First World Assistance


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion


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The characters in my campaign have crossed a planar tear into First World. I have been reading everything I can find about First World. In several places, references are made to "Shaping" the local area. I would like to develop this as an ability and need your assistance.

Should this be a Spell or a Feat?

How can low level Shapers only affect their immediate area, while powerful Shapers can make changes to hundreds of miles.

Once altered, how is it maintained over time to keep the chaos of First World from undoing it?

What happens if multiple Shapers try to make changes to the same area?

What is the Saving Throw if a Shaper tries to change a living thing or a magic item?

I welcome all your thoughts at this point.


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I don't know how Golarion does it. I have this ability firmly rooted in the Eldest.

In my homebrew the Eldest are the only constants in a sea of change. This makes them at once both all-powerful and nearly insane. Imagine if your entire world around you was defined by constant change and you are the only one who can't.

As such the Eldest have the will to impose form on the formlessness around them. In their fevered minds they envision a "perfect" land and each Eldest creates this differently. There was Mad Queen Mabbe who imagined a world of mirrors where all would look upon her beauty and despair; there was the Red Queen who had the mind of a 6 year old mortal girl and envisioned a "Wonderland"; then there was Luposz, the Werewolf Lord, who saw only an endless land of pinewood and night.

Sczarni RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

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I don't think I would tie to to a spell or feat at all, but use it instead as a story telling device that is constantly in place throughout the campaign.

For shaping large parts of the First World, I personaly would only have it be something that the Eldest and really high powered characters can do, with possible mythic abilities in place to give them such power.

But I would always have subconcious alterations be constant and present. In some areas of the First World the changes and alterations would be more obvious and easier to do, while others would resist the changes. Of course, this is unpredictable and often spontaneous.

Every character would have something occationally happen due to their emotion, thoughts, or dreams. These things would be uncontrollable and happen withtout much warning. It could be all of the flowers of the area turning to face them as they walk by. Or it could be significant and obvious as a lost lover's face or body being formed in the clouds and waving to them. Perception checks can be made to notice these, and they could even be used to assist some Sense Motive checks if the PCs are smart enough.

If the PCs want to try and make any significant change then maybe a check would be a good way to do it. You could also mix in various transmutation spells (wild magic from Unchained would be great for the First World by the way,) to assist their efforts. Maybe a Craft check mixed with a Charisma check. Of course, any change they make would be temorary and might be too fleeting to be useful.

If you really want ot have a spell, try creating 3rd, 5th, and 7th level spells. Title them Shape First World, make them transmutation, and have them affect different sized areas and types of things in the First World.

You could also make the ability only function with a magic item.


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My characters are 10-12th level. One of them is a Sylvan Elf Druid-11 of the Green Faith. The player is wanting to know more about shaping the area of First World. Nothing huge, but just how her character can start developing that ability. I just want to have some guidelines in place before next game session.

I really don't like the idea of it being a spell because that limits it to the spell casting classes.

I think it should be based on the character's power level only. I just don't know how to adjudicate it.


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I sort of look at it like the power over Shadow of the characters in Zelazny's Amber Chronicles. There, the power is limited to those of substantial power (typically, only people who have walked and survived either the Pattern or Logrus). I think the same should hold true for the First World- hence one of the reasons why the Eldest hold the power they do, as they are among the few who have a really defined method of doing it.

As to how that plays out in game terms? I'm not sure. I definitely wouldn't link it exclusively to spellcasting; it should be something available (potentially) to anyone regardless of class. Similarly, I wouldn't make it an archetype, unless you are going to create similar archetypes for different classes. Possibly a feat that allows for some kind of "minor" abilities and leads into a greater chain, or else something that otherwise scales with level (I do agree that it should be linked somehow to level, just not quite sure how).

Whether you tie it into a concept like the Pattern or Logrus of Zelazny is entirely up to you, but limiting access in some way through exclusivity might not be a bad idea.

I shall continue to ponder.


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I would almost think that it would work akin to the way demon lord realm powers worked, but scaled to character level or hit dice...which is why the Eldest can essentially show up and Change the World.

Though I am the sort to make tinkering with the First World the sort of thing that, done too flippantly, tends to change a person, and not necessarily for the better.


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Personally, I'd tie the ability to the character's Charisma score. If intelligence is the character's ability to learn and wisdom is the character's ability to perceive, understand and a measure of their willpower; charisma is the character's ability to exert their own influence on the world around them (be that in their ability to lead, or warp the energies of the universe to their whim).

This way, anyone with a Charisma score can influence their surroundings in the First World to a varying degree. Those with higher charisma would have a greater ability and can more easily overcome changes made by someone with less charisma.


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I am leaning towards a Chain of Feats with each higher level feat allowing the shaping of progressively larger areas. In addition to the Feat, I will take into account Level and the bonuses of the mental abilities (INT, WIS and CHA).

I do like the requiring some sort of task or exclusivity to gain access to the Feats. so I will come up with some kind of task/test as Feat requirements.


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Some of the 3.5 splatbooks (Sandstorm and Planar Handbook are the two I recall) had a feat called "Touchstone" that allowed certain special abilities that were connected to a particular location. If the character visited that location and "recharged" he could gain additional abilities. They could also "reset" the location by visiting a different touchstone.

I'm not entirely sure how that would work here, but it might provide a jumping-off point for a chain of feats.

I also agree with the notion that Charisma should be a key ability.


I received my copy of Pathfinder Unchained today. Maybe I will have some ideas after reading it.


It occurs to me that you might want to look at the abilities of some of the Proteans and/or the Shadow Evocation and Conjuration spells for inspiration as well.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The Eldest are essentially gods that make the domains around them, morphic to their desire.


I understand the Eldest are gods and shape entire domains. What I am looking for is a way to shape maybe a few hundred feet radius at its highest ability.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Urlord wrote:
I understand the Eldest are gods and shape entire domains. What I am looking for is a way to shape maybe a few hundred feet radius at its highest ability.

I don't think there's a standard ability to do what you want. It's more of a nature of the plane itself.


Have ypu tried looking at the create demiplane spells? Those might provide a good framework.

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