Okay, so I'm finding a consistent problem with my characters at early levels. Unless I'm building a STR-based character, it is virtually impossible to carry all the gear I need to start with at early levels. Later on, when bags of holding and handy haversacks come around, this problem is largely eliminated, but until I can afford them, I need options. Masterwork backpacks are super expensive at Level 1, where this problem is most acute, and only help a little. So far, the only options I see the game providing me are:
Option 1: Go with insufficient gear. This means either traveling around without food or water or anything but the stuff you need to stay alive in combat or carrying around your food, water, and other necessities but being seriously under-equipped for a fight.
Option 2: Go encumbered. Medium encumbrance sucks, especially for dex-based melee builds, who are the characters who suffer most from this problem. Still, it's an option, about on par with carrying insufficient battle gear.
Option 3: Take an animal. This seems like a great option. Just pick up a donkey for cheap and throw anything too heavy for you to carry on that. However, this does come with its problems, since most of the characters who have the gear problem also have low charisma scores, and so either have to put points into Handle Animal (and still suck at it) or slow down the game wrestling with their beast of burden. Plus animals add work for the GM and extra bean-counting.
What I really wish I could have would be:
Option 4: A hand cart or wheelbarrow or similar device that would be a free action to let go of and reduce my encumbrance. I don't need to carry MUCH more than my encumbrance level, and I don't need to carry all my survival gear into every fight (or any fight, for that matter). Sure, it would be easier for someone to come along and steal my stuff while I'm busy fighting, and if I have to retreat I might lose the stuff, but that's all true about an animal, too.
The problem is that while Option 4 is definitely possible in real life and can be accomplished quite easily with medieval technology, I don't think there are any rules for it. There's a cart that can carry up to 300 pounds, but takes two medium-sized creatures to pull it. I just wish there was something about a quarter of the size that could be pulled by one medium creature that could carry up to 50 pounds.
Is there something like this in the game that I've just not found yet? Are there other options for low-level characters to haul their gear around?
Keep all your non-combat stuff in a backpack.
Give backpack to Fighter.
Profit.
You could always carry a backpack that puts you above medium encumprance, and then dump it before going into combat.
Or pass your gear off to someone with a high strength score.
Option 4 is extremely problematic in real life. Don't believe me?
Take a wheelbarrow to a campground, load it with 70-80 pounds of rocks or something, then push it around for the whole freaking day. Up hills, off roads, avoiding trails, through trees and rocks and underbrush, through mud and rain and snow, through dense jungles, rocky hills, steep mountains, sandy dunes, etc. Try fording a stream with it, or climbing a cliff with your wheelbarrow.
All these things CAN be done, but wow what a pain in the butt that would be.
Now try doing all that and keeping up with a friend who is unburdened with no wheelbarrow and walking at a normal speed.
Through any but the most optimal perfect terrain, you would almost certainly be slowed down. As a GM I would say the same thing, a 30' movement rate with a wheelbarrow means moving at 20'. That might not be RAW, but it makes perfect sense to me.
All of that suggests that having a mule would not make you slower. A trained mule with a halter and lead rope is not that hard to handle - you should not need to make handle animal checks at all. Of course, it runs away from every monster, but only a few hundred feet or so, so you can just go get it later. Calm it down with a carrot (hopefully you can keep that in your pocket without being too encumbered) and round up your mule.
Or just carry a big sack over your shoulder. Holding it, not strapping it or tying it onto you. When combat starts, just drop it as a free action and join combat. Yeah, you might have to move at a slower rate while you're walking around, but your wheelbarrow would do the same thing anyway, so why not make it easy.
Movement speed is reduced if I go with Medium encumbrance anyway. The problem with dumping a backpack before combat is that it can't possibly be a swift or free action, and so your first round is wasted getting rid of your encumbrance. The build I'm currently working with IS the fighter, so I can't give him my stuff. Plus, other characters generally frown on that sort of thing.
I'm fine with dealing with the effects of encumbrance outside of combat, so long as I can get rid of them at any time quickly and easily. The sack idea isn't bad. I'll just say I never strap my backpack on properly and there we go. Sure, the party will be slower, but if there are any dwarves or small creatures, it would be exactly the same.
Also, this is unrelated, but is there a way to get email notifications for these forums? It would really help me keep track of things, and I haven't been able to find an option for that yet.
Muleback Cords Aura faint transmutation; CL 3rd Slot shoulders; Price 1,000 GP; Weight 1/4 lb. Description These thick leather cords wrap around the wearer's biceps and shoulders; when worn, they make the muscles appear larger than normal. The wearer treats his Strength score as 8 higher than normal when determining his carrying capacity.
Found in Ultimate Equipment pg267.
I said EARLY LEVELS! There is no magic item inexpensive enough to belong on a LEVEL 1 CHARACTER SHEET. Wands of Ant Haul, Muleback Cords, and other similar ideas are NOT RELEVANT TO THIS QUESTION! Also, I already addressed the reasons why Handle Animal + donkey is not an ideal option here! At least TRY to understand the problem before giving me advice on how to fix it!
/rant
Now, the stretcher idea has merit. Mechanically, it sounds like exactly what I was looking for. I'm going to look it up right now.
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The problem with dumping a backpack before combat is that it can't possibly be a swift or free action, and so your first round is wasted getting rid of your encumbrance.
I didn't say discard a backpack.
I said:
Or just carry a big sack over your shoulder. Holding it, not strapping it or tying it onto you. When combat starts, just drop it as a free action and join combat. Yeah, you might have to move at a slower rate while you're walking around, but your wheelbarrow would do the same thing anyway, so why not make it easy.
Sack. In your hand. Free action to drop. Deal with medium encumbrance slowing you down - you chose this build, you obvious want to be a DEX fighter and there are definite advantages (like being dependent on two ability scores instead of three). Being encumbered IS one of the small prices you pay for this advantage, so just deal with it.
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Put it is a cart. Attach said cart to dumb as ox Barbarian.
Or you know backpack and drop it before going into combat. You're not wasting combat time if you drop it before combat even starts. In the typical dungeon this will probably mean clean a room room and leave extra gear there. When you have a more secure room you can move extra gear to that room.
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I said EARLY LEVELS! There is no magic item inexpensive enough to belong on a LEVEL 1 CHARACTER SHEET. Wands of Ant Haul, Muleback Cords, and other similar ideas are NOT RELEVANT TO THIS QUESTION! Also, I already addressed the reasons why Handle Animal + donkey is not an ideal option here! At least TRY to understand the problem before giving me advice on how to fix it!
/rantNow, the stretcher idea has merit. Mechanically, it sounds like exactly what I was looking for. I'm going to look it up right now.
A wand of ant haul is only 750 gp, and easily affordable after 1-2 adventures, especially in PFS where you can buy one for 2 PP.
Seriously, get someone else in the party to carry most of your food - maybe keep 1 day on you. Pay them to be your porter if you have to. It solves the movement rate bit entirely, including the possibility of slowing strategic movement, doesn't cost any actions, and can be done from level 1.
what are you carrying OP
and what is your STR stat
The problem with dumping a backpack before combat is that it can't possibly be a swift or free action, and so your first round is wasted getting rid of your encumbrance.I didn't say discard a backpack.
I said:
Or just carry a big sack over your shoulder. Holding it, not strapping it or tying it onto you. When combat starts, just drop it as a free action and join combat. Yeah, you might have to move at a slower rate while you're walking around, but your wheelbarrow would do the same thing anyway, so why not make it easy.Sack. In your hand. Free action to drop. Deal with medium encumbrance slowing you down - you chose this build, you obvious want to be a DEX fighter and there are definite advantages (like being dependent on two ability scores instead of three). Being encumbered IS one of the small prices you pay for this advantage, so just deal with it.
Sorry about the confusion, I should have done quote tags (still getting used to this forum setup). I did acknowledge that the sack idea was a good one.
The real gem of the build I'm working on is that I will eventually be dual-wielding bastard swords, but the build really doesn't come into its own until I can get Improved TWF, and I can't even use the bastard sword properly on its own until Level 3 (at which point I start wielding a rapier in my off-hand). I get that Dex-based fighters have to deal with drawbacks, but with the build I'm going for, I really need to not cripple myself any further than I already have.
There's a difference between a new character and a lv1 character. A lv1 can have gold and stuff to them. In PFS a lv1 can easily afford a lv1 wand before hitting lv2. Thus the cheap options are valid for lv1 characters, but not starting wealth characters. So they are answering the question you asked, if not the question you meant.
Muscle of society or something trait that lets you carry more.
What races, classes and stats are you going for for your guy?
Use a stretcher. Stetchers have a carrying capacity, and they can be dragged. There are sufficient rules describing it. It holds up to 300#. In the real world, a stretcher used in this way is called a travois. They are described in Ultimate Equipment as Individulal/Special Tools. They weigh 10# and cost 1gp.
This works.
I personally think a good GM would interfere with this, at least occasionally. After all, the character in question chose a build that dumps STR because he wants to be a DEX-guy with one ability score to rule them all. That has certain advantages, for sure, but it SHOULD come with a few limitations, too.
While I love the idea of having cake AND eating it too, I also believe the cake should at least be properly paid for.
If I had a player in my game deliberately choose to dump ANY ability score (and I usually do), I sometimes put them in a situation where that ability score is at least part of the solution, or at the very least, they'll struggle with the situation even more than other characters who did not dump that score. It's only fair; they got their cake, they get to eat it, they should at least pay for it occasionally.
As for the stretcher, it can hold 300 pounds but you're still carrying it, so it's still part of your load (shared with the other guy carrying it), so if you put 300 pounds on that stretcher, then you're carrying 155 pounds. That at least counts for slowing you down beyond a light load, right?
If you drag it, you're still carrying your half of the weight; there just isn't anyone else holding the other end. We could do weird math on that involving dividing the dragged portion of the weight by 5) but you're still carrying your 155 pounds.
If you lay it on the ground and drag it with a rope, now you're carrying 0 pounds (basically) and dragging 310 pounds. By the drag rules, a character with say 8 STR can drag up to 400 pounds, but it also says this:
A character can generally push or drag along the ground as much as five times his maximum load. Favorable conditions can double these numbers, and bad circumstances can reduce them by half or more.
So if you go off the road, a GM might say this is unfavorable conditions, reducing it to half (200 pounds).
Also, clearly the math is a 5x multiplier, so we could easily apply that to light loads, medium loads, and heavy loads. In fact, I'm fairly sure we SHOULD do this - if we don't, it means a weakling could drag 400 pounds without slowing down at all which strikes me as definitely not intended (though not directly RAW).
So, at 8 STR, light load is 26 pounds, dragged is 130 pounds. Or the weird math is calculate the load carried normally and then divide the dragged weight by 5 to add to carried load to calculate when the character is slowed down by dragging too much. For example, if you have 8 STR and carry 18 pounds of gear, you are 8 pounds under your capacity for a light load. That means you can drag 40 more pounds and count as a light load (40/5 = 8, 8+18 = 26). Not RAW, but makes total sense (without it, that 8-pound weakling can drag a 400# stone exactly as fast as Hercules can drag the same stone, and he can even do it while wearing 26 pounds of armor and gear, all of which makes no sense).
what are you carrying OP
and what is your STR stat
STR 11, carrying a bastard sword, light crossbow, and rapier and wearing studded leather + clothing of some kind and a backpack. Any more than that, and I'm going into medium encumbrance. I know that technically I could drop the bastard sword, but considering the fact that my first two feats are Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) and Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword), it would make no sense to not carry it.
Fortunately, I don't need torches or sleeping stuff, since I'm playing an android and am thus immune to fatigue and can see very well in the dark. Unfortunately, I still need food and water, and I'd like to carry a set of Artisan's Tools.
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Mules and donkeys are 8 Gp
And low strength does not mean low charisma.
Swashbuckler, Sorcerer, Bard, Oracle, Dexiden, Mysterious stranger gunslingers.
Even low non-cha classes don't have to dump their charisma, just not buy it up. If you've dumped both your strength and charisma, then you're likely to have enough points to have more in int to buy the one rank in handle animal, and since handling an animal is a DC 10 (to get it do do something it knows like carry a pack and be led on a lead) then you should be fine. If you've dumped int, strength and charisma I don't have much pity for you (unless you're rolling and got three + less than 10 scores, then your GM is just an ass for making you keep those scores)
Buy a hunting cat, they are only 100gp.
Saddlebags.
Totally awesome, combat capable pack-kitty.
I use a panther as my characters 'purse'. (STR 7 Swashbuckler)
Definitely get an animal with saddlebags. A riding dog works well, or a hunting cat as alexd1976 suggested. You don't need a lot of handle animal to get a dog with non-combat gear to follow you around as long as you keep it out of combat. Handy haversack is really good once you can afford it. If you are a rogue, sleight of hand extra gear into the barbarian's backpack, and steal it back after the session?
You don't need to Handle Animal you pack horse/donkey/whatever. just someone in the party. So buy the mule, then let the cavalier, ir druid, or hunter, or ranger, or whoever in the party has Handle Animal or decent Cha handle it for you.
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Hirelings stupid enough are hard to come by. :)A very stupid but obedient unskilled hireling?An unskilled hireling can carry your stuff for just 1gp per day.Most places that adventureres go to however fall into the category of. "You're not paying me enough for this!"
*Insert joke about how easy they are to find in ______, based upon the reader's predjudices such as sports/politics etc.*
Hirelings stupid enough are hard to come by. :)A very stupid but obedient unskilled hireling?An unskilled hireling can carry your stuff for just 1gp per day.Most places that adventureres go to however fall into the category of. "You're not paying me enough for this!"
Nah, it's an optimized npc hireling: 20/14/14/7/7/7 - would you ever hire any other kind?
Nah, it's an optimized npc hireling: 20/14/14/7/7/7 - would you ever hire any other kind?Hirelings stupid enough are hard to come by. :)A very stupid but obedient unskilled hireling?An unskilled hireling can carry your stuff for just 1gp per day.Most places that adventureres go to however fall into the category of. "You're not paying me enough for this!"
Can I play the hireling?
Can I play the hireling?Nah, it's an optimized npc hireling: 20/14/14/7/7/7 - would you ever hire any other kind?Hirelings stupid enough are hard to come by. :)A very stupid but obedient unskilled hireling?An unskilled hireling can carry your stuff for just 1gp per day.Most places that adventureres go to however fall into the category of. "You're not paying me enough for this!"
Sure, those are valid human ability scores on a 15-point buy. Play away!
Sure, those are valid human ability scores on a 15-point buy. Play away!Can I play the hireling?Nah, it's an optimized npc hireling: 20/14/14/7/7/7 - would you ever hire any other kind?Hirelings stupid enough are hard to come by. :)A very stupid but obedient unskilled hireling?An unskilled hireling can carry your stuff for just 1gp per day.Most places that adventureres go to however fall into the category of. "You're not paying me enough for this!"
If I wear the backpack full of gear on the front would that count as armor? And a torch is just a club right? With a sticky end?
What class are you, and what is your stat array? And why are you even bothering with bastard sword since you've only made a minimal investment in strength?I said EARLY LEVELS! There is no magic item inexpensive enough to belong on a LEVEL 1 CHARACTER SHEET. Wands of Ant Haul, Muleback Cords, and other similar ideas are NOT RELEVANT TO THIS QUESTION! Also, I already addressed the reasons why Handle Animal + donkey is not an ideal option here! At least TRY to understand the problem before giving me advice on how to fix it!
/rantNow, the stretcher idea has merit. Mechanically, it sounds like exactly what I was looking for. I'm going to look it up right now.
I have a quite ingenious build in mind, but it will take a few levels to come into its own. My first level is a dip into Swashbuckler, and the rest of my levels will be Fighter (Two-Weapon Warrior). At Level 3, I'll pick up Slashing Grace and Two-Weapon Fighting. At that point, I'll be able to wield the bastard sword in my main hand and a rapier in the off hand. Once I get to Improved TWF, I'll be able to dual-wield bastard swords. I would do better to play a human or half-elf, so I could get the weapon proficiency for free, but I REALLY like the android and I have a rather rare opportunity to play one right now, so I'll swallow the feat loss.
I'm hauling around the bastard sword from level 1 because I'm going to be playing an AP, and those are notorious for never having the gear you need when you need it, so I'll be carrying that sucker around until I find a way to get a pair of masterworks (Also, that's one reason I'm going to haul around artisan's tools. If the game won't let me buy bastard swords, I'll make them myself!). In addition, it justifies the fact that I'll be taking feats specifically designed to let me use a bastard sword. It makes no sense to be getting better and better at using a weapon you don't even own.
My current stat array is Str 11, Dex 19, Con 15, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 7. I don't feel like it's partiularly lopsided or min-maxy. It's a pretty standard-looking array for a SAD melee type. I know I could move the two points from Int to Str, but that's not a great move in the long run, since my Str score pretty much only governs my carrying capacity, and thus has diminishing returns as I level up. Plus I'm playing an android, and that +2 to Int is basically free. I'm only having this problem because I'm trying to make do with starting wealth.
I'm suddenly reminded of Minmax from www.goblinscomic.org/
Sorry, back on topic. What AP are you playing?
The pack mule should work alright for most the things you need as long as you don't need it to do anything crazy (like fight or climb a ladder).
EDIT: and you can always cook and eat the mule if you need food.
Wrath of the Righteous. I honestly have no clue what to expect, but I've played the early parts of Rise of the Runelords and Reign of Winter, and in both cases, I found myself really wishing for a better global economy.
Granted, I've never tried looking for Bastard Swords. They might be easier to find than the weapons I usually wield... I don't know.
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How are you going to dual wield bastard swords? Does your group allow Effortless Lace?
Even if they do - if you're going to burn a feat on exotic prof. anyway - you should just go for Sawtoothed Sabres. It's the only weapon you can combo TWF with Slashing Grace without Effortless Lace. (Say that 10x fast!)
Frankly - a Str of 11 isn't that low. I was picturing a 7-8.
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I'm curious what swashbuckler is getting you out of that build.
A dip in Swash (or Daring Champ Cavalier - though Swash is a better dip) is the only way to get Slashing Grace to work for anything but dueling blades. Plus - even with a dumped Cha, a point of panache for parrying is nothing to sniff at.
Okay, so Swashbuckler gets you Swashbuckler Finesse, which lets you apply weapon finesse to any one-handed piercing weapon, rather than just a list of particular ones. Slashing Grace expands any class feature that uses one-handed piercing weapons to one-handed slashing weapons that you have weapon focus in, and adds dex to damage in place of strength for such weapons. With the exotic weapon proficiency, a bastard sword is a one-handed slashing weapon. Once you get Improved TWF, you can use two one-handed slashing weapons with the same penatlies as if the off-hand weapon was light.
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Ummm...I'm going to keep an archived copy of this post. Just because of so much it would be beneath etiquette to mention. You do understand the penalties involved in trying to dual wield bastard swords? You're looking at a -4 to both hits even with the feats.
Two-Weapon Warrior fixes this problem at 11th level.
Ummm...I'm going to keep an archived copy of this post. Just because of so much it would be beneath etiquette to mention. You do understand the penalties involved in trying to dual wield bastard swords? You're looking at a -4 to both hits even with the feats.Two-Weapon Warrior fixes this problem at 11th level.
You're starting to see the picture. This build starts off slow, but in the long run it'll really pay off... assuming I can survive the first few levels.
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Once you get Improved TWF, you can use two one-handed slashing weapons with the same penalties as if the off-hand weapon was light.
That sentence isn't quite right, and even as Imbicatus pointed out, it's the Two Weapon Warrior archetype that fixes this, at level 11. It's going to be a long time before you're going to be swinging 2 one handed weapons in tandem, unless you go the sawtooth saber route.
Edit - Although I will admit this is more useful in a Wrath of the Righteous game over most other APs. You will probably actually see a fair amount of high level play.
Oh, whoops. I thought for sure there was a way to do that sooner. I hate to bring this up, but how did the Drizzt build manage TWF with scimitars?