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I took a good, long read of the Unchained crafting rules. I like them, to a certain extent, but only when used for the intended purpose - that is, as far as I can tell, to allow players to make expensive things like full plate and high-cost poisons and alchemical items without having to spend weeks on end on it.
I have, however, come upon a certain unfortunate and clearly unintended capability. It is based upon the ability to carry over progress made with a given craft check to other items, and that progress is checked daily, rather than weekly. This means that, for a given Craft subskill (like Alchemy, Weapons, etc), and a given item or item DC, you can make a check and effectively shop for items with the effective gold you've just generated; I will be referring to this as the Craft Potential for the duration of this thread.
Now, let's take a sample character, and explore our options.
Franklin the Human Wizard 1. Let's say Franklin has a rank in a Craft skill, and as is fairly typical for wizards, he has 18 Intelligence, meaning his modifier to the Craft check is 1 (Rank) + 3 (Class Skill) + 4 (Int Mod) = +8. If taking 10, he gets a result of 18. Quite respectable, especially for first level.
This means Franklin could beat the Extremely Simple (5), Simple (10), and Normal (15) DC's without a problem. He could make 1.5, 2, and 2 gold pieces' worth of any of them, respectively, because he can make triple, double, or normal progress on each of them.
Now, let's say Franklin is a crafting maniac, and wants to make all the progress he can per day to get the the most he can out of the skill. He's a competent Wizard, and spends his money and spells wisely, so he picks up a Masterwork Tool of his craft skill of choice for a +2 Competence bonus, casts Crafter's Fortune for a +5 Luck bonus, has the Patient Calm trait in his skill to allow him to Take 12 instead of 10 (effectively, +2),the Inner Beauty trait for a +4 Trait bonus on one check per day, and has Skill Focus in it for a +3 to it.
In total, Franklin is an extremely potent crafter for a first level character, and can make a check result of 10 (Take 10) + 1 (Rank) + 3 (Class Skill) + 4 (Int Mod) + 2 (Tool) + 5 (Crafter's Fortune) + 2 (Patient Calm) + 4 (Inner Beauty) + 3 (Skill Focus) = 34.
If Franklin pays for some untrained laborers, a maximum of two for most things or ten for big projects, and his intended item is a Simple or Extremely Simple item, then the laborers can take 10 to give him an Aid Another bonus of between +4 and +20 for a total ranging between 38 and 54.
That's a lot of items.
Now, here's where things get broken. If we used that above example as a reference, assuming Franklin has all ten untrained helpers, he can beat a DC of 50, meaning he can make 18gp (+2 gp per 5 over 10) of Simple items per day.
The Core Rulebook states that the price of one loaf of bread is 2cp. Since crafting something only uses raw materials worth a quarter of their market price, one loaf of bread only costs half of a copper to bake. Franklin, assuming he has access to an oven and plenty of supplies, can therefore use Craft (Baking) or perhaps just Craft (Food) to create 36,000 loaves of bread per day, every day, forever. Each loaf weighs half a pound, so that'd be 18,000 pounds, or nine tons, of bread, in an eight hour work day. He and his ten faithful, untrained laborers therefore produce 4,500 loaves of bread per hour, or 75 loaves per minute, or 1.25 loaves per second. This means Franklin is a productive as a smallish modern-day commercial bread factory, if the example given here: https://youtu.be/3UjUWfwWAC4 is accurate. And this is just first level.
He doesn't have to do it all at once, though. Unchained lets you delay your crafting progress for later, so he can stop baking and start again some other time if he wants.
And sure, he might not have the luxury of 10 laborers. That's okay. If he has three party members and a familiar to take 10 on their Aid Another, he can still reach DC 40 and produce thousands of loaves at a time.
I hope this thread will promote reasonable and completely serious discussion about the ramifications of the Unchained crafting system, and on the various uses an adventuring party may have for what is clearly the most versatile and powerful item, bread.
Off the top of my head, bread can:
-Be thrown into hallways to check for traps.
-Be thrown at enemies as an improvised weapon.
-Be used to intimidate enemies with the horror that is pumpernickel.
-Make a pretty good form of cover, if you bake dense, square breads and stack them up like bricks.
-Feed people (duh).
I'm sure there's more uses for such a versatile and overpowered tool, so please, post what you come up with. Also, please post other ways to get a higher Craft (Baking) skill check, as I'm sure I haven't found them all - especially at first level, where it is crucial that you make as much use of your limited starting wealth ad possible. Please keep your criticism constructive and comments on topic, as this is no place for a flame war - you'll burn the bread.
The Prodigy feat is a +2 to two skills feat, and can pick from subsets of Craft, Profession, and Perform.
The 3pp Artisan class has L1 access to Master Craftsman for a +2, among other things; you just won't have Crafter's Fortune yet without making scrolls of it.
As for trait, I prefer Artisan, since Inner Beauty requires a specific deity (Shelyn.) I know it's a bit less powerful, but yeah.
Sounds like it's similar to the crafting in the kingdom building rules. I bet these can be combine to produce epic business.
1) CRB p91: "You can practice your trade and make a decent living, earning half your check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work."
Lets say you have a Take-10 of 40.
40 / 2 = 20 gp per week.
Has this changed?
2) CRB p92: "To determine how much time and money it takes to
make an item, follow these steps.
1. Find the item’s price in silver pieces (1 gp = 10 sp).
2. Find the item’s DC from Table 4–4.
3. Pay 1/3 of the item’s price for the raw material cost.
4. Make an appropriate Craft check representing one week’s worth of work. If the check succeeds, multiply your check result by the DC. If the result × the DC equals the price of the item in sp, then you have completed the item. (If the result × the DC equals double or triple the price of the item in silver pieces, then you’ve completed the task in one-half or onethird of the time. Other multiples of the DC reduce the time in the same manner.) If the result × the DC doesn’t equal the price, then it represents the progress you’ve made this week. Record the result and make a new Craft check for the next week. Each week, you make more progress until your total reaches the price of the item in silver pieces."
Lets make a DC 40 item with a Take-10 of 40:
DC*Check = 40*40 = 1600 sp = 160 gp for a week.
Materials cost 1/3, that is 53.333 gp for the week.
Sell it for half price. Yep, unless you are commisioned to make it, you can't sell for full price. Sell for 80 gp.
Profit = 80 gp - 53.333 gp = 26.666 gp for the week.
DC 30 / Skill Take-10 30 is the break even to make specific items.
Has this changed?
3) CRB p93: "You can make checks by the day instead of by the week. In this case your progress (check result × DC) should be divided by the number of days in a week."
Sounds like this is the same.
4) Go on an adventure: Get lots of loot.
This is the most profitable path.
The downtime rules can also be used to generate income.
Deanthelis wrote: Now, here's where things get broken. If we used that above example as a reference, assuming Franklin has all ten untrained helpers, he can beat a DC of 50, meaning he can make 18gp (+2 gp per 5 over 10) of Simple items per day.
The Core Rulebook states that the price of one loaf of bread is 2cp. Since crafting something only uses raw materials worth a quarter of their market price, one loaf of bread only costs half of a copper to bake. Franklin, assuming he has access to an oven and plenty of supplies, can therefore use Craft (Baking) or perhaps just Craft (Food) to create 36,000 loaves of bread per day, every day, forever. Each loaf weighs half a pound, so that'd be 18,000 pounds, or nine tons, of bread, in an eight hour work day. He and his ten faithful, untrained laborers therefore produce 4,500 loaves of bread per hour, or 75 loaves per minute, or 1.25 loaves per second. This means Franklin is a productive as a smallish modern-day commercial bread factory, if the example given here: Youtube is accurate. And this is just first level.
The broken part is that any sane GM will limit the market, allowing you to only sell so much. Likewise, the logistics of that much production may be deemed too much to accomplish.
For a higher skill, make a little cash and buy a Ioun Stone (Scarlet and Blue Sphere), Cracked for 200gp gives a +1 competence bonus to a single int based skill, chosen when made. When you have made some more cash, buy a Ioun Stone (Magenta Prism), Cracked for 800gp gives a floating +2 competence bonus to a single skill chosen 1/day.
A Valet Familiar gains Cooperative Crafting. This gives +2 circumstance bonus and doubles the gp value of items that can be crafted each day.
/cevah
Now compare to the gold Frank makes going adventuring...
Cevah wrote: 1) CRB p91: "You can practice your trade and make a decent living, earning half your check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work."
Lets say you have a Take-10 of 40.
40 / 2 = 20 gp per week.
Has this changed?
2) CRB p92: "To determine how much time and money it takes to
make an item, follow these steps.
1. Find the item’s price in silver pieces (1 gp = 10 sp).
2. Find the item’s DC from Table 4–4.
3. Pay 1/3 of the item’s price for the raw material cost.
4. Make an appropriate Craft check representing one week’s worth of work. If the check succeeds, multiply your check result by the DC. If the result × the DC equals the price of the item in sp, then you have completed the item. (If the result × the DC equals double or triple the price of the item in silver pieces, then you’ve completed the task in one-half or onethird of the time. Other multiples of the DC reduce the time in the same manner.) If the result × the DC doesn’t equal the price, then it represents the progress you’ve made this week. Record the result and make a new Craft check for the next week. Each week, you make more progress until your total reaches the price of the item in silver pieces."
Lets make a DC 40 item with a Take-10 of 40:
DC*Check = 40*40 = 1600 sp = 160 gp for a week.
Materials cost 1/3, that is 53.333 gp for the week.
Sell it for half price. Yep, unless you are commisioned to make it, you can't sell for full price. Sell for 80 gp.
Profit = 80 gp - 53.333 gp = 26.666 gp for the week.
DC 30 / Skill Take-10 30 is the break even to make specific items.
Has this changed?
3) CRB p93: "You can make checks by the day instead of by the week. In this case your progress (check result × DC) should be divided by the number of days in a week."
Sounds like this is the same.
4) Go on an adventure: Get lots of loot.
This is the most profitable path.
The downtime rules can also be used to generate income.
Deanthelis wrote: Now, here's where things get broken. If we used that above ...
1. Yes! Unchained crafting is strictly by day. A take 10 of 40 gives you far more output per week, too.
2. Yes! Unchained crafting only uses 1/4 of the market price in raw materials, instead of 1/3. Also, DC's are fixed, and you make an amount of gp of progress per check based on a geometric scale of difficulty. In addition, each 5 by which you exceed the dc is worth another increment of progress, so a DC 10 item worth 2gp (conveniently, a dagger) can be made by anybody taking 10, but a take 10 of 15 gives you two daggers, 20 gives you three, and so on.
3. It isn't, due to the above reasons. You get more out of ranks in Craft with this, by a wide margin.
4. Nobody said this was to make money! We want to make bread! Several tons per day!
Also, how dare you suggest the bread be sold. It's far too useful for construction purposes! A week of baking, and Franklin could easily have a bread fortress. Or, you know, just feed a whole city with his pocket change. Nobody says he has to sell it, he could just give it away.
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That much bread could be used to
6. Become a god, well a god like Razimir, who multiplies bread wherever he goes
7. Reroute rivers by soaking them up and wringing them out somewhere else.
8. Soak up lakes and rivers that serve enemy settlements, drying up their source of fish and trade
9. Build a tower of bread up to the sky to challenge the gods
10. Fill chasms to make overland travel safer
11. Line the ground below cliffs to make cliff climbing safer.
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12. burn the bread, grind it up, make charcoal, use it for gas masks that will give +2 bonus on saves vs nausea or sickness or any poisons delivered by breathing in.
13. Use said gas masks to arm your troops and use couldkill spells on the enemy
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14. Train an armada of pigeons, and send them to poop on the enemy on command.
15. Drop into the underdark to feed all those monsters being hunted to extinction by adventurers.
/cevah
Starfinder Charter Superscriber
16. Get your math and rules right, and make 900 loaves.
Starfinder Charter Superscriber
...450 loaves on a check of 50...
That's what I get for assuming you at least had something right.
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