| kingadee |
Hey guys!
I'm relativley new at pathfinder, though not to new to be unable to navigate the forums and I was
hoping someone would be able to offer me a little bit of help with my ranger!
I wanted to build a natural weapon based ranger, now I've already browsed through the forums on it and I know fullwell ahead of time
that not only are nat weapon rangers unfavorable compared to druids, but that they also tend to drop off in effectivness later in the game.
This guy is the most geared towards getting in combat in our campaign, so that's turning out to be a little scary considering the campaign we're doing
is probably going to last a relativley long time andgo into the late game. It's just a one on one campaign too, so even
though theres npc's in the party to support him, making sure the guy can work to the best of his ability is
incredibly important to me.
As a quick sidenote, and I know this might make a few cringe but we are using a custom race on the low end of CR2. The stats being.
Dungeon dragon, young
medium sized creature
Attacks
1 bite at 1d4
2 claws at 1d3
2 wings at 1d2
Alter self (used to stay in gnoll form more often than not)
Breath weapon, confusion 1d6 dc 15, cone 30ft
Flight 30ft(good)
+2 strength +2 con -2 wisdom
+4 to perception
+2 nat armor
Rolled stats total = st 20 Dex 15 Con 16 int 13, wis 12 cha 10 (I was fairly happy with them yeah)
Now, the solution I had been thinking of going towards was having improved natural attack on his claws
and rending claws, along with an amulet of mighty fists to try and make sure he stays strong in the
early game. However, I thought the best way to try and make sure he could be a strong enough character
in the late game would be to take advantage of the fact that I could swap attacks for combat manuevers. Since
the guy is already getting +5 to his strength by level two basically, I think I could get his CMB high
and combine it with the fact that he has so many chances to get the maneuvers in that he could simply outperform
enemies int he late game, using trips, disarms and dirty tricks to be able to put enemies at a disadvantage and really lay into them
Another big thing I was hoping that our spellcaster could use enlarge person spells and the such on him, since it would have all of those wonderful nat attacks going up in damage, and be a pretty damn good buff for him
I know it's a bit bad, but I'm heavy on flavour, and he really needs to stay a ranger and be focused on nat attacks
if dualclassing to get spells or to get other bonuses from classes would help him, I'd be completley opne to it though
Thanks in advance for your help guys! I appreciate it.
(also, as a quick question, even though he is changing from a medium creature to a medium creature with alter self, does he still get the additional +2 strength from it?)
| voideternal |
(also, as a quick question, even though he is changing from a medium creature to a medium creature with alter self, does he still get the additional +2 strength from it?)
I'll answer your quick question. If your custom race is using an Alter Self effect to become a medium humanoid, you get a +2 size bonus to Strength regardless of your original form.
On the other hand, if you're using the Change Shape special quality, like some dragons such as the Bronze, Silver, or Gold Dragon, then you do not get the +2 size bonus.
Covert Operator
|
You can't actually substitute Dirty Tricks for weapon attacks, unless you take Quick Dirty Trick (which is still 1/round)
If you want to transition in to an awesome late-game build, go in to alchemist and get the Tentacle discovery and pour all your buffs on to that. This discovery behaves extremely weirdly compared to all other attacks in the game: you can switch any attack you could make for a tentacle attack. So what you do is get as many weak natural attacks as you can, pick up all the TWF feats and Multiattack, and then switch all your possible attacks into Tentacle attacks. Your attacks block will look something like:
ATTACKS
Blade Boot +32/+27/+22 (1d4+?) and Armor Spikes +32/+27/+22 (1d6+?) and 2 claws +30 (1d4+?) and Bite +30 (1d6+?) and Gore +30 (1d4+?) etc.
Tentacle +32/+32/+27/+27/+22/+22/+30/+30/+30/+30/+30 (1d?+?)
| kingadee |
You can't actually substitute Dirty Tricks for weapon attacks, unless you take Quick Dirty Trick (which is still 1/round)
If you want to transition in to an awesome late-game build, go in to alchemist and get the Tentacle discovery and pour all your buffs on to that. This discovery behaves extremely weirdly compared to all other attacks in the game: you can switch any attack you could make for a tentacle attack. So what you do is get as many weak natural attacks as you can, pick up all the TWF feats and Multiattack, and then switch all your possible attacks into Tentacle attacks. Your attacks block will look something like:
ATTACKS
Blade Boot +32/+27/+22 (1d4+?) and Armor Spikes +32/+27/+22 (1d6+?) and 2 claws +30 (1d4+?) and Bite +30 (1d6+?) and Gore +30 (1d4+?) etc.
Tentacle +32/+32/+27/+27/+22/+22/+30/+30/+30/+30/+30 (1d?+?)
Ah dang thanks! That's a really straightforward way to keep him relevant int he fights!
A few questions though, first of all, I can't see where it says in the tentacle discovery that it can be substituted for my other attacks, how is that possible? and if a feat allows me to substitute one attack for another why not go for my bite? (as dragons get 1+1/2 their strength on damage rolls for bites)
Additionally, after asking a friend about dipping into alchemist he said that going into vivisectionist would be a good idea too, since it would add a huge amount of sneak attack damage for each natural attack when I could get into flanking.
How do I get in attacks for armor spikes, and have it count as an attack for swapping?
Last question for the bunch, does twf feats apply to natural weapons? I'd been told it doesn't before.
Thanks for your time!
Dafydd
|
2wf does not apply to natural attacks. Normally, you get 1 attack, with each natural weapon during a full attack, ie. what makes natural attackers king in low levels as they will have 2-3 attacks vs most people's 1.
I am actually not familiar with Covert Operater's tentacle plan, so I can not comment on if it is legal. However, if it is legal, it is an exception to the rule, not the rule itself.
Vivisectionist is a strong choice for alchemist, not so much for flank as it is for the greater invisibility (and regular invisibility to a much lesser extent). You also have mutagen and other extracts to buff with. I still prefer vanilla alchemist in the long run, but tastes can vary widely and vivisectionist is far from a bad choice.
Double check that you are humanoid before counting on enlarge person. Being a dragon, while it has it's own list of benefits, does make you immune to spells that target humanoids (aasimars have to deal with that daily)
While you can sub trip, disarm and sunder for normal attacks (including natural attacks) the rest require a feat, that has a pre req, that in turn has a pre req. In other words, 3 feats to do a dirty trick to someone during your dance of a thousand claws. Not terrible, but far from a good option in my book (unless you are a fighter). That said, you will want feat B anyway with a dirty trick build, and feat C is required to get A and B. Additional luck, your INT comes in just high enough to qualify for feat C.
If you wanna stay ranger, have you looked at "Better Rogue" or Slayer as it is officially titled? Studied combat, which you can get in for free when you sneak attack, ranger combat style and some other fun tricks to boot.
| Woodoodoo |
Honestly you are pretty much set with what you have. Having 5 nat attacks from the get go is pretty strong and you will be doing some strong damage.
Now, the worry for nat attack build later in the game is creatures with damage reduction but since you have a ranger you could even swap out one of your secondary stats and put it in cha and take 2 levels of paladin for a bonus to saves and smite evil.
Anyways you can go pretty much anywhere with this build and still be relevant so just have fun with it. =)
| kingadee |
Honestly you are pretty much set with what you have. Having 5 nat attacks from the get go is pretty strong and you will be doing some strong damage.
Now, the worry for nat attack build later in the game is creatures with damage reduction but since you have a ranger you could even swap out one of your secondary stats and put it in cha and take 2 levels of paladin for a bonus to saves and smite evil.
Anyways you can go pretty much anywhere with this build and still be relevant so just have fun with it. =)
Thanks! much appreciated
| kingadee |
2wf does not apply to natural attacks. Normally, you get 1 attack, with each natural weapon during a full attack, ie. what makes natural attackers king in low levels as they will have 2-3 attacks vs most people's 1.
I am actually not familiar with Covert Operater's tentacle plan, so I can not comment on if it is legal. However, if it is legal, it is an exception to the rule, not the rule itself.
Vivisectionist is a strong choice for alchemist, not so much for flank as it is for the greater invisibility (and regular invisibility to a much lesser extent). You also have mutagen and other extracts to buff with. I still prefer vanilla alchemist in the long run, but tastes can vary widely and vivisectionist is far from a bad choice.
Double check that you are humanoid before counting on enlarge person. Being a dragon, while it has it's own list of benefits, does make you immune to spells that target humanoids (aasimars have to deal with that daily)
While you can sub trip, disarm and sunder for normal attacks (including natural attacks) the rest require a feat, that has a pre req, that in turn has a pre req. In other words, 3 feats to do a dirty trick to someone during your dance of a thousand claws. Not terrible, but far from a good option in my book (unless you are a fighter). That said, you will want feat B anyway with a dirty trick build, and feat C is required to get A and B. Additional luck, your INT comes in just high enough to qualify for feat C.
If you wanna stay ranger, have you looked at "Better Rogue" or Slayer as it is officially titled? Studied combat, which you can get in for free when you sneak attack, ranger combat style and some other fun tricks to boot.
Oh dang, thanks! I hadn't actually seen that class before, and it seems to satisfy what I was looking for quite a bit more too. Thanks alot!
|
Covert Operator
|
You may be in waaaay over your head with this, but I'll try to explain the situation:
First, the two discoveries in question: Tentacle and Vestigial Arm
Someone asked on the boards: Can I TWF with Greatswords using the Vestigial Arm discovery?
This is a looooong read, but you may feel you have to do it to fully understand. They don't actually talk about the Tentacle discovery, but that thread is where the shakedown all happened.
It led to That FAQ, which is woefully incomplete. They determine in the thread, helped along with Sean K Reynolds (the guy who wrote the FAQ), that "[with Vestigial Arms,] you can make attacks as normal, but the number of attacks you make can't exceed the number you could make without." Note that a character could always make iterative Unarmed Strikes and their natural attacks, so Greatsword iteratives/Claw/Claw is the same number of attacks as Unarmed Strike iteratives/Claw/Claw, even though the former is much more powerful and can only be done with two extra hands.
In other threads I won't find, it has become consensus that the Tentacle works the same way, except it cannot wield weapons but has the 'grab' ability.
So you can make as many attacks with Tentacle as you want but your original number of attacks cannot exceed your previous number of attacks.
So a character without the discovery could make a number of attacks equal to the number your iteratives would allow (twice if you're TWFing) plus the number of natural attacks you have. A character with the discovery can make the same number of attacks, but they can make any of those attacks with tentacles instead of the normal weapon
You may not know the "hands" vs literal hands discussion, but here it is:
When making manufactured weapon attacks and not TWFing, using a weapon to attack consumes that "hand" of attacks, whether it is a two-handed weapon or not. You can actually make different iterative attacks with different weapons, which means different literal hands, but it is all the same "hand." Meanwhile, you can TWF if you don't wield a 2-handed weapon, because a two-handed weapon consumes both "hands" of attack; if you think you could use armor spikes as an off-hand weapon, you can't if you wield a two-handed weapon but you can with a one-handed weapon (wielded in one hand).
Natural Attacks, meanwhile, are actually based off of literal hands.You can make claw attacks without consuming your "hand" worth of attacks. So you could go-- armour spikes/blade boot/claw/claw but you couldn't go-- dagger/dagger/armor spikes (this is assuming a character without iterative.)
See the bottom of this post for the fact that you can replace attacks with a wing attack even if you don't gain a Wing natural attack.
I composed this post over like 3 days lol. It's probably not cohesive