Venture-Captain, Washington—Spokane
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I'd consider relocating (or replicating) the fame, day job, prestige rewards, spell casting, etc charts to a single sheet in the back that could be printed off and kept handy for game days.
Include all the traits needed for Core play as an addendum to the guide, so literally all anyone needs to play Core is the CRB and Guide.
Include a map of the Inner Sea with regions and capitals in the Guide for reference.
Walter,
On the GM prep site, I did submit a quick reference sheet that includes Faction Conversions, APL Calculations, Fame Table. and Day Job Table. I will work with it to see if I can include more charts.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Things that would make me happy;
- Clarify pregens. Right now there's rules for the use of pregens in the Module/AP section, and in the "regular scenario" section, and they're different. This causes confusion because people try to use the Module rules for Scenario situations to justify one approach or the opposite.
- Subtier determination is a pretty straightforward process if you parse the text carefully, but that text is a bit dense. A flowchart might make it clearer to many people. Because it turns out a lot of people are surprised about the correct subtier for a given session.
- Adding Golarion languages for the CORE campaign. To go the extra mile, also include race, religion and regional traits, but those aren't nearly as necessary.
- Include the Technologist feat. I know it's only for a handful of scenarios, but for those scenarios, it makes a lot of difference, both for GMs and players.
- Make it explicit if a GM crediting a scenario to a between-tier character can/cannot get the high-tier items listen. I'm assuming No, but this is currently just not ruled upon.
- Do pregens have to be Grand Lodge, even if the scenario credit is going to an existing non-GL character? As I understand, the pregen-GL affiliation is useful to get a game with new players on the road fast. Do experienced players really need to do that? Does it mean they can earn GL boons by playing a pregen? I'd like this changed to a "by default" instead of "always". Perhaps you could declare faction allegiance before the session, but on the condition that if the pregen dies, you have to credit the death to your PC?
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The patron deity thing isn't going away because it's also a balance issue; take it away and you just have the entire domain buffet laid out in front of you. :P
Maybe, but it's a pretty terrible implementation of it. Since the Core book, a few deities have always had the best Domain options. So it's not really stopping anything except for player creativity, and playing into a few vocal minority's sense of the one true way of fun.
There was a conclusion found. The guy that wrote it said "this is what these words mean." There were just other people that for some reason didn't want to believe him.
If it's the thread I'm thinking of, it was more like, "this is what I meant it to mean when I wrote it", but it was pointed out a few times that it actually said the exact opposite. So, if it's the one I'm thinking of, it's an excellent example of some of the worst issues with the guide. The intent is hidden, but different people look at it and take away very different things, and as has been pointed out here, even the explanation with the supposed intent just made issues worse. The guide could really use a lot of work, focusing more on rules and clarity and less on unknown intent or assumptions, in m opinion. Obviously just my opinion, and different people are going to disagree.
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Outside of that, the two biggest things I'd want from a new PFS guide is to have a Printer Friendly version, and it would be very helpful to also include right up front a single page or two of nothing but the common charts all together. Day Job checks, the PP expenditure charts, Favor gp limit, etc. . .
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@Joe M: The guide's language is clear. Any way that a player could apply pregen credit to his PC for a scenario, module or AP segment is also available as a way for the GM to apply credit to his PC. Not sure there is any way to make this clearer, without making it a copy-and-paste of the player credit rules.
@DM Beckett: Not sure what you are reading, but what Andrew says it was meant to say is, indeed, what it says. If the class information says that they don't have to have a deity to get their divine powers, then the Guide rules state that they don't need to have a deity chosen.
Note that, for some peoples' reading comprehension issues, there is not much that can be done without making the already intimidating Guide even more intimidating.
For the Core campaign materials, how about making it a separate document, rather than incorporating it into the Guide. Appendix C: Core Campaign Reference Materials
Appendix C1: Core Campaign Languages
Appendix C2: Core Campaign & the Spellcaster
Appendix C3: Core Campaign and the Boon Chronicle
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My idea:
I think we should add the web enhancement's traits to the guide, so that all available traits for Core mode are in one place (and maybe toss in some of the non-campaign traits from the APG that didn't make it in too).
It's a PDF. These additional pages shouldn't need much, if any, editing. Yes please add them.
Please include a list of available languages for Core players.
Including "The Story Thus Far" idea mentioned in the "Improvements Are A-Comin" blog post to give a (spoiler light) plot synopsis of previous seasons for new players. Either in the guide or mentioned and linked to the PFS section of the website.
I like this idea, but I think it will take too much work.
After the entire document has been formatted, have someone recheck the table of contents and the index. I see some items are not referenced correctly.
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So, something that has sort of bothered me off and on, especially with the popularity of online play (especially PbP), is this rule:
Since sanctioned modules and Adventure Paths are multisession events, Pathfinder Society characters may not be used in other Pathfinder Society events until they receive a Chronicle sheet for the sanctioned content. GMs are advised to work with players who miss the final session of the module or Adventure Path
First of all, this is in the section for modules, so some people might think it only applies to module or AP play. I believe that it applies to all multi-session play, and that PbP counts as that. I would move this out of the Modules section and into the Pathfinder Society Special Rules section.
I would be explicit in that working. My proposal is something like this:
A multi-session event is one that is split between two different time blocks, such as different days, different slots in a convention, or between posts, such as in a play-by-post. These events are often sanctioned modules or Adventure Paths, but may include Pathfinder Society scenarios or Free RPG Day modules. Pathfinder Society characters may not be used in other Pathfinder Society events until they receive a Chronicle sheet for the sanctioned content. GMs are advised to work with players who miss the final session of the event. Furthermore, pregen or GM credit chronicles may not be assigned to nor held for a character that is involved in a multi-session event.
I am sure that my language here would need some cleaning up, but I think you all can get the idea. I do hope that those of you around here can figure out, and close, any loopholes that I left open.
Now, if I am wrong, and it is ok to assign pregen or GM credit chronicles to a character "locked" in a multi-session adventure, then I shall stand corrected, and drop this proposal.
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@DM Beckett: Not sure what you are reading, but what Andrew says it was meant to say is, indeed, what it says. If the class information says that they don't have to have a deity to get their divine powers, then the Guide rules state that they don't need to have a deity chosen.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure DM Beckett was the only one insisting that it wasn't clear.
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Now, if I am wrong, and it is ok to assign pregen or GM credit chronicles to a character "locked" in a multi-session adventure, then I shall stand corrected, and drop this proposal.
Whatever the rules are around applying credit to PBP-locked PCs, I think a clarification would be helpful, as requested here.
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Second suggestion: In the Determining Subtier section, clarify whether the line "In the fringe case where there are no players that are high enough to have reached the subtier level (such as a party of six 3rd level characters), the group may decide to play down to the lower subtier." applies to all seasons or only seasons 0-3.
Since that line appears after the section on season 0-3 scenarios, many GMs interpret it as not applying to seasons 4-6, while others believe that it applies to all seasons. Put another way, if a 6 player table APL 2.6 in a season 4-6 scenario does not have a 4th or 5th level character in the group, must they still play the 4-5 tier with the 4 player adjustment, or do they have the choice to play 1-2 with no adjustment?
LINK to a relevant discussion.
I understand that this might be a little off-topic, but it seems that there might need to be some clarification.
Put it another way: If there are people out there who believe that an APL of 2.6 should be rounded up to 3, then further rounded up to 4 in order to determine subtier, a clarification is really warranted. As I see it, in this situation, the subtier should either be rounded up to 4, or down to 2. The only time that these clauses should be important is if the APL is exactly between tiers; that is 3.0, without rounding.
Mekkis, I'll address your point over in the linked thread, so as not to stay off topic in this one.
EDIT: LINK to response.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Second suggestion: In the Determining Subtier section, clarify whether the line "In the fringe case where there are no players that are high enough to have reached the subtier level (such as a party of six 3rd level characters), the group may decide to play down to the lower subtier." applies to all seasons or only seasons 0-3.
Since that line appears after the section on season 0-3 scenarios, many GMs interpret it as not applying to seasons 4-6, while others believe that it applies to all seasons. Put another way, if a 6 player table APL 2.6 in a season 4-6 scenario does not have a 4th or 5th level character in the group, must they still play the 4-5 tier with the 4 player adjustment, or do they have the choice to play 1-2 with no adjustment?
LINK to a relevant discussion.
I understand that this might be a little off-topic, but it seems that there might need to be some clarification.
Put it another way: If there are people out there who believe that an APL of 2.6 should be rounded up to 3, then further rounded up to 4 in order to determine subtier, a clarification is really warranted. As I see it, in this situation, the subtier should either be rounded up to 4, or down to 2. The only time that these clauses should be important is if the APL is exactly between tiers; that is 3.0, without rounding.
I disagree with the way you interpret the text. But I agree with you that it causes confusion.
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I hope the early posts in this thread didn't chase Mike away completely, as I think some good things have been pointed out since and it deserves a bump.
Also, another thread reminded me of one more area I'd suggest clarifying. The section on Player vs Player Combat is often interpreted differently, and that can lead to hurt feelings and in some cases dead PCs. Most of the confusion seems to be around the line that reads, "In short, you can never voluntarily use your character to kill another character—ever." That has lead to several different rulings by GMs, including:
1) A PC may not voluntarily kill another PC, but everything else is allowed (dropping them in a pit, including them in Area of Effect damage or spells, etc.)
or
2) A PC may not damage another PC without permission from the player of that PC. (So, including them in an Area of Effect is ok, as long as you get permission first).
or
3) A PC may not damage another PC under any circumstances, even with permission.
I posted this in a thread on the topic a while back, and I think something along these lines would be a good update to the guide:
From the Guide to Pathfinder Society Adventure Card Guild Organized Play:
Cooperative Play
First and foremost, the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game is a cooperative experience. Please let this idea guide your behavior during play. Don’t make decisions on behalf of other players, and don’t take actions that may harm another player’s character without that player’s consent. If there is a dispute over the rules, try to come to an agreement as quickly as possible; if that proves impossible, choose the path that benefits the most players. Be courteous and encourage a mutual interest in playing, not engaging in endless rules discussions. While you are enjoying the game, be considerate of the others at the table, and don’t let your actions keep them from having a good time too. In short, don’t be a jerk.
Right up front, before it even gets to the Core Assumption.
My suggestion is to add similar language to the Roleplaying Guild guide. It would clear up a lot of confusion and stop a lot of the debates/arguments.
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If it's a 6 player table the APL of the table is raised by 1. So your 2.6 table is in actuality a 3.6 APL table, which means tier 4.Second suggestion: In the Determining Subtier section, clarify whether the line "In the fringe case where there are no players that are high enough to have reached the subtier level (such as a party of six 3rd level characters), the group may decide to play down to the lower subtier." applies to all seasons or only seasons 0-3.
Since that line appears after the section on season 0-3 scenarios, many GMs interpret it as not applying to seasons 4-6, while others believe that it applies to all seasons. Put another way, if a 6 player table APL 2.6 in a season 4-6 scenario does not have a 4th or 5th level character in the group, must they still play the 4-5 tier with the 4 player adjustment, or do they have the choice to play 1-2 with no adjustment?
LINK to a relevant discussion.
I understand that this might be a little off-topic, but it seems that there might need to be some clarification.
Put it another way: If there are people out there who believe that an APL of 2.6 should be rounded up to 3, then further rounded up to 4 in order to determine subtier, a clarification is really warranted. As I see it, in this situation, the subtier should either be rounded up to 4, or down to 2. The only time that these clauses should be important is if the APL is exactly between tiers; that is 3.0, without rounding.
That is no longer the case. The size of the table does not affect the actual APL of the table anymore and hasn't since Season 5's guide. It just determines when a table between tiers plays up or down.
Things like this are why I think the section needs further clarification (examples of borderline cases would be a good addition. More examples in general, actually, when there's a rule change would be a good thing).
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Clarify this wording:
In cases in which you simply cannot seat four players, you may run a table of three players, and play an official level-appropriate pregenerated character in order to meet the minimum table size of four PCs.
That "you" refers to the GM since that's the chapter this section is in, and apparently some tables take that as gospel. Tiny change to fix.
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Clarify this wording:
In short, you can never voluntarily use your character to kill another character—ever.
That "ever" part is very absolute, and this is confusing people.
It should specify an exception where permission can be asked or given, such as when the character will be hit by their collateral damage. Nothing in the surrounding text suggests that you can do this.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Clarify this wording:
In short, you can never voluntarily use your character to kill another character—ever.That "ever" part is very absolute, and this is confusing people.
It should specify an exception where permission can be asked or given, such as when the character will be hit by their collateral damage. Nothing in the surrounding text suggests that you can do this.
Also, Can implys ability. May implies permission, shall implies compulsion. This probably should be may never or shall never... (Can never feels weird to me from a technical writing standpoint.)
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One more table variation issue that came up because of the language in the guide to organized play is whether or not a level 5 character may play in the 1-2 subtier of a tier 1-7 scenario. The guide does not call out 1-7 scenarios specifically. It references only being able to play in subtiers that are one step away from your level. Some interpret that as only subtiers 3-4 and 6-7. Some interpret it as level 5 not being in a subtier, and since it is legal for a level 5 to play in the 1-2 subtier of a 1-5 it is legal in a 1-7 as well. And example in the guide on how to handle the situation would clear everything up.
For reference, here is the current thread:
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Clarify this wording:
In cases in which you simply cannot seat four players, you may run a table of three players, and play an official level-appropriate pregenerated character in order to meet the minimum table size of four PCs.That "you" refers to the GM since that's the chapter this section is in, and apparently some tables take that as gospel. Tiny change to fix.
It is there so that the GM can step in and run the PC if the other players are using them as a disposable minesweeper. Every NPC is run by the GM, and a pre-gen is no different. If a GM wishes, they can assign that job to someone else, but it's not a given that the PCs should be given the reins automatically.
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Clarify this wording:
No Player vs Player Combat, p19
I agree that this section needs rewording, to remove the massive table variation that is occurring. Players should know what the expectation is before they sit down - can the CN alchemist just throw bombs willy-nilly or not?
I would like to see this section become more clear (not necessarily more specific), and address the following areas at least:
* what "PvP" actually means - is it no combat, no damaging, no killing, or something else?
* the baseline expectation - PvP is not allowed except when all parties agree
* the difference between the "no PvP" rule and the "Don't be a jerk" rule.
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This just caught my eye
In order to determine which subtier a mixed-level group of PCs must play in, calculate the group’s average party level (APL). Divide the total number of character levels by the number of characters in the party. You should always round to the nearest whole number. If you are exactly at 0.5, let the group decide which subtier they wish to play.
I don't think anyone will misunderstand the current text, but in my opinion replacing the bolded part with "to round up or down" would be better.