hi all,
we have a 7th level cleric in our party who wants to build a brandy distillery on a plot of land he owns. he has craft + profession skills to support this endeavor. he has also has the leadership feat to hire and gain employees and followers to run the business while out adventuring. so......
the gm has asked me to help him streamline this cost/ future revenue formula. the pc is really getting uber-involved in this project, almost to the exclusion of the main campaign. we get together once a week to play and really can't spend precious game time talking about the ins and outs of the liquor business. we also feel that he should be able to achieve any/all ambitions he has. the rules in the ultimate campaign are very involved. i have also briefly read the alternative rules with "kingdom building" and felt that was too much.
what advice for simple rules on weekly production/ revenue?
do you add cohort/employees craft to your craft check and take 10/20?
the pc wants to make the finest brandy in the region..whats the cost of a bottle of brandy? what would the finest cost? why are the other 5 players at the table sleeping?.....
any help would be greatly appreciated
Yeah, don't use the Kingdom Building rules. Those are inappropriate for what you're trying to do.
Instead, look into Ultimate Campaign's downtime rules. They are essentially the official rules for running a business in game (as well as a bunch of other non-adventury things). They show how to run a business, the benefits of doing so, how having followers can effect that, and the consequences of being away adventuring for too long.
Big question... is he going to have the downtime needed to get things running, and will he be there to run the buisness?
The rules for what you want to do are in Ultimate Campaign. The particular fluff bits like the last few sentences.... you're on your own.
we hope he gets this up and running and continues to adventure with us. he has said out of game that because of his backstory, he would consider owning his own land and brandy business an end of adventuring super-win. we just want to keep the story going and not spend too much in game time on this. the pc is drawing up blueprints and making an employee handbook lol.....
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If you're not using the rules in Ultimate Campaign, go back to the standard skills section. He makes a check with Profession: Brewer each week; half that check is the amount he makes in a week. Figure his brewery business represents Masterwork tools and figure his assistants are all using Aid Another with the possibility of 3 helping him at one time since that's the full amount of folks he could reasonably fit into a workshop at one time.
So: figuring a Cleric with a Profession: Brewer +15 (Class Skill +3, Wis Bonus +5, 7 ranks at level 7) and add in a Guidance spell +1, x3 Aid Another bonuses +6 and Masterwork tools +2 for a total bonus of +24. He takes 10, gets 34, and takes home 17 GP in profit each week. Handwave it and say that this profit includes paying his employees, covering overhead, marketing etc.
If he wants to make "masterwork" brandy the work it like a Craft check. Set the DC at 20 (or if he wants to make more of the stuff, DC 30) and multiply his Profession check by the DC. SO long as his check hits the DC (taking a 10, it hits both) he produces X amount of SP worth of the item he's crafting in a week.
Fine wine is listed at 10 GP/bottle, so let's use that as our basis for the brandy. If we use the Profession check result above of 34 and set a DC of 30 for this crafting check, we have a total result of 1020 SP worth of brandy made in a week. This brewery somehow manages to churn out the equivalent of 10.2 bottles of some of the finest brandy around/week.
Not too shabby.
Figure like with crafting he's spending half the cost in raw materials (51 GP) and again handwave the employees' salaries into these costs and then have him sell his bottles for 51 GP profit/week. If you want no muss/no fuss rules to quickly decide what this player's doing with his downtime each week, there you go.
Hopefully though the GM aslo recognizes how into this the player is and rewards them with more than money. Maybe the brewery attracts the attention of a cult of Cayden Cailean or a vengeful water nixie is cheesed off that you're tapping her waters. This brewery could be the springboard to an entire campaign!
ty mark hoover
i'm wondering if the above mentioned profit is going to satisfy the time and effort the player is going to put into this endeavor. i agree that the rolepaying perks might outweigh the small amount of income he will make.
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we get together once a week to play and really can't spend precious game time talking about the ins and outs of the liquor business.
I agree with your philosophy. If I were you I would create a Play by Post document online, perhaps on Google Drive, for the specifics of his business. It would be a log of what funds he allocated, who he hired, and what he intends to do. You're GM could do things like roll random encounters for him too, like:
/roll 1d20 -> 1
"Your contact for ____ ingredient was killed."
With this in place, he is free to get as involved as he wants with his business idea, without taking session time.
As others have said, use the downtime system from ultimate campaign for this. Theres even a specific example of a brewery in the buildings/organizations section. Also, using managers, means he can have the business running (after he gets it going) and still adventure. There are specific rules for it. I think this is the best middle ground between ignoring the player's deisire to run a business and allowing it to dominate entire sessions of the game.
One suggestion I have is have your distillery obsessed player do most of his business stuff with the GM via email or something. Not when everyone is wanting to play as a group.
The other is to the GM. Let him do it if you are prepared to run it. If you don't want to use ultimate campaign, with which I am unfamiliar, a few suggestions. Most businesses take a time to start showing profit. 2 years at least.
In a zero inflation environment, rate of return on investment will be lower. He has the skills to make it work, so say he will eventually make a good profit.
Say he plows 10,000 GP into setting it up, including losses made in the first 2 years. Say by year 4 it may return 1,500 GPs per annum net profit. He can likely sell the business for a lot more than he put into it too. Its hardly going to spoil the campaign.
Unchained has a nice set of rules for using Profession to run a business like this. Easier than the ones in Ultimate Campaign.
You can also see about getting other group members involved. As the adventurers are I assume friends, he may get them to help with the labor, planning, etc. It's a lot more fun for other players if they're involved too.
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Rules aside, I think the player and the GM both need to clearly communicate what is expected and wanted.
I get having a complex background and developing a real personality for a character, and honestly only someone who was crazy would choose to be an adventurer. But at the end of the day, this is a game and if you have made a character that doesn't want to participate in the events the game is about, you have seriously screwed up. If the player can't amend the characters personality so he would want to participate and/or the GM can't provide some additional hooks (not always possible to tailor campaigns for every special snowflake) then the player needs to make a new character and let the brandy maker retire.
If the character wants to continue, then the next question is if the player wants/expects a mechanical advantage from the business or is just interested in the flavor. Generally speaking, I am willing to spend a small, but significant amount of gold on flavor, and I'm cool with not getting any appreciable benefit from them. If that is the case, then this can be handled as flavor. The player, the GM or some combination can periodically describe how the business is growing etc. without it having any mechanics or rules behind it. If it doesn't effect the wealth the character has to invest in personal equipment, then from a game perspective it doesn't matter a whole lot.
If the player really wants and expects a mechanical advantage, if successful, then rules, either ultimate campaign or some other system will have to be used, but first finding out want is expected is critical.
Unchained has a nice set of rules for using Profession to run a business like this. Easier than the ones in Ultimate Campaign.
need to find the unchained version of this
ty for suggestion
Downtime rules are super easy.
Step 1) Purchase or build your business' primary building.
Step 2) Calculate the business' modifiers based on the sum of the rooms that make it up (and if the PC is present, add his relevant skill modifiers +10).
Step 3) Roll checks daily (or take 10) to determine how much profit the business earns for you, either in downtime capital (favors, resources, etc.) or in gold.
Step 4) If the GM chooses, he can spice up non-adventuring downtime by rolling for downtime events for the player's business(es).
After your one time setup, it can literally be as simple as "I earn Xgp when I'm not there, and Ygp when I am there." If you want it to be more involved, you also have the room for that.
You can also see about getting other group members involved. As the adventurers are I assume friends, he may get them to help with the labor, planning, etc. It's a lot more fun for other players if they're involved too.
yeah, we want to aid/ help him as much as possible. the last two sessions have already proved that he is really engrossed in this new project. he spends table time planning the land plot, blueprints, planning names and labels for his product. as much as we want to help him bring his brandy dreams to fruition, we also need him to concentrate on the task at hand while adventuring.
i'm sure we can find a balance between the two since we are all friends and want the best for all our characters
Wow, and people got annoyed with me for debating whether or not we as spies should talk to people to see if we could use them for our goals instead of running in there and killing them.
I agree with your philosophy. If I were you I would create a Play by Post document online, perhaps on Google Drive, for the specifics of his business. It would be a log of what funds he allocated, who he hired, and what he intends to do. You're GM could do things like roll random encounters for him too, like:/roll 1d20 -> 1
"Your contact for ____ ingredient was killed."With this in place, he is free to get as involved as he wants with his business idea, without taking session time.
I like this idea. it keeps people from stepping on each others toes and the game going.
The only problem i would see is the player in question not having easy access to the net.
another question...
I believe from playing with this particular player that he probably is more interested in fame and notoriety than the meager gold he would gain from crafting booze.
Can he concentrate on gaining influence and fame instead of wealth?
His distillery is located outside the biggest city in the region. I would imagine the future plot-hooks that could emerge as his fame and influence grows. I'm sure certain groups and individuals would love to get a piece of his pie or destroy it completely.
what benefits could he hope for by crafting the world's best brandy?
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another question...
I believe from playing with this particular player that he probably is more interested in fame and notoriety than the meager gold he would gain from crafting booze.Can he concentrate on gaining influence and fame instead of wealth?
His distillery is located outside the biggest city in the region. I would imagine the future plot-hooks that could emerge as his fame and influence grows. I'm sure certain groups and individuals would love to get a piece of his pie or destroy it completely.
what benefits could he hope for by crafting the world's best brandy?
He absolutely could do this, using Ultimate Campaign's downtime rules. Rather than earning gold profit for his business, he could earn Influence capital, which can be used for calling in favors or a variety of different things (essentially representing his "fame/notoriety" and his ability to influence others within his business' settlement.
As for benefits, if he builds a stable business that turns a profit, then he could continue investing and create not only "the world's greatest brandy," but also a business empire (if he was so inclined).
Those downtime rules are damned versatile! What's more, unlike other business rules elsewhere, they are still getting lots of support, with new business, rooms, teams, feats, and spells being added every few splat books.
thanks ravingdork,
i would think he would go down the world's most interesting brandy makers route. he's been laying it on thick in every tavern in every town we have visited. "you call this brandy?!?!?...here, try some of my own batch and taste what brandy was meant to be!!!"
lol, wait till the party wants to start sleeping at his distillery. "you led the whole party of bad guys right to my front step?!?"
Sounds like there are good times to be had in your table's near future.
Seems like he has a good sense of marketing.
so by gaining influence points the character would be able to spend them to gain multiple find info checks at +5 to each roll or spend them as favors. i would imagine the favors would be limited by what the gm decides what is appropriate for the given scenario. as his fame and influence grows from his bustling brandy business, he might be able to have a controlling interest in the local politics and decision making of the city.
how is the local criminal element not going to get their hands involved?
should prove fun to roleplay out..,,
Indeed it should, but getting in on an adventurers business is problematic at best and deadly at worst. The GM will have to decide how best to go about it. I'd probably send in hired hands to scope the place out, or come to him straight out with the deal we keep our people out, in exchange for blah blah blah
so by gaining influence points the character would be able to spend them to gain multiple find info checks at +5 to each roll or spend them as favors. i would imagine the favors would be limited by what the gm decides what is appropriate for the given scenario. as his fame and influence grows from his bustling brandy business, he might be able to have a controlling interest in the local politics and decision making of the city.
Yep. Larger favors might require higher influence costs. A single point of influence is worth 30gp, so that might help as a guideline for determining whether it's enough to get someone to act.
For example, the PC needs to get past an NPC guard protecting a rival business owner's stock. The guard is not particularly loyal, and could probably be bribed to look the other way for about 120gp. However, the PC doesn't have that kind of cash on hand (it jingles too loudly during the performance of nefarious activities), so the PC gives up 4 points of influence instead, offering the guard a full year of free drinks at any of his establishments.
Alternatively, the influence might have been spent to have the guard's captain relieve him from duty for an hour, allowing the PC to get the job done, lest his wife suddenly learns about his dalliance with the PC's tavern wench.
If the PC were to run for office, he could expend large amounts of his influence capital to bribe officials, win over the public, cheat at the voting box, solicit favors from politicians, etc. This could also be reflected in the rules by having him get bonuses to his checks.
For example, if the GM ruled that the final vote came down to a public speech between the PC and a rival NPC, and that they would both need to make opposed Diplomacy checks, the PC could spend 5 points of influence to get a +5 bonus on his check (possibly having earlier supplied the crowd with free drinks of his famous brandy).
Any number of things could happen any number of different ways. The downtime rules really help to bring the game to life, making it much more than the "not-so-valiant quests of Team Murder Hobo". Having a business and investing in-game time and resources to it can really makes a player care about what happens.
how is the local criminal element not going to get their hands involved?
should prove fun to roleplay out..,,
Criminal elements could be represented in the form of downtime events that effect his business (which could be solved with roleplay or simple checks as you prefer). Such events might already exist in the rules and make a lot of sense (such as criminal activity, fire, or deadly accident), but if not, using an existing event with a different description works great! (You could use the rules for the Sickness event, but describe it as a chemical attack against your employees, for example.)
If he is out adventuring for a long period, leaving his building unprotected, he could lose it to Business Attrition. The criminal element could also be easily described here as a hostile takeover (legal or illegal) of one or more of his owned buildings.
Man, i'd love to be playing at this table. So much character investment. I don't think I can add much in terms of source materials or mechanics, but reading this gave me some ideas.
To make the "BEST" brandy in the world might require a special distilling technique, just aquiring that could be an adventure in itself.
Maybe there's some rare ingredient that would make it more potent. Is it a renewable source? Is it something you could manufacture yourself or would you need to trade for it? Does it grow in a different climate (long trade routes would be more costly and dangerous)?
Does he want the distillery to be self sufficient? Maybe when he's away they make great brandy, but while he's there, the distillery makes the limited edition perfect brandy that only the wealthiest patrons can afford?
One suggestion I have is have your distillery obsessed player do most of his business stuff with the GM via email or something. Not when everyone is wanting to play as a group.
...
This!
Also, doesn't brandy have to sit for at least a couple years to be considered decent? If he's wanting the best of the best, it's definitely a long term investment before he sees much return.
Am I the only one thinking up ridiculous NPC brandy makers and envisioning the world brandy championship as an adventure locale?
The players in my campaign have started up a three way trading company between a Gnomish village, a distant city, and a backwards island nation, each of which offers something fairly mundane, but unique, for sale. It's become a major focus of our games. But that's how we play. I'd like some monster stomping once in awhile but this is what the PCs want to do, so I let them do it. A lot of folks would find it boring, but not these guys.
Am I the only one thinking up ridiculous NPC brandy makers and envisioning the world brandy championship as an adventure locale?
Not anymore!
So Bran, is he going to be making his own base wine? Or is that one of the ingredients he's currently buying?
Rules aside, I think the player and the GM both need to clearly communicate what is expected and wanted.
I get having a complex background and developing a real personality for a character, and honestly only someone who was crazy would choose to be an adventurer. But at the end of the day, this is a game and if you have made a character that doesn't want to participate in the events the game is about, you have seriously screwed up. If the player can't amend the characters personality so he would want to participate and/or the GM can't provide some additional hooks (not always possible to tailor campaigns for every special snowflake) then the player needs to make a new character and let the brandy maker retire.
If the character wants to continue, then the next question is if the player wants/expects a mechanical advantage from the business or is just interested in the flavor. Generally speaking, I am willing to spend a small, but significant amount of gold on flavor, and I'm cool with not getting any appreciable benefit from them. If that is the case, then this can be handled as flavor. The player, the GM or some combination can periodically describe how the business is growing etc. without it having any mechanics or rules behind it. If it doesn't effect the wealth the character has to invest in personal equipment, then from a game perspective it doesn't matter a whole lot.
If the player really wants and expects a mechanical advantage, if successful, then rules, either ultimate campaign or some other system will have to be used, but first finding out want is expected is critical.
Definitely this: communicate to find out exactly what is wanted.
I've always enjoyed seeing players in my group coming up with stuff like this, and it always adds to the game, and I have fun doing it myself.
However, if I were to decide I wanted my character to start a business, I wouldn't be in it for the simulation of actually running a business.
Rather, I'd do it for the plot hooks and contributions to the story I'm hoping it would add (important NPC's complimenting the quality of the brandy, occasional social interactions with employees and regular customers, trade negotiations with mysterious races in mysterious lands, adventures with guarding a caravan delivering a special delivery of brandy ordered by the king of the realm, obtaining special ingredients or equipment that require a dangerous quest into a mysterious dungeon to find, defend the distillery from the occasional drunken gremlin infestation....)
This player may be less interested in either the simulation or role-playing aspects than he is in counting this a capstone in character development, so he can finally bring his character's story arc to a close, retire the character, and try out the Halfling Werewolf Barbarian he created a couple weeks ago and has been dying to play.
You'll want to be sure you are really giving this audience what it wants.
So, talk it over with the player, and find out what exactly he and his character envision starting and running this business to mean and represent.
Dotting thins.
Even this:
i would think he would go down the world's most interesting brandy makers route. he's been laying it on thick in every tavern in every town we have visited. "you call this brandy?!?!?...here, try some of my own batch and taste what brandy was meant to be!!!"
is covered as a Downtime Activity, it is called Promote a Business!
The Downtime System is very versatile and rewarding, look into it, =) As said above, you can gain other than just cash to support other activities. Once you introduce it, the other players at your table are going to want to use it for their own endeavors, believe me, =)
well, we played last night and the cleric is now wondering what's the point of building this distillery. i had thought it was a roleplaying opportunity to gain fame and cool influence but i was wrong. once he found out how little he would actually make in gold,(he thought he would make 500-1000gp a week), he decided to scrap the idea. he also is wondering why he took leadership as his 7th level feat. i told him most players if given a chance to choose the feat leadership, don't open a distillery. the feat is still super powerful, but he may change it. we then ran into other problems and the brandy business took a back seat
our inquisitor wants to build an armed WACO-like cult compound so that should be interesting lol
Well sad face for the distillery, he was just in it for the moneys. But Bran, I wish I played with you. Sounds like you have a wonderful set of players, if a little weird with the cult thing.
Well sad face for the distillery, he was just in it for the moneys. But Bran, I wish I played with you. Sounds like you have a wonderful set of players, if a little weird with the cult thing.
lol, we would love to have you but be warned......
6 very weird and different pcs at the table.
Considering your other thread, this might be an opportunity to balance out those bonus xp's the cleric got. The day his level gets over the party is the day his brewery is in sudden need of direct management.
yeah, lol... we have to spend a whole game session talking about the brandy business, now he's getting solo exp. his disappointment about the brandy distillery could of spilled over to the gm throwing him bonus exp to keep him quiet and less mopey.
I wish to use my adventuring funds to revitalize a town orphanage and install a secret room for training the urchins into thieves. I think I'd probably fit in. and unlike your brandy buddy I am aware of the lack of returns for my investment. I just want to leave my mark.
I wish to use my adventuring funds to revitalize a town orphanage and install a secret room for training the urchins into thieves. I think I'd probably fit in. and unlike your brandy buddy I am aware of the lack of returns for my investment. I just want to leave my mark.
that's what i thought the whole point was. kudos to you and your oliver twist academy of pickpocketing. inquisitor wants a cult compound...fine brandy distillery...cool
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I would resolve his business through simple set of modifiers on his Profession and Craft check similar to those in Pillars of Eternity video game for building a stronghold. It would include hiring workers and security, and building additional buildings. Additional workers would add +1 per worker, additional storage building would add +2, etc. All of it could be resolved through simple d20 + X roll in the end and player would feel sense of progression.
It might require a lot of work from GM though, but it could be easily done out of session.
I wish to use my adventuring funds to revitalize a town orphanage and install a secret room for training the urchins into thieves. I think I'd probably fit in. and unlike your brandy buddy I am aware of the lack of returns for my investment. I just want to leave my mark.
that's what i thought the whole point was. kudos to you and your oliver twist academy of pickpocketing. inquisitor wants a cult compound...fine brandy distillery...cool
Rogue Academy actually. The more promising pickpockets will be invited downstairs to the academy where they'll be taught stealth on floors of various noisy materials. Practice the right stabbing spots on a humanoid dummies. And learn how to pick locks on several practice chests skyrim style.
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well, we played last night and the cleric is now wondering what's the point of building this distillery. i had thought it was a roleplaying opportunity to gain fame and cool influence but i was wrong. once he found out how little he would actually make in gold,(he thought he would make 500-1000gp a week), he decided to scrap the idea. he also is wondering why he took leadership as his 7th level feat. i told him most players if given a chance to choose the feat leadership, don't open a distillery. the feat is still super powerful, but he may change it. we then ran into other problems and the brandy business took a back seat
His loss. The magic capital my magus has earned from his shops allows him to craft magical items at 1/8 their market price, saving him HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of gold on magical item creation over his adventuring and business career.
The problem was that he set his expectations too high. You don't earn that kind of money with just one distillery. That's enough dough to afford an extravagant lifestyle! Only nobles and the extremely wealthy, who own kingdoms and trade empires generally have that. He'd need a dozen distilleries.
The real power is in how you use your non-gold capital to effect the game world.
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Man, I thought this guy was a brother from another mother for a minute there. This could have spun off into a crazy town of (literally!) cutthroat business dealings, seeking lost recipes or ingredients, reaching trade agreements with unsavory characters, courting just the right NPC to make the business fly, etc. Dude's after the wrong thing if he just wants GP, in my not-so-humble opinion!
Leadership can mean a lot of things. In our campaigns it also substitutes for a network of safe houses and support. You don't necessarily need a feat for that, but it an help justify it for the GM. I almost always take it. When I GM, I give it away for free and try to find a suitable substitute if people don't want a flunky, staffed mansion, business or other organization to belong to.
Man, I thought this guy was a brother from another mother for a minute there. This could have spun off into a crazy town of (literally!) cutthroat business dealings, seeking lost recipes or ingredients, reaching trade agreements with unsavory characters, courting just the right NPC to make the business fly, etc. Dude's after the wrong thing if he just wants GP, in my not-so-humble opinion!
Leadership can mean a lot of things. In our campaigns it also substitutes for a network of safe houses and support. You don't necessarily need a feat for that, but it an help justify it for the GM. I almost always take it. When I GM, I give it away for free and try to find a suitable substitute if people don't want a flunky, staffed mansion, business or other organization to belong to.
I agree - I would have been totally into the crazy-town business dealings, if it were my character and I had a DM who saw the possibilities. I think the group may have lost out on something far more valuable than a few extra GP thanks to the player losing interest.
And, I like the way your group thinks, regarding the alternative, non-literal interpretations for Leadership :)
So the player lost interest? Maybe he sparked an interest in the other PCs. A distillery making liquors made with rare ingredients from across the (insert appropriate geographical area relative to your campaign here)
Just keep in mind that Ultimate Campaign's downtime rules are really designed around the system being unobtrusive, and in the background. It focuses on taking very little table time, and ultimately does not generate much in income. It is there specifically for the situation you are in, a player want to turn his murderhobo into more of a person. There are quirks in the system, it hasn't really been evolved at all, so it is what it is. For basic stuff like this, a single business earning capital, it works well. More complicated stuff causes the math to get wonky at times.
I definitely think you should lean heavily on the downtime events. Those are what bring the businesses impact onto the table, instead of just having it add a bit of coin to the character's pockets.
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Leadership can mean a lot of things. In our campaigns it also substitutes for a network of safe houses and support.
Totally agree, I recently built a detective build and took Leadership to represent my contacts around the city.
My Cohort was the Watson to my Holmes, and my followers (8 level 1 followers, yay -_- ) were the servants/barmaids/beggars in my employ feeding me information. Gameplay wise they added nearly nothing since I could get all that from Knowledge checks, persuasion etc. but I loved having it. I loved that the guy took leadership just to staff his distillery.I guess we'll all have to make our own game where we play as the level 1 followers in the distillery, and see what kind of exciting adventures we can have.
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...
I guess we'll all have to make our own game where we play as the level 1 followers in the distillery, and see what kind of exciting adventures we can have.
"You all meet in a taver- er, I mean, distillery, when a peculiar old man in a pointy hat steps out of the shadows and says: 'I have a job for you!' The wizard-distiller always had peculiar jobs for your party. In fact, last month's grape delivery resulted in three burned villages, a goblin raid, an excommunication, a new recipe for Mogmurch's Pickled Goblin Wine, and nearly 5,000 gold pieces worth of treasure...."