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I think people are missing the important line in the rebuild rules:
Before you level up a character for the first time, you may change any aspect of it except its Pathfinder Society Number.
That means that all changes are made at level 1. That's the part the keeps the 3/4 BAB from having Power Attack and that's the part that prevents the silly 7th level rebuilds. You need a clearly defined 1st level character, which is then leveled with XP number 4+.
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Use xp to get through the level 6 doldrums...That's a big level for some classes! Rangers, Monks, Fighters, and any class that gets new spell levels.
Its not a matter of what you get, its a matter of what you can play.
Level 6 is the level where there are the least number of scenarios available.
-You can't play the plethora of 1-5s.
-You can't play the "nobody ever gets to these" so they're open 7-11s
If one group starts to advance their level 5-7s and is filling out the table with the level 3s, the level 3s can burn through a good chunk of the available 3-7s. Do that on a couple of characters and that bottleneck can look a little sparse.
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I think people are missing the important line in the rebuild rules:
Before you level up a character for the first time, you may change any aspect of it except its Pathfinder Society Number.That means that all changes are made at level 1. That's the part the keeps the 3/4 BAB from having Power Attack and that's the part that prevents the silly 7th level rebuilds. You need a clearly defined 1st level character, which is then leveled with XP number 4+.
Agreed. This is how I read it: "first level up," is going from level 1 to level 2. Furious Thrune's Rebuild versus Retrain is a good distinction & the fact that these are Pathfinder rules not PFS is also helpful.
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What Kinevon is proposing is a different issue entirely, and is not legal under any rule set.Could you explain what I am proposing, other than building my GM credit blob at the appropriate level, possibly with no time to spend working it up level-by level at the table, and what is illegal?I addressed your exact question in the comment directly before the one you chose to quote.
Just so I'm not misunderstanding you, I'll use a hypothetical. Say you use 6 level's worth of GM credit to make a 6th level Human Fighter. This character has a BAB of +6, and has 8 feats.
This character finally begins play with Lunge, Vital Strike, Hammer the Gap, and Punch Through, all of which require a BAB of +6. This character has not utilized the retraining rules from Ultimate Campaign.
In your opinion is this character legal?
No idea, since I don't have the various level and feat (or other) requirements for all the feats memorized. I use HL, and try to do it one level at a time.
I don't even recognize Punch Through, and I am fairly confident that I would never build a PC using either Lunge or Vital Strike. And my archer builds don't use Hammer the Gap, although I have seen it used.
But, more seriously, I try to make sure my PC builds are legal at every level, but, and this is where you seem to be missing my point, what do you do if you are taking one of your hypothetical GM blobs, and building it up to use at a game because it wound up that you were needed as a player, not a GM, and you don't, currently, have a built PC of the appropriate level for the game being played?
You can't take a long time, otherwise the game won't go, or will run out of time to run. And you are building it on paper, instead of HL or PC Gen, but you can't remember, without spending too much time on it, if you can take Weapon Focus (or some other feat) at first level on your Unchained Rogue. Whatcha do?
And, to Jessex, what if my PC were the only way to make a legal table, because you only have two pother players, or there are no pregens in tier?
I have a third level GM blob, currently set to be a Human Bard, but nothing set up but his number, and the credits he has accrued to date. To be honest, I suspect you wouldn't let him play at the level he will actually get built to, because that will be 13th or 14th level, as he is my GM credit destination for all the levels of Emerald Spire... No matter how I build him, he won't be something you would feel was a "real" PC.
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You're avoiding my question. I included all relevant information, but let me shorten it further:
You have Xth level Human Fighter with BAB of +X. You've given it X+2 feats, each of which requires a BAB of +X.
X > 1
Is this character legal?
Let's answer this first, and then we can move on to other hypotheticals.
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You can't take a long time, otherwise the game won't go, or will run out of time to run. And you are building it on paper, instead of HL or PC Gen, but you can't remember, without spending too much time on it, if you can take Weapon Focus (or some other feat) at first level on your Unchained Rogue. Whatcha do?
You get your act together and do your paperwork before the game, so you're not wasting people's time.
Or, you sit out. Or play a pre-gen.
Unless you're suggesting that you would actually design the PC to fit a given scenario or group of players, and so wait until game time to do it? Because that's a bit silly, given how expensive retraining is and how short a given scenario is.
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You can't take a long time, otherwise the game won't go, or will run out of time to run. And you are building it on paper, instead of HL or PC Gen, but you can't remember, without spending too much time on it, if you can take Weapon Focus (or some other feat) at first level on your Unchained Rogue. Whatcha do?You get your act together and do your paperwork before the game, so you're not wasting people's time.
Or, you sit out. Or play a pre-gen.
Unless you're suggesting that you would actually design the PC to fit a given scenario or group of players, and so wait until game time to do it? Because that's a bit silly, given how expensive retraining is and how short a given scenario is.
@ GM Lamplighter: So, you didn't bring any of your PCs with, because you were scheduled to run. Your game doesn't go off, because something happened, leaving you with 4 people there, total. Whatcha gonna do?
Other than copping an attitude. Your approach, if it is anything like you post here, is extremely hostile. Maybe you aren't that way in real life. I seem to recall, back when you were posting as a VC, that you were fairly reasonable. Now, you come across as a BadWrongFun type of poster, do it your way or the highway.
@Nefreet: I try to build legal PCs, and keep them legal. Sometimes I fail. I am struggling with a couple of PCs now, mainly because the build rules are so opaque that I built the PC wrong to begin with. I have corrected the mistakes I know of, but I am fairly sure it is still in error. Which is why my 3rd level APG Summoner is going to become an Unchained Summoner, but I haven't reached that far in reading Unchained yet.
And, in addition, I find that, according to ETV, at least one of my high level PCs may get disallowed at some tables. Are fauchards polearms? Then again, due to the ways things work in my neck of the woods, I probably have both the highest level PCs, and the most GM stars, including both our current VC, our 3 previous VCs and our semi-rotating cast of VLs. Not even sure if we currently have any VLs, to be honest.
Let's see, my 12th level archer doesn't have any ITSes, because he was last used or GM credited when the Ruby Phoenix Tournament was still one of the new things, so no such thing as an ITS yet. Would that disqualify him from being a legal PC, since he has no ITSes?
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THIS! And let me state very clearly that if you use this excuse more than once with me you are going to get the stink eye. And building a 13th level character on the fly? I think not. There is simply no way you are doing that right. Show up with a legal char for that sort of event or you don't get to play.Kinevon, if you made a mistake because you were in a hurry, nobody's going to hang you for it. It happens to everyone. What matters is that you rectify the error when you find it.
But if you're advocating keeping a character illegal, after you've discovered the error, that's not going to fly.
You might want to take a step back, take a deep breath, and count to ten. Right now, you are coming off so hostile, to me, that I wouldn't want to play at your Confirmation table with my perfectly legal Core Sorcerer.
Or my perfectly legal 16th level Fighter (Polearm Master 15)/Unchained Rogue (1). I only earned that 16th level recently, and am still working on putting that level together, since it is a change from where he has been going, from pure Fighter to multi-classed horror. Not to mention all the money he has not spent, for a couple of chronicles.
Do you allow the players to have their PCs make purchases at the beginning of the game, or only what the PC already owns from previous ITSes/Chronicles?
Me, though, I try to keep my PCs fully legal, but am not perfect with the supporting paperwork. I also try not to give in to temptation on things like the Unchained rebuilds, just trying to stay with what is defined as legal to rebuild.
Then again, rebuilds are also why my Dhampir PC is in limbo, and has been since the Undead Lord, which he was, got banned. He is at 3 XP, so it means that what ever I make him, he will remain. But all my play experience with him was as an Undead Lord Cleric, and I am hesitant to take a pig in the poke for a Boon race PC, with my only boon for that race. So, there he sits, swapping classes and builds every time I look at him. Currently, as of his last rebuild, he is a Lore Warden Fighter. Once I finish reading the Unchained classes, he may become an Unchained Monk or Rogue. Decisions.
Note: My only 1st level rebuildable PC at higher than 2nd level, which was rebuilt at 7th to change from Fighter (Archer) to Fighter (Weapon Master) is fully legal, since he is full BAB, and nothing I took for him was illegal at the level it was taken, and he was built a level at a time.
Note: I am advocating cleaning up the language, so that it is obvious to everyone, for how a 1st level rebuild should be done.
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Ironically we have similar experiences with Dhampirs, and with Fauchards, so I sympathize with you.
And if you build your GM credit blob up one level at a time, cool, that answers my questions from earlier. We're on the same page there, too.
And half of my retired PCs don't have ITSs, either. Just keep in mind that if you play any of those characters going forward, their next purchases should be included on a brand new ITS, but none of your old items are required to be on one.
And I can relate to being one of the more experienced PFSers in my area. Although many people have been around longer, as of now I don't think anyone's GMed more games than I (I'm at 190+), and our VC is the type that regularly asks me for Rules Questions.
All those expectations can be pressuring.
I have one suggestion that may help you: Ditch HeroLab.
Yes, I hate HeroLab, that's been well established before, but I actually truly believe, in this instance, it is the reason you are having a hard time. It sounds like you've been relying on the program too much to do everything for you, but when it comes to actually putting pen to paper you've been having trouble. Why don't you, at least for a few weeks, give HeroLab a break. Pick up a book and read it when you have a question about an ability. Handwrite a brand new character sheet. Expose yourself to the rules without referencing them from an error-ridden piece of software. Our experiences seem so similar, but the one drastic difference is that I refuse to use HeroLab.
Give it a try and see if it helps.
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I don't know, call me weird, but the idea of throwing together a character on the fly out of a blob of GM credit instead of playing a pregen in the situation you suggested, Kinevon is just foreign to me.
If my table doesn't happen, and I don't have a character I can play in the one that is running, I'm gonna play whatever pregen makes the most sense and apply it to the next character I decide to create rather than force myself to make on the fly decisions about what I'm going to do with my hoarded credit blob. Perhaps you are a much better person than me, but that still doesn't allow you to ignore the rules of how to legally build a character.
If you did this accidentally and you are looking at having to spend a lot of prestige fixing your character, then I feel for you. My suggestion is to talk to your VC, and get approval to fix the character. Learn from it and don't repeat the mistake. Just don't come on the boards and then get mad at people who point out the potential problems that would arise if what you seem to want (the legitimizing of doing what you are suggesting) can bring to the game. If people seem to be attacking you, it is because others see what you are doing as a loophole that, if legitimized, will cause issues in the future.
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Kinevon, you are right that the language probably needs to be made more clear. It would help to use different terminology ("retraining" vs "rebuilding") for the two different modifications under discussion. I think we probably all agree on that.
Until then, the safest course of action is to go with the more conservative interpretation that the rest of us are suggesting is the correct interpretation.
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I don't know, call me weird, but the idea of throwing together a character on the fly out of a blob of GM credit instead of playing a pregen in the situation you suggested, Kinevon is just foreign to me.
If my table doesn't happen, and I don't have a character I can play in the one that is running, I'm gonna play whatever pregen makes the most sense and apply it to the next character I decide to create rather than force myself to make on the fly decisions about what I'm going to do with my hoarded credit blob. Perhaps you are a much better person than me, but that still doesn't allow you to ignore the rules of how to legally build a character.
If you did this accidentally and you are looking at having to spend a lot of prestige fixing your character, then I feel for you. My suggestion is to talk to your VC, and get approval to fix the character. Learn from it and don't repeat the mistake. Just don't come on the boards and then get mad at people who point out the potential problems that would arise if what you seem to want (the legitimizing of doing what you are suggesting) can bring to the game. If people seem to be attacking you, it is because others see what you are doing as a loophole that, if legitimized, will cause issues in the future.
Did you actually read my latest posts in this thread? Please stop attacking me, it is neither germane nor appropriate.
Now, to answer some of your questions, on why to fast-build a PC?
1) I would rather play my pwn PC, built to my specs, than a pregen, if possible.
2) There are games where there is no level appropriate pregen.
Pregens come at 1, 4 & 7.
Along with scenarios, you have modules, which only cover a 3 level range.
1-2, fine
1-3, okay
2-4, sure.
3-5, yeah.
4-6, ugly but possible
5-7, a little over the top
6-8, sure
7-9, last chance.
8-10, sorry, out of luck for pregens
9-11, nope
10-12, not today
11-13, no Ruby Phoenix for you
12-14, long gone
13-15, stuck in the Tomb, I guess
14-16, you see where I am going.
15-17, long gone from pregenland
16-18, running out of modules, still no pregens available
So, what would you do if you had a 13th level GM blob PC, and an opportunity to play a 13-15, and were needed to provide that 4th player, since no pregens means that no 4th player = no table? Curren t plans for that PC is to leave him unplayed until I finish my Emerald Spire run, he gets all the credits, so all the land plots. Current plan is for a Human Bard, but there is some time to go before I finish running ES, and I might change my mind along the way; or that hypothetical high level table might need something besides a support character to pull off the game. Odds are, at that level, that I would be playing follow-up modules with the same set of players, so...
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You're avoiding my question. I included all relevant information, but let me shorten it further:
You have Xth level Human Fighter with BAB of +X. You've given it X+2 feats, each of which requires a BAB of +X.
X > 1
Is this character legal?
Let's answer this first, and then we can move on to other hypotheticals.
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Kinevon, I don't think dwayne was trying to attack you. His post is relatively polite. There have been a couple of posts that were a bit unfriendly upthread, but most of us are trying to be patient, I think.
As to your question of what I would do if I was in the situation you describe...
I would build a fighter. Those are the easiest class to build on the fly, in my opinion. I would build it exactly as I described earlier in this thread. I would pick out all of the feat trees that I wanted her to have, and then build the character. I could probably manage a pretty legit character that way.
I would make sure that all of my feat choices were legal choices for the 13th-level version of that character, and not worry about what level she took each feat. I would do that to save time, and I would tell the GM that is what I was doing. At the end of the scenario, I would go back and find out how many of those feats I would have needed to retrain into using the Ultimate Campaign rules. And then I would pay the Prestige and gold to accomplish that. At 13th level, I will have plenty of both, I'm sure. I would ask the GM to sign off on the chronicle that the retraining was done.
And I wouldn't worry about it any more. :)
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I regularly build my characters on the fly (I believe Fox has witnessed me doing this at least once) if a table I had planned on running has fallen through or if a character isn't in my stack of stuff I bring to the FLGS. (My wife "helps" me organize sometimes.)
Pick an easy class, choose a concept, make sure the GM knows what your doing any why, and don't let yourself get distracted by excess choices.
Fighter, Wizards, Magus and alchemists also tend to be easy for me to do on the fly, but avoid the pet classes. (I spent twice the time last time building my mount than my character.)
Remember have fun, and as long as it isn't against the rules and your local GM isn't bothered by it, who cares what people on the forums think?
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Now, to answer some of your questions, on why to fast-build a PC?
1) I would rather play my pwn PC, built to my specs, than a pregen, if possible.
2) There are games where there is no level appropriate pregen.Pregens come at 1, 4 & 7.
Along with scenarios, you have modules, which only cover a 3 level range.
1-2, fine
1-3, okay
2-4, sure.
3-5, yeah.
4-6, ugly but possible
5-7, a little over the top
6-8, sure
7-9, last chance.
8-10, sorry, out of luck for pregens
9-11, nope
10-12, not today
11-13, no Ruby Phoenix for you
12-14, long gone
13-15, stuck in the Tomb, I guess
14-16, you see where I am going.
15-17, long gone from pregenland
16-18, running out of modules, still no pregens availableSo, what would you do if you had a 13th level GM blob PC, and an opportunity to play a 13-15, and were needed to provide that 4th player, since no pregens means that no 4th player = no table? Curren t plans for that PC is to leave him unplayed until I finish my Emerald Spire run, he gets all the credits, so all the land plots. Current plan is for a Human Bard, but there is some time to go before I finish running ES, and I might change my mind along the way; or that hypothetical high level table might need something besides a support character to pull off the game. Odds are, at that level, that I would be playing follow-up modules with the same set of players, so...
I'm not touching the other bits of the conversation, because you've answerd everything you need to and people are still stuck on that, and I wouldn't want to touch that conversation with a ten fot pole.
But regarding the quoted section, I don't think there are really that many runs of level 13+ modules that just happen spontaneously. In my experience, once I've gotten past 11 most everything has been planned out pretty well in advance, including communicating with other players about what bases are being covered, eliminating the need to try and build something on the fly. If I was another player for the module, I would rather try to reschedule the module for a later date than have another player try to whip up a high level character on the fly.
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@ GM Lamplighter: So, you didn't bring any of your PCs with, because you were scheduled to run. Your game doesn't go off, because something happened, leaving you with 4 people there, total. Whatcha gonna do?
YMMV, but what I *won't* do is build an illegal character just so the game runs. "Play play play" was abolished years ago, because it caused exactly this sort of abuse and was bad for the campaign.
I seem to recall, back when you were posting as a VC, that you were fairly reasonable. Now, you come across as a BadWrongFun type of poster, do it your way or the highway.
This is more a wrong "rules" than a wrong "fun" issue, but I concede your point. When I represented the campaign officially, I tended to try and give people the benefit of the doubt and be as diplomatic as possible. Now, that only happens when it's deserved.
And yes, I have always advocated "do it the campaign's way, or the highway". (More appropriately, "...or a home game.") You're advocating making illegal characters, and trying to convince us it is OK. It's not.
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You might want to take a step back, take a deep breath, and count to ten. Right now, you are coming off so hostile, to me, that I wouldn't want to play at your Confirmation table with my perfectly legal Core Sorcerer.THIS! And let me state very clearly that if you use this excuse more than once with me you are going to get the stink eye. And building a 13th level character on the fly? I think not. There is simply no way you are doing that right. Show up with a legal char for that sort of event or you don't get to play.Kinevon, if you made a mistake because you were in a hurry, nobody's going to hang you for it. It happens to everyone. What matters is that you rectify the error when you find it.
But if you're advocating keeping a character illegal, after you've discovered the error, that's not going to fly.
Wow. Just wow. You got called out on a completely outrageous statement and no one supported what you wanted to do. Note that anyone can go back and actually read the post of yours that started this exchange, which did include several requests for clarification.
Now you try this aggrieved party stuff. Well if you are ever in Chicago Do keep in mind that you don't want to play at my table.
In the future when you are in the wrong simply own it and admit it don't try and make it out like other people are wrong for pointing that fact out.
No, I asked for clarification. Someone took the time to answer that. You, and several others, didn't let my questions or hypotheticals drop, and, in addition, your specific responses were outright hostile, both to me, and to people who are willing to question you.
The free retraining rule clearly does not apply to characters with more than 3 xp and if I audited your character and found out that you had done such a rebuild you would not play that character at my table.
Both hostile and, blatantly, incorrect. That is why they changed the rule to played at 2nd level or higher, because, sometimes, you just put GM credit on the PC, and it is still eligible for the 1st level retrain at a higher level.
Others, however, managed to point out the correct part of the text that put my concerns at rest.
My response was more in the "We're human, sometimes misteaks happen." Others responded with "Let's work on fixing the mistakes." You responded with "I would never let you play at my table." With a response like that, I will make sure, when I visit my family in the Chicago area, that I avoid your tables at all costs. That way, we are both happy.
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StuffKinevon, the way I interpret this is:
1) Rebuild your character BEFORE applying chronicles. Rebuild your level one at level one.
2) Apply chronicles sequentially. In HeroLab, add enough to get one level, then level your character up. Don't add all your chronicles at one, as it allows for some illegal option.
3) Once you've completed adding all your chronicles, buy equipment and start playing.This is my interpretation. The level one rebuild rules, as it applies to GM blobs, is not an inappropriate advantage.
To the OP, Jayson MF Kip - the same thing applies. Your rogue won't have a +1 BAB until level 2, so you don't get to rebuild him for free. As for your other hypothetical, yes, you'd have to pay for that assuming you had something else. A level 3 fighter, non-human, could have Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack at level 3, leaving your level 4 feat for Weapon Specialization.
All of this, of course, is my opinion. I don't know of any ruling anywhere that backs this up, this is just what I feel the intention of the process is.
I hope this helps.
Chris,
The answer is in the free level rebuild text, actually, see the italicized text in the quote below..
At the start of a Pathfinder’s career, you are allowed to adjust your character before settling in for the long haul. Before you level up a character for the first time, you may change any aspect of it except its Pathfinder Society Number. Changes may only be made between adventures and before playing as a character above 1st level. Any exceptions will be noted in the Pathfinder Society FAQ. You are able to keep all treasure, Prestige Points, special boons, and XP that you have earned and apply them to the character once you retrain as long as the character meets the criteria above. You are only able to retrain into a legal race.
And, yes, it can be a pain, in a program like HeroLab, to make sure you are making a legal-without-retraining PC, as it is ugly to just sit on the chronicles, and not enter them when received, for a PC, since that can lead to other bookkeeping issues.
I just have a bunch of level 2 blobs, right now. The have legal builds, but none of them, that haven't played after reaching 2nd level, are married to their builds.
Not to mention all the legal free retrains for higher level Barbarians, Monks, Rogues and Summoners going around right now. And my Dhampir is still in retrain limbo, because he is in the "Cannot be used as what he has previously been played as, since Undead Lord has been banned, but the next time he is played, other than expensive-in-PP costs rebuilds, he is stuck as that. Which means a boon chronicle race PC may be screwed because of sunning out of room to look at options, and how they play out with his differences."