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It's cognitive basis nothing more, he's not actually looking for a convincing argument because his mind has already decided against it. This is why when responding to me the first thing he dismissed was armor and natural armor stacking because that invalidates his already made point. I appreciate your diligence in providing more examples but with the low power campaigns they run your examples will fall on deaf ears.
Cognitive Bias, I think you mean.
But yes, much of what he describes was illegal even under the old eidolon. Much of the fear of overpowered eidolons was because they were built incorrectly.
Yes, seems I didn't catch my misspellings. I think my phone has a sense of humor at times when I use it to reply to forum posts.
We must play in very different games. By level 10, PC tanks I run into seem to have ACs in the 38-42 range. (I don't play them, so I don't have the builds handy)
At level 10, an eidolon pounce beast has:
Dex 18
Natural Armor +8
Mage Armor +4
Shield +4
Barkskin +4for a total of 24.
Lets assume he picked a sub type that gives him flight to get the mobility you wanted.
He has 8 evo points;
Claws (1)
Rake (2)
Rend (2)
Pounce (3)Okay, thats all of them.
He has reach 5. Move 40 (although it is flight)
Lets say we want to make him large. That will cost him 4 evo points. Lets assume we use evo surge, (another action, and it has limited time.)
He now has reach... 5. Oh yeah, you only get extra reach from size large if your form is humanoid...
Okay, lets give him reach (maybe we had an extra evo point from feats or fcb.) He now has reach... 5. Except on a single attack that has reach 10. And reach can only be taken once.
Where are you seeing this high AC and reach?
If I had some time I could probably build a lvl 10 pounce barbarian with more natural attacks, more ac, more reach and more damage.
10+4+8+4+4+4= 34 not 24 man.
At level 10 that's a lot more than most damage focused builds.
If someone is hitting 38+ AC or even 30+ at level 10 then they are likely not doing too hot on DPR.
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huh. Must have been tired. Still, 34 (36, I missed the starting +2 Nat Armor) is still hardly insurmountable. And the Eidolon is short 2 HD at this point.
Also, this is the "buffed by party" eidolon. Compare to the buffed by party fighter. Unless it is a sword and board fighter, it can also benefit from the shield and barkskin. So, if he can hit AC 28, he is equal to the eidolon.
Also, the fighter is probably rocking a decent damage. The eidolon in this example has a strength 20 (before items) A decent strength barb, is rocking 24 strength before items. A strength build fighter is rocking 20, and has a boat load more feats.
Also, unless the summoner took a specific feat (they don't have a lot of them to spare) the eidolon is very, very vunerable to a high mobility foe who targets the summoner. All it takes is a knowledge planes check.
huh. Must have been tired. Still, 34 (36, I missed the starting +2 Nat Armor) is still hardly insurmountable. And the Eidolon is short 2 HD at this point.
Also, this is the "buffed by party" eidolon. Compare to the buffed by party fighter. Unless it is a sword and board fighter, it can also benefit from the shield and barkskin. So, if he can hit AC 28, he is equal to the eidolon.
Also, the fighter is probably rocking a decent damage. The eidolon in this example has a strength 20 (before items) A decent strength barb, is rocking 24 strength before items. A strength build fighter is rocking 20, and has a boat load more feats.
Also, unless the summoner took a specific feat (they don't have a lot of them to spare) the eidolon is very, very vunerable to a high mobility foe who targets the summoner. All it takes is a knowledge planes check.
Actually you can't cast shield on the Fighter. It's a personal spell, so it can onl be cast on self or on Eidolon because of share spells.
hitting AC 28 on the fighter at level 10, lemme see
28-10 (base AC)- 11 (+2 Full Plate)=7 -2 (ring of deflection)-3 (gonna be nice and say he somehow has 16 dex)=2 AC deficit compared to 28. Barkskin doesn't stack with amulet of natural armor, so I discarded amulet. So about 30 with Barkskin, not bad.
So a 2 handed Fighter at level 10 running around with 26 AC+4 from Barkskin comes out to 30. A pouncing Eidolan has about 36 according to your estimate. I don't feel like arguing damage numbers since honestly that doesn't matter much. The Eidolon is doing his job and doing it VERY well and that's what matters.
Also the Summoner actually has all those buffs. Barkskin, Mage Armor, and Shield. According to my game experience, assuming you aren't ambushed in your sleep you will have Mage armor up, heck you'll probably even have it up then. If you're expecting trouble within 40 minutes you'd have Barkskin up. Shield is more situational, but if I knew I was dungeoning I'd probably keep casting it with my spare level 1 slots.
I'd say the Summoner is only slightly more vulnerable than an equal level sorc/wizard. In other words it depends on what defensive buffs he has on himself and how well the party can organize defending the squishies. Not saying he's particularly defended, but he doesn't even need to be in line of sight to be useful in a fight assuming the Summoner just sticks to buffing the party and hiding during combat. His Eidolon doesn't need to be directed like an animal companion.
Overall I think Fighter is a bad comparison point since most would argue the higher survivability and damage on a pouncing eidolon outshadows the immobile fighter. Barbarians, Rangers, Paladins, ect are definitely better than Eidolons.
The mean attack value of CRR 14 Bestiary creatures is 22, the mode is 23, and the highest is 29. With 23 the monster needs a 7 to hit the fighter and a 13 to hit the Eidolon. For +29 needs a 2 to hit fighter and 7 to hit Eidolon.
Also, can you help us understand why the decision was made to not allow any of the good races to take the mount evolution?I'm not sure about agathions. The other ones mostly don't have the correct base forms anyway (and the azata serpentine has arms like the lillend, which would make it both a little odd and kind of risque).
Hey Mark, I just wanted to point this out as another weird evolution limitation. I was trying to create a "Celestial Wolf" themed agathion eidolon, but found that for some reason they can't take the trip evolution.
Funny thing, none of my players for home games ever wanted to play summoners, even if the option was open. This left any summoners as NPC opponents.
Now why would a GM actually use the unchained summoner rather than the APG one if the idea was to challenge a party?
*Looks*
*Sees still compatible with master summoner*
Nope... still broken,,. Master Summoner makes other summoners cry...