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I am having a hard time finding adventures that do not consider the Cheliaxians as the opposition of the adventuring party. I want to run at least a few games that are pro Cheliax / House Thrune. I do not want to run APs because I have no belief that I could finish such a long story. I do not want to ruin an AP for other people, nor myself be starting and not finishing an AP.
I am open to level range but would prefer 3-6 level range to begin.
First thought is to maybe reuse old PFS games back fro.vthe faction mission days but those faction missions ate often such a small part of any individual scenario that I don't really count them as pro Cheliax / house Thrune.
Just out of curiosity, are any of the APs actually pro Cheliax current government of House Throne?
Thank all for any help.
It sounds to me like you are looking for single moduals then? I'm not sure where you could find any that quite fit those parameters, though I do have an idea for you. The first adventure I ran was sort of a franken-adventure. I took several independant moduals from Pathfinder and 3.5 and altered them to fit the overarching plot that I wanted. You could do the same. I would need more specific ideas in order to give you more specific advice though.
I don't think there is anything wrong with running a pro-Cheliax campaign. You just have to understand that Cheliax is an evil aligned nation for good reason and let your players know that playing a good aligned character would probably be a bad idea. As both a player and a sometimes GM, I heavily advise that you not allow chaotic evil characters, only because they can be Exceptionally difficult for a GM to deal with.
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(Reposting to the thread where others have replied)
Clearly this means a lot to you, as you've posted it thrice!
I don't believe any of the APs are pro-Cheliax, as that would involve endorsing an evil government, which is not really part of the AP build, as such.
I need a little clarification, though: are you looking for adventures where the PCs will actively support House Thrune, or just where they don't actively oppose the government?
you could pick volumes 5+6 of skull and shackles and reverse them.
Such things don't really exist. Cheliax, after the ascent of House Thrune, has been the literal ilk of devils. They're evil, out and out.
With minor exceptions, Paizo doesn't write many evil based AP or adventure modules.
I don't think an adventure like you want exist, nor should it. There might be a pro-Cheliax campaign someday, but it will also be thoroughly evil. It wont present them in a redeeming light because there is nothing redeeming about them.
You are basically asking adventures to represent the bad guys.
What you can do is buy an adventure and make modifications to the story-line. If you don't want to shoehorn the party into being evil, then have the opposition also be evil. That way someone who may not like the idea of supporting House Throne might be able to get behind it, if hurting House Throne will also cause Cheliax more harm than House Thrune would. Basically it is a "lesser of two evils" deal.
Such an example might be Cheliax sends an army to help fight at the Worldwound (Devils vs Demons). Most likely...the other nations wouldn't let the Chellish march their army through the lands to get to the Worldwound...but crazier things could happen.
And Demons and Devils do really hate one another, almost as much as Archons hate Demons.
{. . .}
And Demons and Devils do really hate one another, almost as much as Archons hate Demons.
I remember this being a thing in the default cosmology of D&D starting with Planescape in 2nd Edition and continuing beyond, but is it a major thing in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting? Or do Demons and Devils just view each other as dangerous but potentially useful allies (or preferably minions, and preferably disposable) in the war against Good?
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+1 on what others said above, that to get a pro-Thrune adventure, you would have to run an Evil adventure or at best a Lesser of Two Evils advanture.
Short of that, you could possibly come up with an adventure that is pro-Cheliax but anti-Thrune, and from what I have seen from following an awesome PbP, Council of Thieves comes close to this.
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You could possibly use the entire Darkmoon Vale arc (including the Last Baron adventures) with a bit of work. Take a look at the miserable conditions in the vale and have the PCs be Cheliaxian spies send to undermine the consortiums and Andorans hold on that area, helping people and guide them slowly toward the defection from Andoran and back into Cheliax 'loving' care.
Anything that focuses on the hellknights then? I mean, while they are somewhat seen as synonymous with Cheliaxian rule, or at least influence, they are not 100% evil themselves.
The hellknights are severe, but they honestly believe that it is necessary for maintaining order and the safety of the citizens. And that the devil summoning bits are just there as scare tactics. At least, that is what Joe-Smoe Skullcrusher believes.
Heck, hellknights even have their own paladins- the Oath Against Chaos is a set of mental gymnastics where savages and rebels are written off as bad as demons (they conveniently do not gain the able to detect evil, but only chaos- they can't tell if you are just a lovable rogue- they still have restriction against being evil...but it is set up that it is harder for them to realize....).
Order of the Godclaw is the best for looking at a sympathetic light, since it ostensibly venerates all the major lawful dieties- Abadar, Asmodeus, Iomedae, Irori, and Torag. I mean, they get the doctrines a bit twisted, and no one is sure whether they actually get divine granted power, or if it is by their own convictions.... Anyway, this is the order that would most likely be seen around the World Wound (ie- the 'greater of two evils').
If nothing else, you could write a perfectly nice and helpful paladin character (giving out lay on hands, maybe give the party free status removals from spells)....that is just a WEE BIT too zealous and...medieval with punishments of criminals.
Hellknights are technically a separate entity from the Thrune-Chellish government and not at all controlled by them. They just happen to reside within the same walls. They largely leave one another alone, mostly because the Hellknights abide the law, and the Chellish know that to control or destroy the Hellknights would be a very costly endeavor.
Arguably, the Hellknights are pro law, not pro evil (as House Thrune is). The Hellknights do however see the expediency and effectiveness of lawful evil and thus have a decent representation in their number.
In regards to Devils and Demons, it's not discussed much, but the little I've been able to find paints a picture that Demons and Devils have little tolerance for one another, and would prefer to destroy the other.
Hellknights are technically a separate entity from the Thrune-Chellish government and not at all controlled by them. They just happen to reside within the same walls. They largely leave one another alone, mostly because the Hellknights abide the law, and the Chellish know that to control or destroy the Hellknights would be a very costly endeavor.
Arguably, the Hellknights are pro law, not pro evil (as House Thrune is). The Hellknights do however see the expediency and effectiveness of lawful evil and thus have a decent representation in their number.
In regards to Devils and Demons, it's not discussed much, but the little I've been able to find paints a picture that Demons and Devils have little tolerance for one another, and would prefer to destroy the other.
Still, when I think of Andoran and Cheliax conflict, I tend to think of a brave Eagle Knight fighting a fierce Hell Knight.
I understand that House Thrune has little love for hellknights...which might be in your favor if you are trying to get the players to like Cheliaxians. The general consensus of this thread is that it is a hard sell to get your players to like House Thrune. Contrasting the knights against more corrupt politicians is one way to create a contrast in the player's minds that makes the hell knights more 'good guys'....comparatively.
You can thus have a duty bound knight, perhaps driven by a hatred of thieves and criminals while conflicted by the distasteful orders of his superiors.
Use the adventure finder tool to take a look at the Cheliax adventures.
I wouldn't shy away from running part of an adventure path for your group because you think it will ruin the rest. Each section comes with instructions for how to run as a standalone without the other parts of the adventure path. My current campaign combines multiple modules with one part from Shattered Star and the final part of Carrion Crown mixed in. If you're the GM and that's what you're running, then it's better than never running part of the adventure at all.
I agree with the general consensus that a pro-House Thrune adventure would be Evil-Only. If you want to be pro-Cheliax without the devil-worship overtones, definitely introduce some Lawful Good Hellknights. Peace through an iron (yet caring) fist.
And I dislike the implication here that Hellknights will only be the lesser of two evils or that any Good Hellknight is just being mislead by the shadowy higher-ups. The organization is solidly Lawful Neutral and there are just as many Good knights as there are Evil, even at the top of the food chain.
They specifically send their Paladins on missions where they're unlikely to come into a Law vs. Good conflict. They might quell a slave rebellion, but they'll also bring fiery justice down on a slave owner abusing his slaves. A Hellknight who publicly worships Asmodeus is as likely to be going through the motions for the sake of their family's safety as they are to actually worship him. If you need undeniable proof, Paladins of Good gods join the Hellknights and don't lose their powers. I think Iomedae or Torag would be pretty quick to dope slap their people if something was wrong with the entire group.
They're not the Galactic Empire, they just live there.
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They don't want the Demons to win, certainly, but having all the paladins up there is very convenient for Cheliax.
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Yeah, Cheliax would prefer Lastwall and all the paladins stay up there and keep fighting the demons until they can muster up enough strength to kill them all.
^Speaking of which, I have read in scattered places about Chelaxian/Hellknight missions to the Worldwound that were withdrawn without explanation. Fits right in -- "we're starting to have too much success -- better pull out so that we don't actually close the Worldwound". Actually would be a good plot twist to add when running Wrath of the Righteous, although I haven't heard of the AP as written having any hooks for this (I don't have the AP myself).
In regards to Devils and Demons, it's not discussed much, but the little I've been able to find paints a picture that Demons and Devils have little tolerance for one another, and would prefer to destroy the other.
I don't remember where I read this, but I saw an excerpt that indicated that devils and demons rarely cooperate; the main exception is when there is a daemonic threat, and that gets everyone working together because the daemons are the enemy of all alignment-based outsiders (hard to convert a soul into one of your fold when a daemon is eating it).
Indeed, everyone hates those soul devouring bastards.
So, where's our Daemonic AP?
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I agree with the general consensus that a pro-House Thrune adventure would be Evil-Only.
That's because the world of Golarion as written is defined way too much in black and white, and it carries over to everything.
Still, why could we not have an adventure set in Cheliax, where the PCs must navigate between two evils, manouvering one against the other ?
Example : an army of "chaotic monsters" is staging a guerilla war against the empire in a province. They burn villages. Hellknights intervene and sack villages of alleged "sympathisers". PCs must balance between the two factions, and solve the monster problem so that the army goes back to its barracks.
On a related note, it would be interesting to have a balkan-like scenario someday.
If we were going to get a truly morally ambiguous AP, I'd want it set in Galt.
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Well, this thread seems to have gotten slightly off topic. For the OP, there are two modules I could find that both take place in Cheliax and are not anti-Thrune regime.
Enjoy :)
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I agree with the general consensus that a pro-House Thrune adventure would be Evil-Only.That's because the world of Golarion as written is defined way too much in black and white, and it carries over to everything.
Still, why could we not have an adventure set in Cheliax, where the PCs must navigate between two evils, manouvering one against the other ?
Example : an army of "chaotic monsters" is staging a guerilla war against the empire in a province. They burn villages. Hellknights intervene and sack villages of alleged "sympathisers". PCs must balance between the two factions, and solve the monster problem so that the army goes back to its barracks.
On a related note, it would be interesting to have a balkan-like scenario someday.
Even without black and white morality, it is hard to justify house thrune, with all the slavery and human sacrifice to otherworldly powers.
Hellknights, at least, get the excuse that they are enforcing laws they do not necessarily agree with. Even when they do not have some larger authority holding the law over their heads, they have to think of the example they set. Remember, the current concept of a unified nation and nationalism as we know it is fairly modern- at least on a wide scale.
Historically, nations were often more of loose confederation of powerful noble houses, military powers, or merchant houses. Why do you think that kings needed the church to say that they were chosen by god- they needed something to legitimize their rule and stop all the various interests from carving their own chunks of land out of the country. And just think of one of the main causes for the American Civil War- the debate over whether the state or the federal government have the higher authority.
So what does this have to do with hellknights? The question boils down to- "who makes the law? Who is the legitimate authority?" If a hellknight order disregards the law, then that means they view their own authority and judgment as above that of the group that made the law. What kind of message does that send to a rival noble houses that have been looking for an excuse to overthrow the people in power? This could easily lead to civil war.
This is a problem hellknights must face, particularly since they are seen as unflinching symbols of law (which makes their actions carry even greater weight in the public mind). A divided state only spills its own blood, and it leaves itself open for other states and barbarians to spill its blood as well (at least, this is probably the perspective taught in HK101). So, even if they have no stake or opinion in the conflict, hellknights are constantly put into place to keep the balance of such power struggles.
And it certainly doesn't help that their are like....a hundred different CE gods with cults focused on general destruction and chaos. When there is an actual risk that a worshiper for the gods of the Dark Tapestry may open up a portal and invite one of them to destroy the world.... you get a bit 'inquisition-y'.
So overall...it is not hard to make a situation that a hellknight is caught between a rock and a hard place. But eh, this is all just me spouting from my own half remembered knowledge of things that are not necessarily part of the setting. So take it with a grain of salt.
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I agree with the general consensus that a pro-House Thrune adventure would be Evil-Only.That's because the world of Golarion as written is defined way too much in black and white, and it carries over to everything.
Still, why could we not have an adventure set in Cheliax, where the PCs must navigate between two evils, manouvering one against the other ?
Example : an army of "chaotic monsters" is staging a guerilla war against the empire in a province. They burn villages. Hellknights intervene and sack villages of alleged "sympathisers". PCs must balance between the two factions, and solve the monster problem so that the army goes back to its barracks.
On a related note, it would be interesting to have a balkan-like scenario someday.
Even without black and white morality, it is hard to justify house thrune, with all the slavery and human sacrifice to otherworldly powers.
Hellknights, at least, get the excuse that they are enforcing laws they do not necessarily agree with. Even when they do not have some larger authority holding the law over their heads, they have to think of the example they set. Remember, the current concept of a unified nation and nationalism as we know it is fairly modern- at least on a wide scale.
Historically, nations were often more of loose confederation of powerful noble houses, military powers, or merchant houses. Why do you think that kings needed the church to say that they were chosen by god- they needed something to legitimize their rule and stop all the various interests from carving their own chunks of land out of the country. And just think of one of the main causes for the American Civil War- the debate over whether the state or the federal government have the higher authority.
So what does this have to do with hellknights? The question boils down to- "who makes the law? Who is the legitimate authority?" If a hellknight order disregards the law, then that means they view their own...
"Citizens of Kintargo... Cthulu is not the law. I am the law."
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Sometimes, an actor loves to play the villain.
Look at the success of franchises like grand theft auto. Plenty of people enjoy gaming a villain also.
Some people are tired, or outright fed up with always being typecast into "heroes."
Some people would love the challenge of upholding the law, and trying to keep the oppressed down so they cannot challenge your position of power. I think it can be a fun adventure itself. A change of scenery if nothing else.
Thanks for the module recommendations. Also the perspective it might sometimes be better to run part of an AP then nothing at all, at least if everyone knows that from the begining to avoid false expectations.
I thought the pirate campaign was am evil, or at least non good friendly campaign. I thought second darkness and age of worms gave you a choice to play good or evil. Was I wrong about those?
You could also have a campaign in which the characters are not Evil themselves, but they have the bad fortune to be born or otherwise bound to House Thrune, and being stuck in this dystopia, they have to try to redeem as much as they can from the inside. (Technically, they would also have the option of just running away, but this should be really hard -- not only would the rest of House Thrune and its allies try really hard to hunt you down, while the rebels might not trust you, but relatives that you actually don't wish any harm to would be held hostage against you.)
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I disagree. The majority of the responses have clearly stated the point of view of "evil for evil's sake" in regards to Cheliax and assume the PC's are themselves evil (to whatever degree). On the other hand...there is no reason why the PC's don't simply live there. Think about places with very oppressive governments in our own world. Just because someone lives in Nazzi germany during WWII does not mean they support the extremes of government oppression and racism that were so rampant. In fact here in the U.S. I have frequently heard the sentiment of, "I love my country, but fear my government." There have been some similar statements made in the Star Wars novels by citizens of the Empire who have (quietly) stated "I love the Empire but hate the Sith". Obviously some would state this is a contradiction. Yet how is this any different than someone who lives in Cheliax? Perhaps their family line goes back to the time before Emperial Cheliax fell and became Infernal Cheliax.
Pro-Cheliax could just as easily translate to Pro-Cheliax: People, Pro-Cheliax: Culture, Pro-Cheliax: History and does not HAVE to default to Pro-Cheliax: Evil Satanic Empire.
Just saying.
Lazlo
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I invoke Godwin's law
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I disagree. The majority of the responses have clearly stated the point of view of "evil for evil's sake" in regards to Cheliax and assume the PC's are themselves evil (to whatever degree). On the other hand...there is no reason why the PC's don't simply live there. Think about places with very oppressive governments in our own world. Just because someone lives in Nazzi germany during WWII does not mean they support the extremes of government oppression and racism that were so rampant. In fact here in the U.S. I have frequently heard the sentiment of, "I love my country, but fear my government." There have been some similar statements made in the Star Wars novels by citizens of the Empire who have (quietly) stated "I love the Empire but hate the Sith". Obviously some would state this is a contradiction. Yet how is this any different than someone who lives in Cheliax? Perhaps their family line goes back to the time before Emperial Cheliax fell and became Infernal Cheliax.
Pro-Cheliax could just as easily translate to Pro-Cheliax: People, Pro-Cheliax: Culture, Pro-Cheliax: History and does not HAVE to default to Pro-Cheliax: Evil Satanic Empire.
Just saying.
Lazlo
"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it."
~Mark TwainStill, LazarX raises the point counter to your suggestion quite well. Such a campaign could do with having some very damaged, Stockholm-Syndrome-Esque characters at the forefront, convinced like the girlfriend of the abusive boyfriend that "He'll get better." or "I just need to do more for him!", only applying it to their government.
I'm surprised no one has brought up Way of the Wicked yet. Granted, it takes place in it's own campaign setting, but you play as followers of Asmodeus and the module outright says that the island that it takes place can be in any campaign setting.
Still, LazarX raises the point counter to your suggestion quite well. Such a campaign could do with having some very damaged, Stockholm-Syndrome-Esque characters at the forefront, convinced like the girlfriend of the abusive boyfriend that "He'll get better." or "I just need to do more for him!", only applying it to their government.
"Oh, I know the queen is letting bad things happen to those poor slips, but it is just until the country gets back on its feet. Once we are a mighty empire again, I am sure that things will get better and the country will change its ways. You'll see."
"Oh little slip, the country whips you because it cares. You should jsut stop this silly disobedience. You are just bringing it on yourself."
I'm surprised no one has brought up Way of the Wicked yet. Granted, it takes place in it's own campaign setting, but you play as followers of Asmodeus and the module outright says that the island that it takes place can be in any campaign setting.
The OP does not want to do an entire AP. He prefers the 3 to 6 level range.
I'm surprised no one has brought up Way of the Wicked yet. Granted, it takes place in it's own campaign setting, but you play as followers of Asmodeus and the module outright says that the island that it takes place can be in any campaign setting.The OP does not want to do an entire AP. He prefers the 3 to 6 level range.
Good, so then just the raid on Balentyne. You could even make it into an Andoran castle instead of a Talirean one.