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As it looks like there isn't going to be an official version of the Ninja updated for the changes in Unchained, i thought I'd go through the class and do it myself.
Alignment, hit dice, proficiencies and class skills should all remain unchanged.
The original Pathfinder Ninja had surprisingly few alterations from the rogue, trap finding is lost for poison use, Evasion makes way for a Ki pool. Trap sense is swapped for No Trace, and rogue talents are swapped with Ninja Tricks. All this could remain the same in an Unchained Ninja.
The only real issue with a Ninja based off an unchained rogue is that the unchained rogue loses trap sense for danger sense. This isn't really a problem though, as we swap the new Danger Sense for No Trace, as it appears at exactly the same place and has the same progression as the old Trap Sense.
So the difference is in the new rogue abilities. All you need to do, is add them in at the same levels the Rogue would have got them. I don't see any of them being thematically out of place on a Ninja, in fact, they all fit perfectly.
The last issue would be Ninja Tricks. Any Ninja tricks which share a name with an existing Rogue talent would have to use the new Unchained version of that talent. And if the Ninja selected the Rogue Talent Ninja trick, then they would be restricted to selecting from the valid Rogue talents listed or mentioned in Pathfinder Unchained (Talents are on pages 20-22 and the sidebar for other talents is on p.24.
Comments?
Seems like a fairly cut and dry alteration to the class for homebrew use. No real objection to what you have said.
Yeah, I thought it'd be hard work to do it, but then when I looked at the ninja, old rogue and unchained rogue side by side I realized it was a bit of a no brainer really..
Just a shame Paizo have no plans to update the ninja with the new unchained abilities.
I agree with Game Master Moose, and would rather go by the option B) on how Ninja's Edge should work. Since original ninja was technically a rogue more focused on ki mysticism and assassination tactics, it would make most sense that ninja could get a higher edge only on skills that are related to that spectrum of expertise. I might add Craft (alchemy) because of Poison Use (or craft (poisons) if necessary to specify, I'm not sure).
I agree with the OP for the most part. However, in my version, I am leaving out Rogue's Edge altogether. The Ninja needs to have Finesse Training, but the power and access of the ki pool should not be underestimated. All the more so, as it seems the Unchained Rogue can no longer take the Ki pool Rogue talent. Ninjas have Ki, and Rogues have Edge.
Incidentally, in our games the Katana and Wakazashi are finesseable. Wee!
EDIT...of course, the Wakazashi is finesseable anyway....cause those are the rules. Doi!
I've always thought the ninja should've been a better blend of monk and rogue. With the release of the ACG and the hybrid classes I thought there was a missed opportunity to show the ninja it's proper love. Now in the aftermath of Unchained I think the ball was dropped and kicked out of reach.
My GM allowed me to apply the unchained rogue additions to the ninja. If I pressed him for further changes I'd ask to trade rogues edge for monk style strikes (replacing flurry with full attack) and replace rogue talents with ki powers or just add them to the list ninja trick options.
Although currently I am loving my multiclass variant "unchained" ninja with magus secondary abilities (I need to learn the forum appropriate abbreviation) and how I plan to abuse the acrobatics and stealth skill unlocks.
Honestly I am planning to make a multiclass monk/rogue both with unchained rules. Just take the ninja trick rogue talent for something like vanishing trick and boom instant ninja.
Your pool will be pretty bad for it, but yeah, that works. Interesting that Ninja Trick is on the list, but Ki isn't tho.
Remember, not all Ninja tricks require ki. Together with the news that there seems no intention of giving us an official Unchained Ninja, it's clear to me that Paizo is distancing the already strong Ninja from the newly strong Unchained Rogue.
Personally, I think the Ninja needs the Finesse Training from the Unchained Rogue. After that, I believe the superiority of some ki talents is at least equivalent to the other Unchained Rogue goodies. Anyway, that is what I will be proposing to my group.
By the way, anyone ever notice Ninjas can take Rogue talents, but not Advanced talents. And Rogues can take Ninja tricks, but not Master tricks. I think it shows some perspective of how they want the Rogue and Ninja to remain distinct.
With the new powers and rebalanced Rogue talents from Unchained, the Rogue would obviate the Ninja if they let them continue to acquire ki.
I've always thought the ninja should've been a better blend of monk and rogue. With the release of the ACG and the hybrid classes I thought there was a missed opportunity to show the ninja it's proper love. Now in the aftermath of Unchained I think the ball was dropped and kicked out of reach.
My GM allowed me to apply the unchained rogue additions to the ninja. If I pressed him for further changes I'd ask to trade rogues edge for monk style strikes (replacing flurry with full attack) and replace rogue talents with ki powers or just add them to the list ninja trick options.
Although currently I am loving my multiclass variant "unchained" ninja with magus secondary abilities (I need to learn the forum appropriate abbreviation) and how I plan to abuse the acrobatics and stealth skill unlocks.
I second the motion for a new Ninja hybrid class. Unchained Monk and Unchained Rogue hybridized for assassination would be awesome. Looking back at the Ninja, it sort of is a combo of Monk and Rogue, before they conceived of hybrid classes (or at least publishing them).
I second the motion for a new Ninja hybrid class. Unchained Monk and Unchained Rogue hybridized for assassination would be awesome. Looking back at the Ninja, it sort of is a combo of Monk and Rogue, before they conceived of hybrid classes (or at least publishing them).I've always thought the ninja should've been a better blend of monk and rogue. With the release of the ACG and the hybrid classes I thought there was a missed opportunity to show the ninja it's proper love. Now in the aftermath of Unchained I think the ball was dropped and kicked out of reach.
My GM allowed me to apply the unchained rogue additions to the ninja. If I pressed him for further changes I'd ask to trade rogues edge for monk style strikes (replacing flurry with full attack) and replace rogue talents with ki powers or just add them to the list ninja trick options.
Although currently I am loving my multiclass variant "unchained" ninja with magus secondary abilities (I need to learn the forum appropriate abbreviation) and how I plan to abuse the acrobatics and stealth skill unlocks.
By the way, anyone ever notice Ninjas can take Rogue talents, but not Advanced talents.
Advanced Talents: The ninja can select a rogue talent from the list of Advanced Talents in place of a ninja trick. The ninja cannot select a rogue talent that has the same name as a ninja trick. The ninja cannot select improved evasion unless she has evasion (either as a class feature or as a ninja master trick).
Also, Apocryphile, you left off Light Steps.
-Matt
By the way, anyone ever notice Ninjas can take Rogue talents, but not Advanced talents.Advanced Talents: The ninja can select a rogue talent from the list of Advanced Talents in place of a ninja trick. The ninja cannot select a rogue talent that has the same name as a ninja trick. The ninja cannot select improved evasion unless she has evasion (either as a class feature or as a ninja master trick).I'll be damned, I didn't notice that. However, after carefully reviewing the Rogue talents in UC AGAIN, I don't see a corresponding "Master Tricks" Rogue talent.
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We have a ninja in our campaign and he is interested in making an Unchained Ninja. Are there any balance issues we should worry about in allowing such a transformation?
As discussed in this thread, the Ninja is already an improved Rogue. The ki powered Ninja tricks are pretty juicy, and compare favorably with the Unchained Rogue's new stuff. So, I wouldn't give the Unchained Ninja all the new gadgets. However, the Ninja as written is now behind the Unchained Rogue, so it needs some Unchaining.
For my money, the most obvious and important upgrade is the Finesse and Dex to damage. IMO that is enough; I've played a Ninja through 11th level, and she is pretty bad ass. She has Weapon Finesse, and I am desperate to get Slashing Grace. Giving the Unchained Finesse Rogue ability would just give her more room to maximize it.
Can treat the ninja as an archetype.
poison use replaces trapfinding
ki pool replaces evasion
rogue talents replace ninja tricks
no trace replaces trap sense
gain light steps for free
master tricks replace advanced talents
hidden master replaces master strike
Balance is an issue. I'd say at the very least, they shouldn't receive rogue's edge. Maybe they don't receive the 3rd level upgrade to rogue's finesse such that they only get Weapon Finesse for free. Then again, I might be bias because I house rule that all characters should get Weapon Finesse for free.
There are really no balance issues to worry about with an Unchained Ninja. Especially not in a game with books beyond Core.
-Matt
There are really no balance issues to worry about with an Unchained Ninja. Especially not in a game with books beyond Core.
-Matt
This was already shown not true. An unchained ninja is simply a better unchained rogue.
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So I compared the Ninja and Unchained Rogue side by side, looking to try and have a even number of class abilities per level... at least where applicable. Which, purposefully keeping out Rogue's Edge, seems to just be adding Finesse Training.
With consideration of trying to not have an 'Unchained' Ninja just be a better Unchained Rogue... how about a delayed version of Rogue's Edge that can only be used on a Ninja's class skills list? Perhaps have the first 'Ninja Edge' being gained at 7th level and then every 5 levels after that.
1st - Finesse training, poison use, sneak attack +1d6
2nd - Ki pool, ninja trick
3rd - No trace +1, finesse training, sneak attack +2d6
4th - Debilitating injury, ninja trick, uncanny dodge
5th - Sneak attack +3d6, finesse training
6th - Light steps, ninja trick, no trace +2
7th - Sneak attack +4d6, ninja's edge
8th - Improved uncanny dodge, ninja trick
9th - No trace +3, sneak attack +5d6
10th - Master tricks, ninja trick
11th - Finesse training, sneak attack +6d6
12th - Ninja trick, no trace +4, ninja's edge
13th - Sneak attack +7d6
14th - ninja trick
15th - No trace +5, sneak attack +8d6
16th - Ninja trick
17th - Sneak attack +9d6, ninja's edge
18th - ninja trick, no trace +6
19th - Finesse training, sneak attack +10d6
20th - Hidden master, ninja trick
One crazy idea is to lower the ninja's skill points per level.
I agree with Quorlox that finesse training and debilitating injury strike me as signature aspects of the class and make sense to give to the ninja. I do wish the unchained rogue received a better version of ki pool--they didnt get one at all despite ninja trick being there. An advanced talent that gives them master tricks would have been nice too.
I propose that an unchained ninja receives 6+Int skill points per level and gets light steps at 5th level (instead of 6th), replacing rogue's edge.
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I agree with Quorlox that finesse training and debilitating injury strike me as signature aspects of the class and make sense to give to the ninja.
I propose that an unchained ninja receives 6+Int skill points per level and gets light steps at 5th level (instead of 6th), replacing rogue's edge.
Interestingly, that last part was something I had actually considered for myself but didn't go through with the idea
Question for those here... how would such an 'Unchained' Ninja cosidered above compare if there was a DM planning on offering an Unchained Glory Rogue?|
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Class Skills
The ninja's class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (local) (Int), Knowledge (nobility) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Ranks per Level: 6 + Int modifier.
1st - Finesse training, poison use, sneak attack +1d6
2nd - Ki pool, ninja trick
3rd - No trace +1, finesse training, sneak attack +2d6
4th - Debilitating injury, ninja trick, uncanny dodge
5th - Light steps, sneak attack +3d6, finesse training
6th - Ninja trick, no trace +2
7th - Sneak attack +4d6, ninja's edge
8th - Improved uncanny dodge, ninja trick
9th - No trace +3, sneak attack +5d6
10th - Master tricks, ninja trick
11th - Finesse training, sneak attack +6d6
12th - Ninja trick, no trace +4, ninja's edge
13th - Sneak attack +7d6
14th - ninja trick
15th - No trace +5, sneak attack +8d6
16th - Ninja trick
17th - Sneak attack +9d6, ninja's edge
18th - ninja trick, no trace +6
19th - Finesse training, sneak attack +10d6
20th - Hidden master, ninja trick
I think this looks perfect. My group has been considering how to unchain the ninja; we have our own shinobi class that I made myself (it's more magicky and probably also more powerful; on par with an inquisitor or a bard, I'd wager, albeit spell-less and with a focus on stealth and such), but ever since the unchained rogue came out I've been hankering to play an unchained ninja. I agree that lowering the skill points and removing rogue's edge (including granting light steps earlier) seems thematic and balanced. If anyone in my group ever plays an unchained ninja, we'll definitely use this version. Good ideas, everyone. :)
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Personally, I would go with the Ninja created for the Final Fantasy d20. It is a setting that uses Pathfinder rules, and has actually incorporated many of the new PF Unlocked rules.
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Personally, I would go with the Ninja created for the Final Fantasy d20. It is a setting that uses Pathfinder rules, and has actually incorporated many of the new PF Unlocked rules.
Link?
Looks good to me, JonathonWilder
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@DragoDorn
Link to the ninja? I provided it in my last post. To the Final Fantasy d20? That could also be found in my post above though it goes to the ninja class. Yet if you would like a more direct link, here.
@Cyrad
Thanks, I'm glad what I did works for others.
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@DragoDorn
Link to the ninja? I provided it in my last post. To the Final Fantasy d20? That could also be found in my post above though it goes to the ninja class. Yet if you would like a more direct link, here.@Cyrad
Thanks, I'm glad what I did works for others.
The link wasn't working for me when I posted. It's working now. Weird. Thanks.
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The link wasn't working for me when I posted. It's working now. Weird. Thanks.
Well I am glad it is working now. I admit, if you wanted to throw the ninja into a normal Pathfinder campaign and not Final Fantasy d20... you would need to do a little converting, since spells and spellcasting works different.