Elven Curve Blade + Unarmed Strike

[Byakko]

graystone wrote:

Byakko wrote:

]Just because it lists a penalty for potential offhand attacks doesn't mean additional attacks are automatically granted.

Having additional limbs does not automatically grant you more attacks.

To reiterate, if Kasathas didn't have the Multi-Armed racial trait, they would only have one offhand attack despite having 4 arms (regardless of whether they have the Multiweapon Fighting feat).

To make this perfectly clear, if a human chooses to kick as their primary unarmed strike, can they then make two offhand attacks as their arms/hands have not been used yet?
No.

1) It's clear when you read the normal section of the feat that you are incorrect. "a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands" + "It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands." How can you have penalties on attacks you don't get?

If it worked like you think, the normal would say "a –10 penalty on attacks made with its off hand" since you think the normal says it gets only one.

2) Having additional ARMS does indeed grant extra off hand attacks. It's what the normal section says. Plural, multiple off hands.

3) To reiterate, a Kasathas' Multi-Armed racial trait does absolutely NOTHING other than grant 4 arms. The rest only reiterates what it could already do because it has 4 arms.

4) The human can't normally as it can only use two weapon fighting. If it can grow a true extra arm somehow then it has no problems making a primary kick and two off hand attacks (arms, headbutts, ect). Heck it could make a boulder helmet, armor spikes and a kick if it wished as it's off hand attacks don't have to correspond to it's actual/physical hands.

The normal section tells you how attacks with multiple weapons work and it automatically replaces part of the two weapon combat section when you have 3+ arms.

(Quick note to that guy talking about ITWF: we're assuming you don't have such feats. This is the base case.)

1)That is totally not true. You have to have to HAVE the offhand attacks to benefit from the feat. This feat merely lowers the penalties if you can already make them. Absolutely no where in the feat does it say it grants additional attacks, offhand or otherwise. The Normal section is referring to how multiple offhand attacks would be made without this feat, but this in no way justifies the automatic granting of such offhand attacks.

2) Having additional arms does not innately grant you more attacks. Even a creature with two arms is only allowed to make a single offhand attack (which doesn't even have to be with a physical hand) only because of the rules in the TWF section.
Actually, a creature with only ONE arm is still allowed to make a single offhand attack. The number of offhand attacks a creature can make is unrelated to how many physical hands it has (without additional rules).

3) It IS absolutely required. "A kasatha has four arms. One hand is considered its primary hand; all others are considered off hands." The bolded section is what gives it additional offhand attacks. Without this text, they would only have one offhand attack. Granted, it could be worded a little better, but I believe the text was written before the metaphysical hands stuff was introduced. In any case, the intent is clear: they have additional offhands to work with.

4) You're right. Humans can only use Two-Weapon Fighting. Guess what? EVERY creature can only use Two-Weapon Fighting, unless it has special rules specifically granting it additional attacks/offhand attacks.

5) The Multiweapon Fighting feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting FEAT not the Two-Weapon Fighting RULES.

[blackbloodtroll]

You could two weapon fight, with two unarmed strikes, and still wield a Longspear. You just could not attack with the Longspear, during that Full-Attack action, to two weapon fight.

You don't even need to be a Monk, or have any special feats.

You just take some hefty penalties.

The note in the Monk entry is just a reminder. It's not some exception to any rule.

[graystone]

Byakko:
1) The feat states that the normal way things work is that after the primary hand, each other hand is an off hand and those incur a penalty to attack when used. There is NO indication that any of this is an IF you happen to have those offhands. I can't see how you can read that it "referring to how multiple offhand attacks would be made" on off hand attacks you say don't exist.
2) Once again, the normal section of the feat clearly points out how multiweapon fighting works with or without the feat. Once again it uses a plural for offhands and NOT the singular you say is the norm.
3)
kasatha: "One hand is considered its primary hand; all others are considered off hands."
MWF: "It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands."

How can use insist that one MUST happen and the other is meaningless when they are almost identical? The kasatha just restates what the normal section already said...
4) Almost right. "EVERY creature can only use Two-Weapon Fighting, unless it has" 3+ fully functional arms. Once it qualifies, it automatically falls under the MWF rules.
5) The Multiweapon Fighting feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting FEAT: It only stands to reason that the normal sections would ALSO be replaced (IE, what happens if you DON'T have the feat). If it doesn't work like that then what does the normal section mean?

EDIT: If you next reply is just more 'no it isn't' I'll most likely not reply in kind as a 'yes it it-no it isn't' argument doesn't get us anywhere. If what I've posted hasn't changed you mind, I doubt anything else I'd say would do it.

[Byakko]

graystone:

You're still reading way too much into the Multiweapon Fighting feat. It has one very short and specific benefit:

Quote:

Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by –2 with the primary hand and by –6 with off hands.

which replaces TWF's:

Quote:

The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6.

That is ALL it does.

The Normal block is more reminder text than anything else. The normal penalty for offhand attacks is -10, which is exactly what's stated in this feat. Also, are you ignoring the direct reference to the Two-Weapon Fighting section in the following sentence? That's pretty strong evidence that the TWF rules are still in effect.

There are no "MWF rules". You're still using TWF rules. The only thing the MWF feat does is change the penalties for multiple offhand attacks instead of TWF's single offhand attack. If you want to gain any benefit from this feat over the TWF feat, you're going to actually need additional offhand attacks granted from other rules sources. (which the Kasathas has) An Alchemist with a 3rd arm, for contrast, qualifies for this feat but doesn't gain any benefit from it over the TWF feat.

Also, note that the wording of this feat is taken directly from 3.5. Thus the text hasn't been adjusted for all the more recent offhand rules clarifications paizo has brought to the subject over recent years.