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Create a Fighter Level 5 with 3 times the amount of feats and you will be convinced that their DPR will be unchanged, but they will be able to do more: debuff with the Improved Sunder feat, they can be good at ranged attacks as well as melee attacks, can get past the Wizard's bodyguards with the Improved Overrun feat.
They also become a hot mess to create and play in a lot of ways. It gets as unwieldy as playing a spell caster, which is rather the opposite of the point in some ways.
Giving them extra class skills does not give Fighters more options. As you put it the Fighter is not a skill class.
It gives them some out of combat, which is rather the point.
You just have to look at the fighter's non-feat class abilities, does armor and weapon training give the fighter new options? Nope.
No...but that doesn't mean that you can't make new Class Abilities that do.
D&D 3.75 otherwise known as Pathfinder is based around associated mechanics. Why do Fighters gain spell defences and Barbarians, Rangers and Paladins do not. I imagine they would all fight spell-casters and have the necessary training?
Uh...Fighters are the 'I trained for this' Class. The others don't train specifically to fight whatever happens to come up. Barbarians aren't trained at all necessarily, while Paladins are trained to fight evil things, and Rangers to fight their Favored Enemies...and both have mechanics to reflect that.
Making your Spell Defence house rule a disassociated mechanic. If all the martial classes had spell defence, then all the players would understand that warriors in this world are trained to fight magic-users.
Barbarians actually do have an option for that. And the others you list are spell casters, which could easily justify being less resistant to magic per se (well, Paladins are still better even at that, but for different reasons).
You have the option of feeding the Fighter skill points to be good at skills, or giving him training feats so he's good at skills.
Which is more thematic? For the Fighter, more feats.
Giving the Fighter more combat feats doesn't up his DPR...it just spreads his talents out. There really is nothing better then GWS + Imp Crit + Weapon Training for a fighter. That's it, that's all there is.
Every thing else is just to overcome defenses or obstacles, or to be better at things so he can bring Whack a Mole to bear.
Training feats just plug the many, many holes the Fighter has, and they ARE on theme...more feats for the fighter.
I made up three fighters using both kinds of feats, and DPR basically didn't change at all. What changed were different things he could do, defenses that were the equal of other classes, and ability to do things other then Whack The Mole.
Seriously, consider adding more feats. The effect on DPR will be next to nil. When you restrict feats to a certain pool, like Training feats, they are used for that purpose.
==Aelryinth
Adding more Feats doesn't add DPR in the vast majority of cases, and I never said it did.
Adding more Feats makes an already Feat-heavy Class surprisingly unwieldy to play. Which is, in fact, bad.
I said: Making feats scale like how spells scale gives the Fighter some dignity. don't think of it as extra feats, think of them as scaling feats.
You said: I'm not inherently against scaling Feats (I've made Vital Strike scale in my games, for example), I'm just far from convinced that they're the solution to Fighter's problems. Fighters do fine at DPR in combat, they need help in other areas.
You did implied it, nevertheless we agree that it doesn't affect DPR,
And you probably know what I'm gonna say next, it does not make the class unwieldy. I have played a Fighter from 1st-currently 5th and he currently has 15 feats, and is easy to play.
Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation, Power Attack, Iron Will, Furious Focus, Blind-Fighting are all static modifiers and you have things like Cleave and Great Cleave, once you have Great Cleave you don't need to worry about Cleave anymore its just a prerequisite.
In my first post I made a comment about brainwashing, people think feats have value, they do when you have lots of them.
Having 2 feats or 3 feats per level is an extremely radical idea but it will save the Fighter, just like how King Arthur saved Camelot when he pulled out the legendary sword Excalibur out of the stone.
Adding more Feats doesn't add DPR in the vast majority of cases, and I never said it did.
Adding more Feats makes an already Feat-heavy Class surprisingly unwieldy to play. Which is, in fact, bad.
I said: Making feats scale like how spells scale gives the Fighter some dignity. don't think of it as extra feats, think of them as scaling feats.
You said: I'm not inherently against scaling Feats (I've made Vital Strike scale in my games, for example), I'm just far from convinced that they're the solution to Fighter's problems. Fighters do fine at DPR in combat, they need help in other areas.
You did imply it, nevertheless we agree that it doesn't affect DPR,
And you probably know what I'm gonna say next, it does not make the class unwieldy. I have played a Fighter from 1st-currently 5th and he currently has 15 feats, and is easy to play.
Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation, Power Attack, Iron Will, Furious Focus, Blind-Fighting are all static modifiers and you have things like Cleave and Great Cleave, once you have Great Cleave you don't need to worry about Cleave anymore its just a prerequisite.
In my first post I made a comment about brainwashing, people think feats have value, they do when you have lots of them.
Having 2 feats or 3 feats per level is an extremely radical idea but it will save the Fighter, just like how King Arthur saved Camelot when he pulled out the legendary sword Excalibur out of the stone.
Become King Arthur pull the sword out of the stone and never look back.
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Adding more Feats doesn't add DPR in the vast majority of cases, and I never said it did.
Adding more Feats makes an already Feat-heavy Class surprisingly unwieldy to play. Which is, in fact, bad.
I said: Making feats scale like how spells scale gives the Fighter some dignity. don't think of it as extra feats, think of them as scaling feats.
You said: I'm not inherently against scaling Feats (I've made Vital Strike scale in my games, for example), I'm just far from convinced that they're the solution to Fighter's problems. Fighters do fine at DPR in combat, they need help in other areas.
You did implied it, nevertheless we agree that it doesn't affect DPR,
Scaling Feats are generally an idea applied to combat Feats, and thus to DPR increasers or maneuver Feats, not utility Feats, so it put my head in the wrong place to respond to that properly. Still, you're right, what I said is not entirely accurate. Sorry, my bad.
And you probably know what I'm gonna say next, it does not make the class unwieldy. I have played a Fighter from 1st-currently 5th and he currently has 15 feats, and is easy to play.
15 Feats can be done. It's a trifle complicated, but perhaps not unreasonably so (depending on what Feats you're talking about). 45 Feats, on the other hand, is at least as unwieldy as a Sorcerer's Spells Known (it's actually more choices, since a 15th level Sorcerer has only 34 non-cantrip spells known, though some Feats will be static), and is exactly the kind of thing that people who play the fighter for reasons of simplicity want to avoid.
Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation, Power Attack, Iron Will, Furious Focus, Blind-Fighting are all static modifiers and you have things like Cleave and Great Cleave, once you have Great Cleave you don't need to worry about Cleave anymore its just a prerequisite.
Those are almost all static Feats, it's true. But not all Feats are static, and indeed if getting 3 Feats a level, you're likely to run out of static Feats you want, and a lot of Feats are not static at all.
Additionally, if doing this, it rather necessitates radically redesigning several other Classes that make use of bonus Feats (Slayer, Ranger, Swashbuckler, Cavalier, and Gunslinger leap to mind), and that's very much not something I want to do. All those Classes work fine and do not need a radical redesign to be interesting and effective (okay, I had to House Rule Swashbuckler a bit, but I like the way it works with my existing House Rules).
This is not intended as redesign of the entire way martial characters function in the game, or a power boost to all martial characters, just a way to bring Fighters specifically up to par with those other other martial characters.
In my first post I made a comment about brainwashing, people think feats have value, they do when you have lots of them.
Having 2 feats or 3 feats per level is an extremely radical idea but it will save the Fighter, just like how King Arthur saved Camelot when he pulled out the legendary sword Excalibur out of the stone.
Just because an idea is new doesn't inherently make it good. I'm glad it works for you, but it doesn't serve the design goals I'm aiming for with this Fighter fix at all. If I as willing to add that degree of complexity, or to throw out something that necessitated the redesign of other Classes to that degree, believe me, this fix would look very different indeed.
So I'm gonna ask you to just drop this topic. I'm not doing this, for reasons I've stated, and therefore advocating it is distinctly off topic for a thread about what I am gonna do.
I absolutely welcome new suggestions for stuff, but arguing one particular suggestion that I've already rejected into the ground isn't productive.
Resilience (Ex): At 10th level, a Fighter can shake off the physical effects of certain attacks. If he makes a Fortitude saving throw against an attack that has a reduced effect on a successful save, he instead avoids the effect entirely.
As you may have noticed in my earlier posts in this thread, I'm a big proponent of Fighters in heavy armor. They are one of only 3 classes that start with Heavy proficiency and the only class that isn't penalized for using it. How do you feel about promoting their use of heavier armors with their class abilities in the same way Rangers, Inquisitors, and Barbarians receive benefits from lighter ones?
e.g.
Resilience (Ex): At 10th level, a Fighter can shake off the physical effects of certain attacks. If he makes a Fortitude saving throw against an attack that has a reduced effect on a successful save, he instead avoids the effect entirely. This ability can only be used if the fighter is wearing medium armor or heavy armor.
Might add a little flare to the Fighter's whole good-at-armor thing.
I hear you. I just thought it might make a full-plate feel like it did a little more than add +1 or +2 to AC. You can always slap an armored kilt on that mithral breastplate, right? Plus, it's kind of like the reverse restriction that so many classes already have. These guys have penalties in heavy armor:
Ranger
Barbarian
Inquisitor
Rogue
Monk
Druid (metallic anyway)
Bard
Summoner
Sorcerer
Witch
Wizard
So it'd be pretty unique to have class features that lighter-armor wearers couldn't benefit from.
But maybe I should be phrasing it differently. Rather than penalizing light armor would you do anything to give additional bonuses to the heavy-metal warrior?
Honestly, I think the idea here is too cluttered and too far concerned with maintaining compatibility to actually fix the problems that exist with the class.
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I hear you. I just thought it might make a full-plate feel like it did a little more than add +1 or +2 to AC. You can always slap an armored kilt on that mithral breastplate, right?
You can, but it doesn't make a lot of sense that you'd need to.
Plus, it's kind of like the reverse restriction that so many classes already have. These guys have penalties in heavy armor:
The restriction on armor type is based on weight and restrictiveness...I'm not sure how wearing something heavier and more restrictive can be logically required. Something being protective can, but that's a slightly different matter.
If I were going to go with something like this, it'd be an AC bonus based on the armor's non-magical armor bonus. Say...+1 AC for every 3 that the armor provides inherently? So +1 AC max for light armor, +2 from a Breastplate, and +3 from Full Plate.
But maybe I should be phrasing it differently. Rather than penalizing light armor would you do anything to give additional bonuses to the heavy-metal warrior?
That's not necessarily a bad idea, but I'm not sure it's a good plan for a baseline Fighter per se. Fighter's supposed to be generic and that would really force it into a particular thematic role.
Honestly, I think the idea here is too cluttered
I find this amusingly ironic considering that was one of my main complaints with your Fighter fix. :)
I think we probably have different definitions of clutter.
and too far concerned with maintaining compatibility to actually fix the problems that exist with the class.
I disagree. All I need to do to maintain compatibility is not replacing anything but Bravery. I can flat-out add as many things as I want.
I'm probably not going to add as many as you might prefer, but that's because I have a somewhat different idea of the appropriate power level for Fighter rather than out of some enslavement to backwards compatibility per se.
If you want a bonus based on heavy armor, that's what Armor Spec/DR come in...the old 3.5 feat was DR/1, 2, 3 in light, medium, heavy armor, just like adamantine.
Stacked with it, too.
A variant would be DR/1 per level of Armor Training for light armor, 2/- for Medium, 3/- for Heavy. You'd end up with DR 12/- with heavy armor, a clear and usable advantage.
Another thing is allowing the fighter to enhance his armor without access to tools. As long as its masterwork, he's good and can improve it.
A third thing is having his armor enhance his stat boosters. Say, adding +2 to all physical stat boosters, to a max of +6, at level 11, and to a max of +8 at 15. So, like, he gets the same boosts a sorc bloodline can get, or something. He'd be treating the armor like an exoskeleton instead of just armor.
Letting him wear Bracers of Armor and keep the AC vs incorps is another small extra he could have.
Another is that you could have his Armor Training bonus automatically enhance any masterwork+ armor he wears, but not count against the cap. That way, the fighter could get more non-enhancement bonuses on his armor. But, it could be an AC accelerant, so you'd have to be careful.
==Aelryinth
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So, there's been a lot of discussion as to what exactly I should add to the fighter, though the consensus certainly does seem to indicate I should add something in the way of utility and versatility, so I've tried to implement that to some degree. I'm still not sure I've gotten all the levels right, and shuffling some abilities around is very possible. Let's see what people have to say about the revised version:
The Fighter Class:
The Fighter receives 4 + Intelligence modifier skill points per level. They receive Knowledge (Local) Perception, and Sense Motive as additional class skills as well as a Good Will Save Progression. They do not possess the Bravery Class Feature, receiving the following features instead:
Man of the World (Ex): At 1st level, a Fighter defines his role in the world outside of combat, whether as simple farmer, gladiatorial champion, professional soldier, or pampered aristocrat. He picks one skill to add to his class skill list, and then selects 4 skills from that newly expanded skill list. When using these four skills, the Fighter may add a +1 bonus. This bonus increases by an additional +1 every 4 levels thereafter, to a maximum of +5 at 17th level.
Spell Defense (Ex): At 2nd level, a Fighter receives a +2 bonus on all saves vs. spells or spell-like abilities.
Martial Mastery (Ex): At 4th level, each combat feat the Fighter has that applies to a specific weapon (e.g., Weapon Focus) can be used with all weapons in the same weapon group.
Fearless (Ex): At 6th level, a Fighter is now immune to magical fear, and receives a +4 morale bonus to saves against non-magical fear.
Mobile Warrior (Ex): At 8th level, a Fighter gains a +10 foot bonus to movement speed, and may make 10 foot steps instead of 5 foot steps whenever a 5 foot step would ordinarily be allowed. He may also make 5 foot (though not 10 foot) steps in difficult terrain.
Quick Healer (Ex): At 10th level, whenever the Fighter is subject to a spell that cures hit point damage, he heals 1 additional point of damage per caster level. In the case of non-spell healing effects (such as channeled energy or lay on hands), he heals a number of additional points equal to the class level of the character performing the magical healing. Additionally, he heals double the normal amount of hit point and ability damage per day of natural healing. This ability does not affect fast healing or regeneration.
Resilience (Ex): At 12th level, a Fighter can shake off the physical effects of certain attacks. If he makes a Fortitude saving throw against an attack that has a reduced effect on a successful save, he instead avoids the effect entirely.
Indomitable Will (Ex): At 14th level, a Fighter gains a +4 bonus on Will saves to resist enchantment spells. This bonus stacks with all other modifiers, and this feature is identical to the Barbarian Class Feature of the same name.
Inspiration To Others (Ex): At 16th level, as long as a Fighter's allies can see or hear him, they all benefit from his Spell Defense, Fearless, Resilience, and Indomitable Will Class Features.
Combat Mastery (Ex): At 18th level, a Fighter is never considered an unaware combatant, can always act in the surprise round, and is never considered flat-footed (though he may still lose his Dex bonus to Armor Class). Additionally, he is considered to always roll a 20 on initiative checks.
Archetypes that replace Bravery, replace the Spell Defense Class Feature instead. If they replace it with a scaling bonus, instead of scaling they simply gain it at the full +5 bonus (or whatever other maximum the ability hits) at 2nd level. The Viking’s ‘Fearsome’ ability is an exception, only receiving its normal progression.
The Unbreakable Fighter simply doesn’t replace Spell Defenses (thus not gaining Unflinching), and gains Improved Resilience on Fortitude Saves at 13th, as Resilience stacks with Stalwart.
Lore Wardens replace all instances of Armor Training with their listed Maneuver Mastery progression. They replace Spell Defense with Expertise, Fearless with Know Thy Enemy (which they receive at 6th level), Resilience with Hair’s Breadth (which they receive at 12th), and Indomitable with Swift Lore. At 16th level, they also replace 'Inspiration to Others' with 'Tactical Advice' which allows them to share the benefits of Know Thy Enemy and Hair's Breadth with all their allies who can hear them and speak their language.
10th level is way too late for the healing bonus to kick in. 2nd or 3rd would be best...that way he actually benefits from it over his career.
You should base it on his level, not the caster level of the effect. That way HE is responsible for the extra healing.
6th: if he's fearless, make him fearless. It's still inferior to the paladin ability since he doesn't have an aura.
16th: A lesser version of this should be available pre-10th. Being a leader for 5% of the game is effectively not being a leader. Quantify it for non-casters if you must, but SOMETHING.
man of the World: perhaps you should stagger the choice of skills over levels, and add the option of adding a new class skill at those levels, too, since it's not upfront. Keep all the bonuses the same, however. After all, at 7th level, he may want to have a bonus in Diplomacy, that he could never have imagined at level 1.
==Aelryinth
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10th level is way too late for the healing bonus to kick in. 2nd or 3rd would be best...that way he actually benefits from it over his career.
I'm dealing with certain structural limitations, here. That said, I'm not averse to making it earlier if I can figure out a way to structure it properly.
You should base it on his level, not the caster level of the effect. That way HE is responsible for the extra healing.
The problem with that is that it eventually multiplies the effect of a wand of CLW exponentially (1d8+13 is more than three times as good as 1d8+1), which is potentially really bad game balance. The current version is taken from an existing, pretty well balanced, ability.
6th: if he's fearless, make him fearless. It's still inferior to the paladin ability since he doesn't have an aura.
I don't think Fighters should be immune to the Intimidate skill, which is what that would do. Indeed, I don't think Extraordinary abilities should be able to do that at all.
16th: A lesser version of this should be available pre-10th. Being a leader for 5% of the game is effectively not being a leader. Quantify it for non-casters if you must, but SOMETHING.
This again runs into a structural issue, but I'll consider it. I originally had it at 12th, but the other ideas I had needed to come in even earlier to be valuable.
man of the World: perhaps you should stagger the choice of skills over levels, and add the option of adding a new class skill at those levels, too, since it's not upfront. Keep all the bonuses the same, however. After all, at 7th level, he may want to have a bonus in Diplomacy, that he could never have imagined at level 1.
That's not a bad idea, maybe pick a new Class Skill only at 1st, but pick a new skill for the bonus every four levels (for a total of five skills eventually), or perhaps reduce the basic class skill list but let them pick a new skill each time individually...
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Perhaps you could cap the effect to doubling the maximum caster level bonus? Cure Light Wounds from a wand would become 1d8+1+5
That adds extra bookkeeping, and actually makes it weaker in terms of an actual Cleric healing them. Also, the wording would get weird with supernatural abilities.
Frankly, the way it works now suits me fine.
Then make a note that Intimidate [being an Ex skill] is an exception, the Fighter's immunity to fear doesn't apply to being intimidated [which actually makes sense, intimidation is WAY different from the way supernatural (including spell-based and funky EX monster ability based) fear works.]
Eh. That's pretty much the same, except that it would also work on Frightful Presence. I'm cool with the Fighter potentially being shaken by Frightful Presence (and not often, given his good Will Save and +4 bonus...a naked Wis 10 Fighter has a +9 Will Save vs. fear at 6th level), which is pretty much the worst that could happen with non-magical fear effects other than Intimidate (and he's immune to magical ones, remember).
Unless you know about some Extraordinary fear effects other than Frightful Presence that do worse than make you Shaken?
It's only an issue for the very, very cheapest healing magic, which means its the equivalent of a gold cost savings.
A caster can make the wand for half price, so they ALREADY get a bonus. Why is a fighter healing better then other classes all that unbalancing? It's still a gold cost outlay for him...it's simply LESS of one.
Plus, it means, for the Fighter, chugging a potion of healing will eventually be cheaper then getting stuck by a wand. That's a Good Thing.
If he isn't immune to Intimidate, the paladin shouldn't be, either. It's Ex because he gets it at level six, and only for himself.
On the other hand, immune to magical fear and immune to non-magical fear from things with a smaller Intimidate modifier then he has is a workable compromise.
As a kicker, let him use Strength as his Intimidate modifier instead of Cha. You could probably call the ability Grim.
On my fighter build, he starts with 2 skill points, but gets another one at level 2 and every 4 levels, along with another class skill of his choice. This means he ends up at the highest levels with more skills then a Ranger, but acquires his over his career, instead of all up front, keeping with a training theme.
==Aelryinth
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It's only an issue for the very, very cheapest healing magic, which means its the equivalent of a gold cost savings.
A caster can make the wand for half price, so they ALREADY get a bonus. Why is a fighter healing better then other classes all that unbalancing? It's still a gold cost outlay for him...it's simply LESS of one.
True in theory. I'm still a bit leery of allowing it, but you do make a point.
Plus, it means, for the Fighter, chugging a potion of healing will eventually be cheaper then getting stuck by a wand. That's a Good Thing.
Nah, the Wand's still cheaper. The Potion does wind up cheaper than other people being stuck by a wand, but the wand is still cheaper all things considered.
If he isn't immune to Intimidate, the paladin shouldn't be, either. It's Ex because he gets it at level six, and only for himself.
My issue is thematic, not mechanical. I don't think any non-magical effect should make one immune to normal non-magical fear.
On the other hand, immune to magical fear and immune to non-magical fear from things with a smaller Intimidate modifier then he has is a workable compromise.
That's a bit unwieldy, and perhaps overly necessitates Intimidate.
As a kicker, let him use Strength as his Intimidate modifier instead of Cha. You could probably call the ability Grim.
I just allow this as a general rule.
On my fighter build, he starts with 2 skill points, but gets another one at level 2 and every 4 levels, along with another class skill of his choice. This means he ends up at the highest levels with more skills then a Ranger, but acquires his over his career, instead of all up front, keeping with a training theme.
There's definitely some thematic stuff there, but I'm not giving out additional skill points, I don't think.
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I think being a f+@+ing badass who stares down all the dangers of a magical world without any magic of his own should be pretty much immune to fear of all kinds, but that's just me :P
I think that's more impressive if you can theoretically be afraid. It's the whole 'bravery isn't not being afraid, it's doing things even though you're afraid' thing.
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Okay, slightly revised third version:
The Fighter Class:
The Fighter receives 4 + Intelligence modifier skill points per level. They receive Knowledge (Local) Perception, and Sense Motive as additional class skills as well as a Good Will Save Progression. They do not possess the Bravery Class Feature, receiving the following features instead:
Man of the World (Ex): At 1st level, a Fighter defines his role in the world outside of combat, whether as simple farmer, gladiatorial champion, professional soldier, or pampered aristocrat. He picks one skill to add to his class skill list, and then selects one skill from that newly expanded skill list. When using this skill, the Fighter may add a +1 bonus. Every 4 levels thereafter you may apply this bonus to an additional Class Skill, and the bonus increases by an additional +1, to a maximum of +5 (and five skills effected) at 17th level.
Spell Defense (Ex): At 2nd level, a Fighter receives a +2 bonus on all saves vs. spells or spell-like abilities.
Quick Healer (Ex): At 3rd level, whenever the Fighter is subject to a spell that cures hit point damage, he heals 1 additional point of damage per caster level. In the case of non-spell healing effects (such as channeled energy or lay on hands), he heals a number of additional points equal to the class level of the character performing the magical healing. Additionally, he heals double the normal amount of hit point and ability damage per day of natural healing. This ability does not affect fast healing or regeneration.
Martial Mastery (Ex): At 4th level, each combat feat the Fighter has that applies to a specific weapon (e.g., Weapon Focus) can be used with all weapons in the same weapon group.
Fearless (Ex): At 6th level, a Fighter is now immune to magical fear, and receives a +4 morale bonus to saves against non-magical fear, as well as to the DC to effect him with Intimidate checks.
Mobile Warrior (Ex): At 8th level, a Fighter gains a +10 foot bonus to movement speed, and may make 10 foot steps instead of 5 foot steps whenever a 5 foot step would ordinarily be allowed. He may also make 5 foot (though not 10 foot) steps in difficult terrain.
Resilience (Ex): At 10th level, a Fighter can shake off the physical effects of certain attacks. If he makes a Fortitude saving throw against an attack that has a reduced effect on a successful save, he instead avoids the effect entirely.
Inspiration To Others (Ex): At 12th level, as long as a Fighter's allies can see or hear him, they all benefit from his Spell Defense, Fearless, and (if he has it) Indomitable Will Class Features.
Indomitable Will (Ex): At 14th level, a Fighter gains a +4 bonus on Will saves to resist enchantment spells. This bonus stacks with all other modifiers, and this feature is identical to the Barbarian Class Feature of the same name.
Warrior's Eye (Ex): At 16th level, the Fighter is constantly aware of the battle prowess of those around him, as well as their current health, from subtle cues of movement and expression, and knows both the Base Attack Bonus and current Hit Points of all people he can see.
Combat Mastery (Ex): At 18th level, a Fighter is never considered an unaware combatant, can always act in the surprise round, and is never considered flat-footed (though he may still lose his Dex bonus to Armor Class). Additionally, he is considered to always roll a 20 on initiative checks.
Archetypes that replace Bravery, replace the Spell Defense Class Feature instead. If they replace it with a scaling bonus, instead of scaling they simply gain it at the full +5 bonus (or whatever other maximum the ability hits) at 2nd level. The Viking’s ‘Fearsome’ ability is an exception, only receiving its normal progression.
The Unbreakable Fighter simply doesn’t replace Spell Defenses (thus not gaining Unflinching), and gains Improved Resilience on Fortitude Saves at 13th, as Resilience stacks with Stalwart.
Lore Wardens replace all instances of Armor Training with their listed Maneuver Mastery progression. They replace Spell Defense with Expertise, Fearless with Know Thy Enemy (which they receive at 6th level), Resilience with Hair’s Breadth (which they receive at 10th), and Indomitable with Swift Lore (at 14th level). Additionally, at 12th level, they replace 'Inspiration to Others' with 'Tactical Advice' which allows them to share the benefits of Know Thy Enemy with all their allies who can hear them and speak their language.
Hm... Just off the top of my head, how would you feel about a class feature that let the fighter treat any fear effect as "one step less" than its original effect? IE he's immune to fear effects that leave him shaken, if he's exposed to an effect that would leave him frightened he's instead shaken, if he's exposed to an effect that would leave him panicked he's instead frightened.
That would mean he's immune to casual use of intimidate, but only resistant to characters that specialize in using intimidate to apply the frightened effect.
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Hm... Just off the top of my head, how would you feel about a class feature that let the fighter treat any fear effect as "one step less" than its original effect? IE he's immune to fear effects that leave him shaken, if he's exposed to an effect that would leave him frightened he's instead shaken, if he's exposed to an effect that would leave him panicked he's instead frightened.
That would mean he's immune to casual use of intimidate, but only resistant to characters that specialize in using intimidate to apply the frightened effect.
Hmmm. That might be a simpler way to go about it actually, something like:
Fearless (Ex): At 6th level, a Fighter is now immune to magical fear, and reduces the severity of all non-magical fear effects that are applied to him by one degree (so shaken effects go away, frightened effects are reduced to shaken, and panicked effects are reduced to frightened).
That'd make him immune to Frightful Presence, but in a fairly logical fashion. Maybe I'll go with that.
In that case I'll also suggest renaming the ability, perhaps to something like Stubborn? To me Fearless is a little misleading, since it implies a complete lack of fear.
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In that case I'll also suggest renaming the ability, perhaps to something like Stubborn? To me Fearless is a little misleading, since it implies a complete lack of fear.
Maybe I'll just call it Bravery again. :) Or Courage.
Okay, my issue now is that I'm worrying I've gone a little too far.
Slayer winds up with bonuses to twice as many skills, and is up two skill points per level, plus he has Sneak Attack, but he has nothing to really compare to Quick Healer, Mobile Warrior, or Inspiration to Others. Still...that probably balances out in a lot of ways.
I think I'm gonna power down Lore Warden a little (I'll halve their Combat Maneuver bonuses, I think) but otherwise just go with it. How does that sound?
A lot of really good ideas here, Deadmanwalking!
Instead of making a Fighter immune to fear, how about letting them base their saves on their Fortitude instead? I think the fear immunity should stay with the Paladin class rather than Fighters in general.
(I'm thinking Fort being able to replace Will saves on things like fear effects because the Fighter knows: "Hey! I'm tough enough that I don't scare as easily!" and not because "I've got such an iron will I can't be frightened!")
Fighters being more vulnerable to fear then, say, a cleric with their Wis score up there does NOT make thematic sense, since throwing yourself into danger is what fighters are meant to do.
It's also worth noting that in 3.5, being completely immune to fear only cost a General Feat.
This ability is thus weaker then a feat.
Couldn't come up with a viable group buff around level 5 or 7, eh?
==Aelryinth
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A lot of really good ideas here, Deadmanwalking!
Thanks! It's tricky to get the balance on something like this precisely right. I'm still not sure I have, but I feel like I'm getting there.
Instead of making a Fighter immune to fear, how about letting them base their saves on their Fortitude instead? I think the fear immunity should stay with the Paladin class rather than Fighters in general.
(I'm thinking Fort being able to replace Will saves on things like fear effects because the Fighter knows: "Hey! I'm tough enough that I don't scare as easily!" and not because "I've got such an iron will I can't be frightened!")
Since I've given Fighter a Good Will Save...this would be a rather minimal buff. And possibly even a nerf on some Fighters.
Besides, like Aelrynith, I think the Fighter should be one of the bravest classes. Paladins are still braver, being immune to even mundane fear, Fighters are just a close second.
Fighters being more vulnerable to fear then, say, a cleric with their Wis score up there does NOT make thematic sense, since throwing yourself into danger is what fighters are meant to do.
Yeah, that was sort of my thought process.
It's also worth noting that in 3.5, being completely immune to fear only cost a General Feat.
This ability is thus weaker then a feat.
Eh. They've shifted design principles somewhat since 3.5, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't publish a Feat like that in Pathfinder. It's certainly not anywhere close to the best ability I'm giving the Fighter (that's probably Mobile Warrior, or maybe the Good Will Save), but it's a bit better than a Feat.
Couldn't come up with a viable group buff around level 5 or 7, eh?
I could in theory, but I don't want it to be a self-buff, and that necessitates it only providing other people with things the Fighter already has. Besides which, 12th and 16th levels were the hard ones to come up with.
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I think it might be easier, and at least potentially more thematic, if Quick Healer were replaced by something like:
Shrug It Off (Ex) Whenever the fighter takes lethal hit point damage, he may immediately convert some of it to nonlethal damage, up to 1 point per level. This is not an action, but the fighter can only use this ability once per round. A helpless or unconscious fighter cannot use shrug it off.
It's also worth noting that in 3.5, being completely immune to fear only cost a General Feat.
==Aelryinth
Which feat? Thanks in advance.
Also, Death Trance from Oriental Adventures.
==Aelryinth
Fearless
Thank you!
DMW I think you have some very interesting ideas here!
The shift to 4+ skills is a no-brainer. Honestly, it just needs to happen.
I love Man of the World. I find it to be thematic and interesting, and different but powerful when compared to other skill-based class abilities. +5 to 5 skills vs the normal +10 to one skill is definitely interesting. I think it would synergize nicely with the Background Skills optional rule from PU, but that's neither here nor there.
Spell defense . . . ok. I feel like it's a little flat, but it's definitely useful.
Quick Healer makes me happy. It's a healing mechanic that is unique, though I agree with Aelryinth that it should be based on fighter level, not caster level. It's the fighter's class ability, after all. In all honesty, that line is kind of moot for me because, in most parties, the fighter and the healer will be the same level, so that line only matters in edge cases like NPC healers or when the party healer isn't a full-caster-level class. I think that rolling in a burst self-heal of some kind at higher levels would be cool, and I especially liked Shisumo's suggestion of converting lethal to non-lethal, which feels very much like a tough-man thing. More book-keeping, maybe, but also more cinematic and dynamic.
Martial Mastery is a heck yes. Weapon groups is a painfully underused idea, and this takes advantage of it. Done and done.
Fearless . . . Gah. I'll get to this in a minute.
I'm totally down with Resilience, and would go so far as to say that I'd hand this over earlier and have an improved version come later. A few 3.5 classes had Mettle, which was this, starting at level 2. I find it comparable to Evasion, since Ref throws happen a lot more frequently but the partial effects of a Fort-based attack tend to be nastier.
Inspiration To Others . . . Also in a minute.
Indomitable Will, also in a minute.
I like the flavor of Warrior's Eye, hate the crunch. Abilities that grant meta-game knowledge are so boring to me. If this actually granted some kind of mechanical benefit I'd be interested, but this is so blase, especially for a 12th-level ability.
Combat Mastery seems like a combination of Uncanny Dodge and the Kensai's Iaijutsu Master, which I'm totally fine with. Cool.
Ok. Fearless, Inspiration To Others, and Indomitable Will. Let's do a quick comparison.
For starters, let's pull the Paladin back a bit. We're going to take away his spells. There, now he's a martial character!
DMWF 1: 4+ skills, Bonus Feat, Man of the World. Cool.
P 1: 2+ skills, Smite, some fluff and a SLA that nobody really cares about. Also cool.
DMWF 2: Bonus Feat, Spell Defense. Hey, +2 vs spells! Nice!
P 2: Divine Grace, Lay on Hands. As long as the Paladin has at least 12 CHA, this is a +1 to every save. No stipulations, no quibbling. And nobody builds a paladin with just 12 CHA. Add to that some burst healing/damage and this is a sweet level.
DMWF 3: Quick Healer, Armor Training. A nifty and thematic healing ability, but still depends on other party members to keep him alive during the fight. Also, the Fighter becomes more mobile than the Paladin due to ignoring penalties from Medium Armor.
P 3: Aura of Courage, Divine Health. The Paladin just became immune to a massive chunk of possible things that could ever affect him, and simultaneously grants a sizeable bonus to anyone fighting nearby. His burst healing now also removes a status effect. Nice.
DMWF 4: Bonus Feat, Martial Mastery. The Fighter becomes more versatile, which is great!
P 4: Channel Energy. The Paladin's burst healing becomes more bursty. Nice.
DMWF 5: Weapon Training. The Fighter gets a bump to attack and damage, which will scale with his level up to +4 at best and keep him versatile with a selection of weapons. Nice.
P 5: Divine Bond. The Paladin gets a magical bump to attack and damage, or +1d6 of elemental damage, or an increased threat range, or a variety of other scaling combat benefits, which will scale with his level up to +6 at best and keep him versatile with any weapon he picks up, though not all the time (80 minutes/day at most). Nice.
DMWF 6: Bonus Feat, Fearless. The Fighter gets the thing that the Paladin got 3 levels ago, but with more restrictions, and not as helpful to anyone else.
P 6: Mercy. The Paladin's burst heal (which is now up to 3d6) heals a more potent status effect.
DMWF 8: Bonus Feat, Mobile Warrior. An awesome mobility ability, unique to the Fighter. Nice.
P 8: Aura of Resolve. The Paladin is now immune to charms, and grants a bonus to anyone nearby.
DMWF 10: Bonus Feat, Resilience. The Fighter gets a little better at dealing with things with a Fort save. The Paladin has been immune to some of these things for seven levels.
P 11: Aura of Justice. The Paladin can grant everyone nearby his awesome Smite ability.
DMWF 12: Inspiration to Others. The Fighter now grants the same bonuses to fear that the Paladin has been granting for nine levels, plus a +2 vs spells in general.
DMWF 14: Bonus Feat, Indomitable Will. The Fighter now grants +4 vs all enchantments, half of which the Paladin has been immune to and protecting from for six levels.
P 14: Aura of Faith. The Paladin has and grants to her allies a situational defense removal against certain enemies.
DMWF 16: Bonus Feat, Warrior's Eye. The Fighter gains a meta-game ability of questionable usefulness.
P 17: Aura of Righteousness. The Paladin gains situational DR, and becomes immune to and grants bonuses to the other half of enchantment.
DMWF 18: Combat Mastery. A very nice ability overall.
Of the abilities that aren't mostly equal (Spell Defense/Divine Grace ["equal"], Fearless/Aura of Courage, Weapon Training/Divine Bond, Indomitable Will/Aura of Resolve & Righteousness), the Fighter gets 11 bonus feats, +2 vs spells, some added mobility from armor training and Mobile Warrior, a bonus to Fort save things, some wiggle room about what weapon he uses, a healing ability that ranges from meh (40-80 HP per day) to alright, depending on what support he has, and the ability to never be caught unaware in combat. The Paladin gets one of the best burst damage abilities in the game, a healing ability that ranges from ok (100d6 HP plus status removal for single use) to pretty good (50d6 HP plus status removal per party member), and two abilities that make everybody nearby more effective combatants by a big margin.
And then, since we're comparing whole classes and not gimped ones, we add back in Paladin spells.
I like a lot of these ideas. I really do. But I am so tired of people trying to "fix" the fighter by giving him the watered-down abilities of other classes. I am tired of people being afraid to give him truly awe-inspiring abilities because they feel for some reason that the Fighter as released by Paizo is anything remotely close to balanced against other classes. You know why people like playing paladins over fighters? Fighters are supposed to be the best at combat. It's literally part of their name. But it's Paladins that one-round-KO CR 24 Great Red Wyrms.
Feats don't make up for real class features. I sincerely hope that you will use what you have here as a starting point and build up. But whatever direction you go, I'll be more than happy to steal a few of these ideas :)
EDIT
As a sidenote, if you haven't already then I would strongly suggest looking up the kirthfinder rules and reading his take on the fighter class. It's the first and only fighter rebuild that I've considered over-powered, and it's also the first and only fighter rebuild that actually made me want to play a fighter.
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DMW I think you have some very interesting ideas here!
Well, I try. :)
The shift to 4+ skills is a no-brainer. Honestly, it just needs to happen.
Absolutely agreed.
I love Man of the World. I find it to be thematic and interesting, and different but powerful when compared to other skill-based class abilities. +5 to 5 skills vs the normal +10 to one skill is definitely interesting. I think it would synergize nicely with the Background Skills optional rule from PU, but that's neither here nor there.
Yeah, I'm actually really pleased with it. Especially the modular nature of deciding what skills it helps with.
Spell defense . . . ok. I feel like it's a little flat, but it's definitely useful.
I'm looking for something about as good as a good Feat, but not usually available as one.
Quick Healer makes me happy. It's a healing mechanic that is unique, though I agree with Aelryinth that it should be based on fighter level, not caster level. It's the fighter's class ability, after all. In all honesty, that line is kind of moot for me because, in most parties, the fighter and the healer will be the same level, so that line only matters in edge cases like NPC healers or when the party healer isn't a full-caster-level class. I think that rolling in a burst self-heal of some kind at higher levels would be cool, and I especially liked Shisumo's suggestion of converting lethal to non-lethal, which feels very much like a tough-man thing. More book-keeping, maybe, but also more cinematic and dynamic.
The problem with making it fighter level is what it does to Wands and Potions. It eventually more than quadruples the effectiveness of Wands of CLW. That's potentially really problematic.
Martial Mastery is a heck yes. Weapon groups is a painfully underused idea, and this takes advantage of it. Done and done.
Yeah, I'm pleased with that one as well.
Fearless . . . Gah. I'll get to this in a minute.
Okay. :)
I'm totally down with Resilience, and would go so far as to say that I'd hand this over earlier and have an improved version come later. A few 3.5 classes had Mettle, which was this, starting at level 2. I find it comparable to Evasion, since Ref throws happen a lot more frequently but the partial effects of a Fort-based attack tend to be nastier.
I agree that it's comparable to Evasion. But several Classes don't get that until around 10th level (Rangers get it at 9th, for example), and the lower-level abilities seemed more thematically needed at lower levels.
Inspiration To Others . . . Also in a minute.
Indomitable Will, also in a minute.
Also okay. :)
I like the flavor of Warrior's Eye, hate the crunch. Abilities that grant meta-game knowledge are so boring to me. If this actually granted some kind of mechanical benefit I'd be interested, but this is so blase, especially for a 12th-level ability.
It's a pretty awesome non-combat ability as-is, actually. And is intended to be so. Knowing the approximate level and toughness of foes is extremely handy for gauging who you're dealing with. As for the meta-aspect, Slayers already have an ability to judge current hp, so that genie's out of the bottle, I don't see a reason Fighters couldn't do the same.
Combat Mastery seems like a combination of Uncanny Dodge and the Kensai's Iaijutsu Master, which I'm totally fine with. Cool.
Glad you like it. :)
Ok. Fearless, Inspiration To Others, and Indomitable Will. Let's do a quick comparison.
Sure, let's. :)
Of the abilities that aren't mostly equal (Spell Defense/Divine Grace ["equal"], Fearless/Aura of Courage, Weapon Training/Divine Bond, Indomitable Will/Aura of Resolve & Righteousness), the Fighter gets 11 bonus feats, +2 vs spells, some added mobility from armor training and Mobile Warrior, a bonus to Fort save things, some wiggle room about what weapon he uses, a healing ability that ranges from meh (40-80 HP per day) to alright, depending on what support he has, and the ability to never be caught unaware in combat. The Paladin gets one of the best burst damage abilities in the game, a healing ability that ranges from ok (100d6 HP plus status removal for single use) to pretty good (50d6 HP plus status removal per party member), and two abilities that make everybody nearby more effective combatants by a big margin.
And then, since we're comparing whole classes and not gimped ones, we add back in Paladin spells.
The Paladin's got some disadvantages you're not taking into consideration, though. For one, Divine Bond is not remotely equivalent to Weapon Training.
Divine Bond is inherently less of a bonus to hit/damage pretty much always given the expected enhancement bonus a weapon is likely to have. The weapon properties are good, but not the same thing. Additionally, assuming a 4 encounter day (which is Pathfinder's core assumption), up until 17th level, you don't even have it all the time. Weapon Training can (and will) also be improved by Gloves of Dueling, making it a +6 to hit and damage at higher levels. Combined with the Weapon Specialization tree, the fighter winds up at +7 to hit, and +10 damage over the Paladin whenever there's not a Smite going.
Secondly, there are skills, which this version of the Fighter is just so much better on than the Paladin it's not even funny.
Thirdly, while the Paladin's Smite is amazing, it's also only usable on something like half of the foes you face. Even ignoring the usage per day limitations (which are admittedly not a big deal), the target selection limitation remains a very big deal.
Fourthly, the Fighter's mobility is so much better than the Paladin's it's not even funny, as is his AC vs.anything but Smite targets.
And that's all off the top of my head. The simple fact is that Paladins have some rather serious restrictions and foes they are not good at fighting, which Fighters do not have nearly as many of.
I like a lot of these ideas. I really do. But I am so tired of people trying to "fix" the fighter by giving him the watered-down abilities of other classes. I am tired of people being afraid to give him truly awe-inspiring abilities because they feel for some reason that the Fighter as released by Paizo is anything remotely close to balanced against other classes.
I have every intention of making the Fighter good and effective. But y'know what are also good and effective Classes? The Slayer and Barbarian. And they're much better bases for comparison with the Fighter than the Paladin in a couple of ways, the most important being that Paladins are specialists.
Paladins excel at getting huge offensive bonuses against certain kinds of target a few times a day (it's certainly not something they have vs. every enemy, or even every fight in some cases), and Fighters aren't (and shouldn't be) built to specialize like that. Barbarians are good against everything when raging, and Slayers are good against everything when using Studied Target, and both those are usable all the time by 7th level or so, making them much more valid comparisons.
You know why people like playing paladins over fighters? Fighters are supposed to be the best at combat. It's literally part of their name. But it's Paladins that one-round-KO CR 24 Great Red Wyrms.
That's not exactly a fair comparison. The Paladin is, as mentioned, a specialist at killing Evil Dragons (or Evil Outsiders or Undead) and any Fighter build that can match him at it is gonna be hideously overpowered, since he'll be able to do it vs. anyone and the Paladin can only do it vs. those very specific foes.
The ideal way this ends is that, if fighting an Evil foe and smiting the Paladin should do better than the Fighter, otherwise the Fighter should do better. That's sorta how it works for Paladins and Barbarians already, in fact.
Feats don't make up for real class features. I sincerely hope that you will use what you have here as a starting point and build up. But whatever direction you go, I'll be more than happy to steal a few of these ideas :)
I agree that Feats don't, one for one, make up for real class features, but 11 Feats sure as heck make up for several of them. And I don't feel that the current version is notably worse than the closest Class equivalents (Barbarian and Slayer), which makes me leery of further enhancement.
As a sidenote, if you haven't already then I would strongly suggest looking up the kirthfinder rules and reading his take on the fighter class. It's the first and only fighter rebuild that I've considered over-powered, and it's also the first and only fighter rebuild that actually made me want to play a fighter.
I've looked at it, but not in a while. Maybe I'll take another look to refresh my memory.
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Okay, since I have a game tomorrow, here's Version 4, which I think I'll go with for now:
The Fighter Class:
The Fighter receives 4 + Intelligence modifier skill points per level. They receive Knowledge (Local) Perception, and Sense Motive as additional class skills as well as a Good Will Save Progression. They do not possess the Bravery Class Feature, receiving the following features instead:
Man of the World (Ex): At 1st level, a Fighter defines his role in the world outside of combat, whether as simple farmer, gladiatorial champion, professional soldier, or pampered aristocrat. He picks one skill to add to his class skill list, and then selects one skill from that newly expanded skill list. When using this skill, the Fighter may add a +1 bonus. Every 4 levels thereafter you may apply this bonus to an additional Class Skill, and the bonus increases by an additional +1, to a maximum of +5 (and five skills effected) at 17th level.
Spell Defense (Ex): At 2nd level, a Fighter receives a +2 bonus on all saves vs. spells or spell-like abilities.
Quick Healer (Ex): At 3rd level, whenever the Fighter is subject to a spell that cures hit point damage, he heals 1 additional point of damage per caster level. In the case of non-spell healing effects (such as channeled energy or lay on hands), he heals a number of additional points equal to the class level of the character performing the magical healing. Additionally, he heals double the normal amount of hit point and ability damage per day of natural healing. This ability does not affect fast healing or regeneration.
Martial Mastery (Ex): At 4th level, each combat feat the Fighter has that applies to a specific weapon (e.g., Weapon Focus) can be used with all weapons in the same weapon group.
Fearless (Ex): At 6th level, a Fighter is now immune to magical fear, and reduces the severity of all non-magical fear effects that are applied to him by one degree (so shaken effects go away, frightened effects are reduced to shaken, and panicked effects are reduced to frightened).
Mobile Warrior (Ex): At 8th level, a Fighter gains a +10 foot bonus to movement speed, and may make 10 foot steps instead of 5 foot steps whenever a 5 foot step would ordinarily be allowed. He may also make 5 foot (though not 10 foot) steps in difficult terrain.
Resilience (Ex): At 10th level, a Fighter can shake off the physical effects of certain attacks. If he makes a Fortitude saving throw against an attack that has a reduced effect on a successful save, he instead avoids the effect entirely.
Inspiration To Others (Ex): At 12th level, as long as a Fighter's allies can see or hear him, they all benefit from his Spell Defense, Fearless, and (if he has it) Indomitable Will Class Features.
Indomitable Will (Ex): At 14th level, a Fighter gains a +4 bonus on Will saves to resist enchantment spells. This bonus stacks with all other modifiers, and this feature is identical to the Barbarian Class Feature of the same name.
Warrior's Eye (Ex): At 16th level, the Fighter is constantly aware of the battle prowess of those around him, as well as their current health, from subtle cues of movement and expression, and knows both the Base Attack Bonus and current Hit Points of all people he can see.
Combat Mastery (Ex): At 18th level, a Fighter is never considered an unaware combatant, can always act in the surprise round, and is never considered flat-footed (though he may still lose his Dex bonus to Armor Class). Additionally, he is considered to always roll a 20 on initiative checks.
Archetypes that replace Bravery, replace the Spell Defense Class Feature instead. If they replace it with a scaling bonus, instead of scaling they simply gain it at the full +5 bonus (or whatever other maximum the ability hits) at 2nd level. The Viking’s ‘Fearsome’ ability is an exception, only receiving its normal progression.
The Unbreakable Fighter simply doesn’t replace Spell Defenses (thus not gaining Unflinching), and gains Improved Resilience on Fortitude Saves at 13th, as Resilience stacks with Stalwart.
Lore Wardens replace Quick Healer and all instances of Armor Training with their listed Maneuver Mastery progression. They replace Spell Defense with Expertise, Fearless with Know Thy Enemy (which they receive at 6th level), Resilience with Hair’s Breadth (which they receive at 10th), and Indomitable with Swift Lore. Additionally, at 12th level, they replace 'Inspiration to Others' with 'Tactical Advice' which allows them to share the benefits of Know Thy Enemy with all their allies who can hear them and speak their language.
For Quick Healer, add this in.
At 3rd level, whenever the Fighter is subject to a spell that cures hit point damage, he heals 1 additional point of damage per caster level, and the caster level is considered to be the higher of his level or the caster's level. In the case of non-spell healing effects (such as channeled energy or lay on hands), he heals a number of additional points equal to the class level of the character performing the magical healing or his own level, whichever is higher. Additionally, he heals double the normal amount of hit point and ability damage per day of natural healing. This ability does not affect fast healing or regeneration.
This gives him a small to moderate bonus on wands and potions that scales with level, but not the +10 bonus you seem so fearful of, since maximum effect from CLW is d8+5.
==Aelryinth
You can draw an artificial line between magical items and living casters if you want to.
But really, all you're doing is gold savings. He spends less on CLW wands then other classes. He still can't USE one.
It's just gold savings.
if you really want to tone it down, just give him +1 hp/level from Cures, up to the maximum permitted by the spell. That tops out his maximum bonus from CLW at d8+6. Effectively getting double max out of the spell, as opposed to triple.
You could also just add his level to the caster level of the effect, which will run into the max bonus and stop.
It's really only an issue for the clw wand. The bonus is immaterial enough that it's really not going to be an issue with higher level spells.
And the way I meant to you to interpret it as was "He gets a +1 hp/bonus per caster level. That caster level is considered to be the higher of his own level OR the caster's level. So he'd get +15 HP off a high level priests CLW, +7 HP if he's 7th and a 2nd level adept tries to cure him.
What's happening with your wording is you're trying to give him a bonus if someone LIVING heals him, while trying NOT to give him a bonus if he gets his healing from magical items. Perfectly OK for the 15th level priest to give him bonus hit points, but if he's got a wand, woe is him!!!
Which means you're making him dependent on his walking first aid kit instead of self-reliant again.
You should be endorsing his use of those common magic items and using them more effectively then other classes. It reduces his dependence factor down. He's already FORCED to pay for healing, unlike many other classes (almost all of them, actually), so it stands to reason he'd be better at taking advantage of low plentiful magic then others.
And really, if he can get d8+21 HP out of a CLW wand while others are spamming Cure Critical Charges to try and equal him, I really don't have a problem with that.
After all, the paladin can cure 60 hp at a go, the Ranger can cast CCW, and the barb can eat spells to heal himself, or rage cycle to spam heal himself.
Saving some pocket change on wands isn't going to break ANYTHING.
==Aelryinth
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I'm still a little hesitant, no other Class grants a flat and extensive discount on magical healing with no per-day limitation. There are Item Creation Feats, but those are a very specific thing, only reduce the price by half, and take time to use.
On the other hand, this is limited pretty specifically to one specific variety of magic item...
And furthermore keep in mind he still doesn't have the intrinsic ability to actually USE the item.
Honestly, it's only going to be a serious change at later levels, and by then a CLW wand is so cheap it's basically immaterial.
==Aelryinth
If it's a class feature that only presents a credible bonus at a level where the bonus is basically immaterial I don't really see the point of adding it in.
Flavor and speed of recovery. THat's all there is to it.
I also think it should affect Heal Deadly Wounds from the Heal Skill, but that's me.
==Aelryinth
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It more than doubles the effectiveness of Wands of CLW by level 6 (and almost doubles them at level 5). That's quite a bit before Wands are cheap enough that they don't matter, generally speaking.
I'm cool with it applying to Treat Deadly Wounds, though. I'll have it double that just like it does other natural healing.
Taking the cost from 3 gp a hit point to 1.5 a hit point isn't going to break anything.
I'm just not sure where your resistance to the idea is coming in. So it takes him 3 less rounds to use his Good Stick that he STILL has to hand to the cleric or ranger to actually use.
What's the difficulty? Other characters get to heal themselves for free, he gets to heal himself for less money. Is it really going to have any impact on your game?
==Aelryinth
I would expand martial mastery to include all weapons, period.
This makes the fighter easier to play, because there are fewer situational bonuses.
This also makes the fighter more versatile, because he's not locked into a single weapon or even weapon group -- he can be a master of all weapons.
I would expand martial mastery to include all weapons, period.
This makes the fighter easier to play, because there are fewer situational bonuses.
This also makes the fighter more versatile, because he's not locked into a single weapon or even weapon group -- he can be a master of all weapons.
Which also isn't a bad idea, and brings Weapon Spec back for the Fighter to make an actual choice - I am a Master of the Longsword!
Weapon Groups are unwieldy, I agree. When I posted my fix, it was Primary Group, which were the weapons the Fighter CHOSE for the group, and Secondary Groups. He could spend skill points to add weapons to the Primary Group, or got them every few levels with his Bravery/Resolve modifier.
Any weapon with Weapon Focus was automatically in the primary group, and doubled the Primary Weapon Group bonus. Quick and easy.
==Aelryinth
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It's basically a design principle thing. Upping the cost-effectiveness of consumables that significantly isn't something the game is designed to handle. Nobody else can do it, certainly not as a baseline Class Feature, and it can have weird effects on the game economy.
That's all in general to some degree, not mostly about this specific feature. I'm generally very leery of changing the basic way the game functions without very thoroughly examining all the implications of that decision.
Which is why the vast majority of my additions to the Class are things that exist in the game already in one form or another (often rather obscure things, but the point stands), rather than simply brand new stuff from out of nowhere. The only similarly game-changing ability is Mobile Warrior, and I thought long and hard on that one before adding it.
Will doubling or tripling the benefit per gp of Wands of CLW for a Fighter break the game? Probably not. But will it change the Class's emphasis? Exactly what effects will it have?
None of this means I won't change it to being based on the Fighter's own level, but it's certainly why I'm thinking it over carefully.