Deanthelis's page

In response to the OP:
Dreamscarred Press has an interesting Psionic Lich-like template, called the Mindborn; It's not OGL (it's from Psionics Augmented: Seventh Path, a book very much about Psionics and the Undead, especially Incorporeality and ghosts - I recommend getting it anyway if you already use DSP Psionics at your table), so I can't exactly post the whole thing, but some choice tidbits:

-Any Alignment.
-You become an Outsider with the Native and Incorporeal(!) subtypes.
-You need a Manifester Level of 11th or higher, and it costs 120,000gp to make the 'cocoon' that rejuvenates you if you are slain; same requirements as the phylactery, really.
-Unlike most Incorporeal creatures, the Deflection AC bonus is INT-based (Sorry, Wilders!)
-A touch attack, which is somewhat weak, but interestingly can be used to heal yourself
-You can become fully Corporeal at will, using Intelligence in place of Strength (Note: This is the only way I know of to gain Intelligence to Carrying Capacity, attack rolls, and damage)
-A hefty boost to Manifester Level and ability scores across the board, but you lose Strength entirely (not that most Psions had much to begin with)
-Several other nifty abilities that befit one whose body has been discarded in favor of becoming a tangible mind!

It makes the Psion Uncarnate look like a chump, though there's really no reason any high-level Psion shouldn't go for this, honestly. There's nothing inherently evil about it whatsoever; Lichdom, without the whole 'inexplicably evil act' and all that.

Tangentially related: Eldritch Smith and other similar cost reductions would apply to making a Phylactery!

I like how you simply win at 5th level.

I would contest that notion, but honestly, from what I know from all my experiences with the game, I can say with relative certainty that if a party of wizards were to adhere closely to the guidelines Ashiel has presented here, and reapply the concepts as they go up in level, there is not an AP Paizo has published that will stump them. Even Serpent's Skull would fall flat with careful enough planning.

Edit: Something has occurred to me. Wizards, quite clearly, have passed the test so to speak - it's rather apparent to me that a single-classed party of wizards can handle any AP, and isn’t really a surprise - but why should Wizards be the only ones to take this test?

Allow me to expand upon this notion. I propose that every single base class should be able to stand on its own merits and be capable of completing any AP regardless of party composition, even a party only consisting of that class. This is because every base class, I think, should be versatile enough to contribute the resources required to do so, assuming all players of the party possess enough system mastery to create a character that can do so.

In shorter terms; a party of 4 of the same class should be able to complete any AP that a party of 4 of any other class can complete. If they cannot, then either the class is inadequately designed, the AP is unfairly structured, or quite possibly both.

Certainly some classes might be better at parts of an AP than others - to use a prior example, Druids should be able to get along better in the early portions of Serpent's Skull than a party of Wizards might, due to the Druid's relative lack of dependence upon settlements (Ashiel repeatedly mentions consumable items and crafting in his post - I daresay neither of those things are so easily used effectively in the midst of a foreboding jungle, not when compared to the raw, unbridled player agency of Kingmaker).

1) CRB p91: "You can practice your trade and make a decent living, earning half your check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work."

Lets say you have a Take-10 of 40.
40 / 2 = 20 gp per week.

Has this changed?

2) CRB p92: "To determine how much time and money it takes to
make an item, follow these steps.
1. Find the item’s price in silver pieces (1 gp = 10 sp).
2. Find the item’s DC from Table 4–4.
3. Pay 1/3 of the item’s price for the raw material cost.
4. Make an appropriate Craft check representing one week’s worth of work. If the check succeeds, multiply your check result by the DC. If the result × the DC equals the price of the item in sp, then you have completed the item. (If the result × the DC equals double or triple the price of the item in silver pieces, then you’ve completed the task in one-half or onethird of the time. Other multiples of the DC reduce the time in the same manner.) If the result × the DC doesn’t equal the price, then it represents the progress you’ve made this week. Record the result and make a new Craft check for the next week. Each week, you make more progress until your total reaches the price of the item in silver pieces."

Lets make a DC 40 item with a Take-10 of 40:
DC*Check = 40*40 = 1600 sp = 160 gp for a week.
Materials cost 1/3, that is 53.333 gp for the week.
Sell it for half price. Yep, unless you are commisioned to make it, you can't sell for full price. Sell for 80 gp.
Profit = 80 gp - 53.333 gp = 26.666 gp for the week.

DC 30 / Skill Take-10 30 is the break even to make specific items.

Has this changed?

3) CRB p93: "You can make checks by the day instead of by the week. In this case your progress (check result × DC) should be divided by the number of days in a week."

Sounds like this is the same.

4) Go on an adventure: Get lots of loot.

This is the most profitable path.

The downtime rules can also be used to generate income.

Deanthelis wrote:

Now, here's where things get broken. If we used that above

...

1. Yes! Unchained crafting is strictly by day. A take 10 of 40 gives you far more output per week, too.

2. Yes! Unchained crafting only uses 1/4 of the market price in raw materials, instead of 1/3. Also, DC's are fixed, and you make an amount of gp of progress per check based on a geometric scale of difficulty. In addition, each 5 by which you exceed the dc is worth another increment of progress, so a DC 10 item worth 2gp (conveniently, a dagger) can be made by anybody taking 10, but a take 10 of 15 gives you two daggers, 20 gives you three, and so on.

3. It isn't, due to the above reasons. You get more out of ranks in Craft with this, by a wide margin.

4. Nobody said this was to make money! We want to make bread! Several tons per day!

Also, how dare you suggest the bread be sold. It's far too useful for construction purposes! A week of baking, and Franklin could easily have a bread fortress. Or, you know, just feed a whole city with his pocket change. Nobody says he has to sell it, he could just give it away.

I took a good, long read of the Unchained crafting rules. I like them, to a certain extent, but only when used for the intended purpose - that is, as far as I can tell, to allow players to make expensive things like full plate and high-cost poisons and alchemical items without having to spend weeks on end on it.

I have, however, come upon a certain unfortunate and clearly unintended capability. It is based upon the ability to carry over progress made with a given craft check to other items, and that progress is checked daily, rather than weekly. This means that, for a given Craft subskill (like Alchemy, Weapons, etc), and a given item or item DC, you can make a check and effectively shop for items with the effective gold you've just generated; I will be referring to this as the Craft Potential for the duration of this thread.

Now, let's take a sample character, and explore our options.

Franklin the Human Wizard 1. Let's say Franklin has a rank in a Craft skill, and as is fairly typical for wizards, he has 18 Intelligence, meaning his modifier to the Craft check is 1 (Rank) + 3 (Class Skill) + 4 (Int Mod) = +8. If taking 10, he gets a result of 18. Quite respectable, especially for first level.

This means Franklin could beat the Extremely Simple (5), Simple (10), and Normal (15) DC's without a problem. He could make 1.5, 2, and 2 gold pieces' worth of any of them, respectively, because he can make triple, double, or normal progress on each of them.

Now, let's say Franklin is a crafting maniac, and wants to make all the progress he can per day to get the the most he can out of the skill. He's a competent Wizard, and spends his money and spells wisely, so he picks up a Masterwork Tool of his craft skill of choice for a +2 Competence bonus, casts Crafter's Fortune for a +5 Luck bonus, has the Patient Calm trait in his skill to allow him to Take 12 instead of 10 (effectively, +2),the Inner Beauty trait for a +4 Trait bonus on one check per day, and has Skill Focus in it for a +3 to it.

In total, Franklin is an extremely potent crafter for a first level character, and can make a check result of 10 (Take 10) + 1 (Rank) + 3 (Class Skill) + 4 (Int Mod) + 2 (Tool) + 5 (Crafter's Fortune) + 2 (Patient Calm) + 4 (Inner Beauty) + 3 (Skill Focus) = 34.
If Franklin pays for some untrained laborers, a maximum of two for most things or ten for big projects, and his intended item is a Simple or Extremely Simple item, then the laborers can take 10 to give him an Aid Another bonus of between +4 and +20 for a total ranging between 38 and 54.

That's a lot of items.

Now, here's where things get broken. If we used that above example as a reference, assuming Franklin has all ten untrained helpers, he can beat a DC of 50, meaning he can make 18gp (+2 gp per 5 over 10) of Simple items per day.

The Core Rulebook states that the price of one loaf of bread is 2cp. Since crafting something only uses raw materials worth a quarter of their market price, one loaf of bread only costs half of a copper to bake. Franklin, assuming he has access to an oven and plenty of supplies, can therefore use Craft (Baking) or perhaps just Craft (Food) to create 36,000 loaves of bread per day, every day, forever. Each loaf weighs half a pound, so that'd be 18,000 pounds, or nine tons, of bread, in an eight hour work day. He and his ten faithful, untrained laborers therefore produce 4,500 loaves of bread per hour, or 75 loaves per minute, or 1.25 loaves per second. This means Franklin is a productive as a smallish modern-day commercial bread factory, if the example given here: https://youtu.be/3UjUWfwWAC4 is accurate. And this is just first level.

He doesn't have to do it all at once, though. Unchained lets you delay your crafting progress for later, so he can stop baking and start again some other time if he wants.

And sure, he might not have the luxury of 10 laborers. That's okay. If he has three party members and a familiar to take 10 on their Aid Another, he can still reach DC 40 and produce thousands of loaves at a time.

I hope this thread will promote reasonable and completely serious discussion about the ramifications of the Unchained crafting system, and on the various uses an adventuring party may have for what is clearly the most versatile and powerful item, bread.

Off the top of my head, bread can:
-Be thrown into hallways to check for traps.
-Be thrown at enemies as an improvised weapon.
-Be used to intimidate enemies with the horror that is pumpernickel.
-Make a pretty good form of cover, if you bake dense, square breads and stack them up like bricks.
-Feed people (duh).

I'm sure there's more uses for such a versatile and overpowered tool, so please, post what you come up with. Also, please post other ways to get a higher Craft (Baking) skill check, as I'm sure I haven't found them all - especially at first level, where it is crucial that you make as much use of your limited starting wealth ad possible. Please keep your criticism constructive and comments on topic, as this is no place for a flame war - you'll burn the bread.