Device only for rogue setup because it makes sense for that archetype). Huntsman Cavalier seems like a Handle Animal archetype.but a huntsman cavalier doesn't care about ride...I still prefer tying it down to one skill per class/archetype just to keep the versatility of skill mastery exclusive to the rogue (nobody else gets to decide because they're not rogues!).
My original system is definitely more permissive than the 'Skill unlocks only for the rogue' option from Unchained.
at this point the rogue is falling behind in the skill department as giving skill unlocks out for free makes almost every option a better skill monkey than them in a general way. such as disable device. that bard has the same BAB and 2/3 casting it doesn't need the skill unlock on disable device.
it just feels like this is more power creep, when the rogue was just trying to catch up.
But coming up with options for each class is fun and I like Aelryinth's expanded list of possible edge skills as well.
Fair enough, to my mind it seems like a lot of extra work that ends with the players disagreeing with the choices someone else made about what their characters should be good at. But you know you players better than I do.
So is this a standard class feature, tied to class level? Or is it more like ability score increases, tied to character level?
In other words does a Ranger 5/Fighter 5 have the skill unlocks for both survival and intimidate?
Or does a ranger 3/Fighter 2 have a skill unlock and never get another? Does he get to choose or is it based on which class is higher level when he hits level character level 5?
- Torger
I disagree a rogue that put his skill unlock in handle animal should be better than a druid, it represents an extreme focus into a skill. rogues are supposed to be the masters of skills and this makes them that finally.Why? Why should the rogue be the master of handle animal? Why must the rogue do everything and everyone play Angry Birds in every non-combat situation? That's stupid. Niche protection is a terrible thing that forces people to play characters they aren't interested in to fill out the party's needs. Giving all of the niches to the rogue, a class people already resent because it was the only trap finder for three and a half editions, is just a bad idea compounded with a worse idea.
because for what ever reason that rogue spent their skill unlock in handle animal, apparently they're a VERY skilled person when it coems to handle animal, far higher than ordinary.
that rogue probably isn;t a knife in the dark but more like an exceptional person with animals. why can't a rogue be thematically a mundane druid?
likewise on the rest of your point. no one had skill unlocks til a few weeks ago, and they handled it just fine. in other words no one is forcing them to get skill unlocks, they can play a druid and do druid things without ever having known about skill unlock for handle animal.
++ before unchained the rogue had no niche, it literally had all it's jobs done better by someone else.
by the same token, why can't a play i druid with smite evil? why does only paladin get smite evil? for the same reason only rogues should get skill unlocks.
Bandw2: One of the reasons I was so restrictive in what skill could be unlocked was to keep skill unlocks mostly a rogue thing. Allowing other classes to pick whatever skill they want at 5th level takes away the versatility rogues should be known for to my mind. Still even with that option Rogues get 4 skill unlocks for free (by 20th level) where others get only one, plus Rogues sill have access to the Cutting Edge Rogue talent to go nuts with the number of skills they have unlocked (I'd even allow the Signature Skill feat only for rogues level 5 and up so they can go ultra nuts if they want).
Everyone else just has the one (in my system they don't even get to choose the one! If they want another skill unlocked then they can pick the appropriately themed archetype of that class anyway). It's still way better for those classes than the no skill unlocks for anyone else option from unchained. And it's a tough decision to make at character creation. Tough decisions are fun :).
Torget: I'm trying to keep the Class's Edge features as similar to Rogue's Edge as possible and in Rogue's Edge you have to get to level 5 rogue to get the skill unlock. So Ranger 5/Fighter 5 would get Survival when they hit Ranger 5 and Intimidate when they hit Fighter 5.
Let's not forget that characters can still put loads of ranks in a skill even if they haven't unlocked it and still be really good at it. Unlocking a skill is an extra layer of awesome; it's not a necessity.
Bandw2: One of the reasons I was so restrictive in what skill could be unlocked was to keep skill unlocks mostly a rogue thing. Allowing other classes to pick whatever skill they want at 5th level takes away the versatility rogues should be known for to my mind. Still even with that option Rogues get 4 skill unlocks for free (by 20th level) where others get only one, plus Rogues sill have access to the Cutting Edge Rogue talent to go nuts with the number of skills they have unlocked (I'd even allow the Signature Skill feat only for rogues level 5 and up so they can go ultra nuts if they want).
Everyone else just has the one (in my system they don't even get to choose the one! If they want another skill unlocked then they can pick the appropriately themed archetype of that class anyway). It's still way better for those classes than the no skill unlocks for anyone else option from unchained. And it's a tough decision to make at character creation. Tough decisions are fun :).
you can take the feat if you want the skill unlocks, that i'm fine with, giving them out for free i am not. It only takes everyone having 1 skill unlock to still have the rogue end up coming behind in those skills again.
That's a pretty big deal. The Rogue is still by far the most versatile skill monkey on the table.
as been proven over countless sessions this just ends up becoming jack of all trades but master of none. so you still have the bard running diplomacy or the spell casters casting identify, etc.
I disagree a rogue that put his skill unlock in handle animal should be better than a druid, it represents an extreme focus into a skill. rogues are supposed to be the masters of skills and this makes them that finally.Why? Why should the rogue be the master of handle animal? Why must the rogue do everything and everyone play Angry Birds in every non-combat situation?
Wait, what? That's a false dichotomy if I ever saw one. A druid has LOADS AND LOADS AND LOADS to do out of combat even _if_ it was stuck in a group with a rogue that has focused extensively on Handle Animal. It doesn't have to play Angry Birds, it can turn into an angry bird, or go talk to a rock or dozens of other options that are not available to the rogue.
Why must the rogue play angry birds in every non-combat situation? Why don't we give the rogue the druids spellcasting?
Most of these skill unlocks frankly look like things everyone should just be able to do and often at a lower level than indicated.
teaching an animal to understand your language?
I have no problems with giving Fighters a skill unlock for one skill. Especially for something like crafting...the best smiths have always been Fighters, for example.
Wizards and full casters...yeah, very restrictive on what they might take. It has to cater to their class and their focus, and like it or not, clerics have always been associated with both magical and non-magical healing, because it's a benefit to the lower classes and they have continuity of knowledge. There isn't a professional medical field in most Fantasy worlds that freely trades knowledge of medicine.
Bards have this crazy focus on both knowledge and perform skills...one addressing their 'loremaster' role, and the other their 'minstrelry' role. It really should be separated.
I'd be really cool with offering no skill unlocks to people with full caster levels, very restricted unlocks to partial casters, and a single unlock to non-casters.
I'd definitely keep iconic Rogue skills off the table for those unlocks, however.
==Aelryinth
Let's not forget that characters can still put loads of ranks in a skill even if they haven't unlocked it and still be really good at it. Unlocking a skill is an extra layer of awesome; it's not a necessity.
Ok, no, right from the get go this thread hasn't been about who can be good at a skill it's been about who can be the best at a skill (Ranger v Rogue at tracking). Skill unlocks raise the bar on what can be considered the best and being the best at a thing is a fairly common character creation goal. Saying that good is good enough doesn't cut it as evidenced by your own feelings on the ranger v rogue tracking problem.
You're of the opinion that what skill a character should have the opportunity to be the best in the world at should be a single option that's rigidly defined by their class. Fair enough, but don't try and sell good is good enough. Clearly for your idea of a ranger good at tracking isn't good enough.
- Torger
P.S.
Under this system the:
Best blacksmith in the world is a rogue
Best librarian in the world - rogue
Best in the world at running a business - Rogue
Most knowledgeable person in the world in an area of expertise - rogue
Best flyer in the world - rogue
Best swimmer in the world - rogue
etc etc
Maybe that's how you want it and if so that's fine.
@Torger- I see your point about pretty much a rogue is capable at being better at a skill than anyone else, but I guess that could be fixed by not defining your character by his class name. Also you all seem to forget that it is only in pfs that the rogue is the only one who can get skill unlocks. Anyone can get a skill unlock they just have to take a feat. The unchained rogue simply gets a few free ones as a class skill.
man, when you go to a library and the librarian knows exactly where the book you want is, you know best to keep your eye on her else she may backstab you for so much damage.
but yeah, if a ranger wants to be REALLY good at tracking he needs to spend a feat on it in my game. and likewise he can then spend it on anything he wants,
kestral287: I'll certainly plead guilty as charged in prioritizing theme rather than what skill is mechanically powerful in choosing what class should get what.
Torger: I don't think I'm being inconsistent.
For most class and skill combinations just putting loads of ranks into a skill you like is more than enough to get really good with the skill. A Ranger with +13 in Sense Motive will be pretty damn good at figuring out someone's motivations without the mind reading tricks of the unlock and that's good enough.
For some class and skill combinations though it doesn't make sense that the rogue can pull of tricks with the skill that another class has no access to. (Unlocked Survival and Ranger for example).
I guess the needle I'm threading is:
* Unlocked skills are strictly better than locked skills. So the classes that should be the best at that skill need to have it unlocked for free in a similar manner to Rogue's edge.
* Unlocked skills aren't necessary to still being good with the skill. So classes that aren't thematically supposed to be the best of the best with the skill can still be really very good with the standard method of investing ranks into it (just not the 'best'). a +23 bonus or whatever in any skill is really fantastic for the challenges the game throws at you.
* The Rogue should get the most of the unlocked skills system from unchained. Having more unlocks and more ways to get even more unlocks does a pretty good job of this. Even if the other four members of the group have different skills. Rogue still has Disable Device all to itself. (In fact I now think Archaeologist Bards should get Kn:Dungeoneering as their skill instead of Disable Device) Plus in my games I've always found that having multiple people good with the same skills is a life saver since a bad roll from the one who's supposed to be the specialist can be pulled out of the fire by the other person who's overlapping.
kestral287: I'll certainly plead guilty as charged in prioritizing theme rather than what skill is mechanically powerful in choosing what class should get what.
i'm guessing your one of those GMs who look at their players funny when they play a ranger, but thematically they're a noble with a hunting dog.
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Why does it need to be free? Just because the rogue gets a few for free? Why must we give away something the rogue just got to literally everyone else? Not to mention that in a non pfs game they can still get it via taking a feat. Not only does it help the rogue out by at the very least he gets a few for free and can get more unlocks with less effort, but you also won't be shoving one set in stone skill for that class to unlock in the players face.
If you aren't a rogue and want an unlock spend a feat, super simple.
If you think the druid has nothing to do out of combat, you've never seen a druid with a good int. They can make absurdly good skill characters and back it up with flying, earthgliding, shrinking for stealth for unmatched versatility.
kestral287: I'll certainly plead guilty as charged in prioritizing theme rather than what skill is mechanically powerful in choosing what class should get what.i'm guessing your one of those GMs who look at their players funny when they play a ranger, but thematically they're a noble with a hunting dog.
Not a GM... Not yet anyway. But no I've got no issue with their theme. I'd also have no real problem with them not getting much use out of a homebrewed class feature that's adding to a character and not taking away from the standard features of the class. They can ignore Survival if they want. There's other class features of the vanilla ranger that doesn't really fit the noble theme either (such as Woodland Stride). That's okay too.
kestral287: I posted the list to get some feedback on my initial ideas. I enjoy reading discussions about how Kn:Nature makes more sense as an Iconic Skill for a Druid rather than Handle Animal etc.
Ok here's a thought, every class is gaining skill unlocks at no expense right? The heck is the unchained rogue getting? If your gonna do This I suggest not putting a restriction on what skill each class unlocks for free but they only get one from the class while the unchained rogue still gets multiple as they level. However now the unchained rogue is getting left out as they aren't getting anything extra as their skill unlock was calculated into what you get for being that class. You should come up with something extra they get too.