Richard Moore, while you have some good points, there's one elephant in the room so to speak with regards to Greyhawk vs. Forgotten Realms. NPCs.
Specifically the proliferation of high level NPCs in Forgotten Realms compared to Greyhawk. Correct me if I'm wrong but in Greyhawk the only real high level NPCs are the Circle of Eight, Robilar, Rary, and Mordenkainen. That's 11 as compared to something like a dozen or so Chosen of Mystra (one of which is Elminster, the poster boy for NPC who really should be handling the important stuff instead of foisting it on the PCs), The Symbul, the Companions of the Hall (Drizzt Do'urden and his friends, Regis, Cattie Brie, Wulfgar, and Bruenor Battlehammer), and on, and on, and on, and MY GOD do I hate the trivialization of PCs in the Realms.
But yeah, as far as general themes go Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms are both pretty similar, just that in Greyhawk the PCs actually matter.
Realms of Chirak has a post on the number of 3PP, even without an OGL. More than I realized, to be honest. Still not enough to come anywhere close to PF, but that's the difference in system ages, imo.
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I think it's actually a really good idea that WotC has chosen a campaign setting and is sticking with it exclusively. Haven't publishers found that making multiple campaign settings splits their fan base?
Isn't that why Pathfinder created Golarion and stayed away from creating any other settings? With the exception of the Dragon Empires Gazeteer and upcoming Distant Shores, they haven't even really touched on anything outside of the Inner Sea.
I can't see us blaming WotC for doing the same thing. It may not satisfy all the fans, but it sounds like, from everything I've read, it's smart business.
There's some legitimacy to the argument that doing anything but FR will split the base, but if that's the line company is towing, their decision to prominently feature substantial nods to other campaign settings in the core books is a bizarre one indeed. And if there's no intention of ever doing non-Realms supplements, then why even bothering asking the poll question, or indeed publicizing the results?
I also don't get the impression that the content in any of the published adventures to date is as separable from FR as, say, a Paizo adventure path is from Golarion (most of which are pretty easily reskinned), but I admit that's not a first-hand impression, as I've yet to plunk down any money for an official adventure release (I'm considering buying Out Of The Abyss just because I've heard good things about it from other players).
I'll also admit to a healthy dose of wishful thinking in all of this, because I am just plain burned out on the friggin' Forgotten Realms, especially after the series of world-reaving events that have been incorporated into its timeline to move it from edition to edition and the general stagnation of the content.
I think Planescape would be a good launching point. Different campaign settings can be attached to it.
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Well and it's fair to say that Golarion is a varied setting. I think that if they did, for instance, go with a Toril setting that was enough of a departure (Kara-Tur, Al-Quadim, etc) that it would feel less redundant as we kept focusing on the Sword Coast. I mean, heck, even something about Waterdeep might be nice as a departure.
Without trying to speak for an entire generation of gamers, my personal aversion to Greyhawk is that it's just been done to death over four different editions of the game to date, and I don't think many people who started gaming after 1990 have any emotional connection to the setting--the people who fondly remember AD&D 1E and a Gygax-led TSR LOVE it, but beyond those people I don't really hear a clamoring for that sort of material any more. Nowhere is this more evident than in the latter days of Dungeon Magazine--one of the biggest walls I'm hitting while running a Savage Tide game right now is that I have to de-Greyhawkify everything in it because all of that mythology is baked in (despite the Isle of Dread really being more of a Mystara artifact).
It's also too close to Forgotten Realms in terms of what it offers GMs for campaign fodder. Publishing a Greyhawk sourcebook wouldn't really be presenting an alternative to the FR default, and as much as it pains me to say it, neither would a Krynn/Dragonlance sourcebook. That's why I think Eberron or Planescape are much more likely to be revisited if Wizards ever decides to branch out from the Realms.
I agree, and I know that WotC must be playing a balancing act. They may want to move on to another setting, but not something so different or unpopular that it will scare their corporate masters into sticking with the Faerun as a safer investment.
That's why I put my faith into 3PP right now... they are far more connected to the audience. I just hope that the Dragon Kings setting gets some 5e support, I really want to try some of this Dark Sun flavored material at some point.
I've been playing 5e for a little over half a year now. In terms of the actual feel of the game, it feels similar, just with less 'stuff'. The rate of growth is somewhat infuriating but what hits the most is I still don't have that many options on what to do unless I'm a caster or do something off the wall that I'm not sure is going to work because the rules are vague enough where a particular stunt working would be up to the DM. Its just kind of barren, and not really for the lack of content but the basic chassis just keeps you from doing too much at once. We're encroaching lvl 8 but I feel like I've been playing the Pathfinder Beginner Box since the beginning of the game.
Don't get me wrong, I love the beginner box whenever I want to break out a game of PF-lite, and thus I really like 5th edition, but the whole 'diet' flavor, despite being technically better for you, makes sure I won't be selling off my Pathfinder collection.
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The excessive proliferation of Forgotten Realms really makes me want to vomit. It's bad enough that Paizo stays with Golarion, but at least that place is more varied compared to Faerun. Though they need to branch out and away from the Inner Sea, as it is as boring and overdone as the Sword Coast region of Faerun. Speaking of which, it makes me so irritated and sad that the only book we have gotten in 1.5 years that wasn't an adventure (set in the Sword Coast region) or Core book, is a friggin Forgotten Realms book about the damned blasted Sword Coast. And everything I have heard says that it will be rather difficult filing off the Forgotten Realms from the things within.
I never really got the whole "This book is from this setting so I am not going to purchase it because that setting is yucky". Yes, I absolutely loathe the Forgotten Realms, but I still bought numerous books in that setting line. Same with Ravenloft, Dragonlance, Planescape, etc. Maybe it's because I use a homebrew setting, and I typically nick things from other settings that I think would be a good addition to my own. I just wish they would branch out from the friggin Realms. Set all the adventures there for all I care, but release options books with things from other settings.
Yeah, but most of those mages died in the transition to 4E. Even with that though, 3/4 of 200 is still enough to trivialize PCs. That, and 4E Realms either took away some of the more interesting locations like Lantan and Maztica or ignored them almost completely (Regional background for Rashemen? Who cares about those guys? It's not like there's a popular character from that region, nope, none at all).
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Yeah, but most of those mages died in the transition to 4E. Even with that though, 3/4 of 200 is still enough to trivialize PCs. That, and 4E Realms either took away some of the more interesting locations like Lantan and Maztica or ignored them almost completely (Regional background for Rashemen? Who cares about those guys? It's not like there's a popular character from that region, nope, none at all).
Controversial opinion here, but the Realms have always been bad.
4e just accentuated this: when you get rid of all the stuff that people associate most strongly with the Realms (overly large pantheon, huge cast of high level NPCs who trivialize PCs) (which are also bad) the only thing left was a pretty bad and generic fantasy setting. In trying to make the setting more playable and approachable, they only made it plain to see how bad it was.
I'm glad that we've rolled back to the bad old pre-4e days with 5e, because now we I can adventure in the bad setting that I remember reading about as a dumb kid.
Also, Eberrowns.
Richard Moore, while you have some good points, there's one elephant in the room so to speak with regards to Greyhawk vs. Forgotten Realms. NPCs.
Specifically the proliferation of high level NPCs in Forgotten Realms compared to Greyhawk. Correct me if I'm wrong but in Greyhawk the only real high level NPCs are the Circle of Eight, Robilar, Rary, and Mordenkainen. That's 11 as compared to something like a dozen or so Chosen of Mystra (one of which is Elminster, the poster boy for NPC who really should be handling the important stuff instead of foisting it on the PCs), The Symbul, the Companions of the Hall (Drizzt Do'urden and his friends, Regis, Cattie Brie, Wulfgar, and Bruenor Battlehammer), and on, and on, and on, and MY GOD do I hate the trivialization of PCs in the Realms.
But yeah, as far as general themes go Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms are both pretty similar, just that in Greyhawk the PCs actually matter.
Be it FR, GH, or some other setting, there's only whatever NPCs the DM wants to include.
Just because I have the stats for something doesn't mean I MUST use them.Just because some author wrote a novel I've never read doesn't mean it becomes cannon.
Let me tell you how the legend of Drizzt really goes when I'm DM:
Once upon a time there WAS a non-evil drow. He escaped into the surface world, living in isolation. Eventually he DID come into contact with other surface dwellers.
Their response was: "Agh! A DROW!"
And they (or maybe the adventures they hired to kill him)mowed him down in a hail of arrows etc & looted his body.
As the monster lay there dying somebody swears that its last words - before being run through - were "But I'm a GOOD Drow..."
They all had a nice long laugh at that and told & retold the tale for years to come.
Eventually some bard hears the story and spins all kinds of fantastic tall tales about the adventures of a GOOD drow living way up north somewhere.
Hmmm... why do my Realms have a similar spin?
And those 200 wizards are not there to marginalize PCs they are quite occupied with their own plot as ensure that opposition of high level PCs doesn't come out of thin air.
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Be it FR, GH, or some other setting, there's only whatever NPCs the DM wants to include.Richard Moore, while you have some good points, there's one elephant in the room so to speak with regards to Greyhawk vs. Forgotten Realms. NPCs.
Specifically the proliferation of high level NPCs in Forgotten Realms compared to Greyhawk. Correct me if I'm wrong but in Greyhawk the only real high level NPCs are the Circle of Eight, Robilar, Rary, and Mordenkainen. That's 11 as compared to something like a dozen or so Chosen of Mystra (one of which is Elminster, the poster boy for NPC who really should be handling the important stuff instead of foisting it on the PCs), The Symbul, the Companions of the Hall (Drizzt Do'urden and his friends, Regis, Cattie Brie, Wulfgar, and Bruenor Battlehammer), and on, and on, and on, and MY GOD do I hate the trivialization of PCs in the Realms.
But yeah, as far as general themes go Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms are both pretty similar, just that in Greyhawk the PCs actually matter.
This reads to me like a Rule 0 argument ("The rules aren't bad because I can house rule them") but with settings. I mean, if I buy a setting book, I'd consider having 200 NPCs I need to ignore so as not to deprotagonize my PCs a flaw.
I do get, however, that this is a problem inherent to pretty much any setting that also happens to be the backdrop to bestselling fantasy fiction. People pay for the Forgotten Realms campaign setting because they want to adventure in the same world as their favorite character Drizzt (and I know he draws a lot of ire among the actual D&D-playing crowd, but he's actually a really popular character), and because of that they can't ignore any of those storied NPCs in the game material because the dedicated fans of the setting would cry foul.
I guess the problem from where I'm standing is that Forgotten Realms the D&D setting and Forgotten Realms the novel setting exist in a really unhealthy symbiotic relationship: the setting of the novels has to occasionally drastically change to keep up with changes to the game it's based on (and say what you will about the changes 4e made to the setting, Mystra coming back and pushing rewind on the setting so 4e never happened is also really dumb) while the game setting has to keep up with changes that happen within the narrative of the novels.
The problem, of course, is that the novels are the real money-makers, so they have to keep the setting up to date with the narrative of the novels, but at the same time it makes for a really bad setting to play in. But at the same time it's not a problem that Wizards of the Coast want to fix, because people are paying to play in the setting of the FR novels and the novels are what really bring in the big numbers.
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This is why Eberron is superior. It was a specific mandate that anything from the novels remains non-cannon to the campaign setting. Instead of being things that definitely happened (and I think there's a few novels that contradict each other because of this) they're only things that might have happened.
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This is why Eberron is superior. It was a specific mandate that anything from the novels remains non-cannon to the campaign setting. Instead of being things that definitely happened (and I think there's a few novels that contradict each other because of this) they're only things that might have happened.
Agreed. As I might have articulated earlier, Eberrowns.
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I actually love the Realms. I don't mind that there are high level NPCs. The setting embraces the fact that D&D is a game ranging from level 1 to 20 (or more since FR acknowledges epic levels).
I like that some NPCs can remain mentors, or nemesis (sometimes both!), even for high level characters. PCs are only as trivialized as much as the DM let them.Perhaps the Realms are more easily abused by ego-maniacal DMs however; I could see that happening.
[edit] 5e and its bounded accuracy helps in that regards; a single 20th level characters can no longer single-handedly wipe all the monsters of an area, and hiring low-level PCs and raising armies seem to have a purpose again.[/edit]
The game can be played on so many levels (no pun intended), there is more than enough room for heroes to coexists without stepping on each other toes.
What I don't care about is the canonization of novels and that is usually discarded in my games, or at the most, vaguely echoed. Regardless of the setting, be it Forgotten Realms, Star Wars or Middle Earth, it's hard to have players follow the footsteps of Luke Skywalker or Frodo Baggins without feeling like playing second violin. A good DM finds its action further away from the main flag characters.
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What I don't care about is the canonization of novels and that is usually discarded in my games, or at the most, vaguely echoed. Regardless of the setting, be it Forgotten Realms, Star Wars or Middle Earth, it's hard to have players follow the footsteps of Luke Skywalker or Frodo Baggins without feeling like playing second violin. A good DM finds its action further away from the main flag characters.
This is actually a really good point, one which I wanted to raise previously, but I couldn't quite articulate it. The problems of the Realms are the same as those in any multimedia franchise, as far as RPGs go.
Personally, I think it's more of an argument for dedicated tabletop RPG settings and not playing RPGs in large multimedia settings with a big established canon: like, the GM having to find action further from the flagship characters sort of undermines the PCs' ability to impact the setting. I mean, I play RPGs because I want my character to be the Luke Skywalker or Frodo of the setting, not to adventure in the corners of the setting while all the really important stuff is going on elsewhere.
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This can be a problem in dedicated RPG settings as well - ones where there's a big metaplot being revealed in supplements and modules pretty much regardless of what players in individual campaigns do.What I don't care about is the canonization of novels and that is usually discarded in my games, or at the most, vaguely echoed. Regardless of the setting, be it Forgotten Realms, Star Wars or Middle Earth, it's hard to have players follow the footsteps of Luke Skywalker or Frodo Baggins without feeling like playing second violin. A good DM finds its action further away from the main flag characters.This is actually a really good point, one which I wanted to raise previously, but I couldn't quite articulate it. The problems of the Realms are the same as those in any multimedia franchise, as far as RPGs go.
Personally, I think it's more of an argument for dedicated tabletop RPG settings and not playing RPGs in large multimedia settings with a big established canon: like, the GM having to find action further from the flagship characters sort of undermines the PCs' ability to impact the setting. I mean, I play RPGs because I want my character to be the Luke Skywalker or Frodo of the setting, not to adventure in the corners of the setting while all the really important stuff is going on elsewhere.
Man, the nineties were WILD
I miss Planescape.
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I miss Planescape.
Me too. I also I miss DiTerlizzi...
His art pretty much defined Planescape.
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You know that's right!
I would love to see a story written by Neil Gaiman illustrated by Tony DiTerlizzi.
I feel like I am one of the very rare few that have seen his art, and absolutely hate it. Though honestly, there are 2 other D&D artists who's art I can't stand to look at more than DiTerlizzi's: Crabapple and England. At least DiTerlizzi's has a somewhat aesthetically decent look to it (though the constant browns and funhouse mirror faces can make me want to punch my eyes), those other two's makes me want to stab my eyes out.
Though Planescape as a setting doesn't seem bad itself. One of the few published settings that I actually wouldn't mind (Eberron and Krynn being the others).
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Planescape was good, but oddly enough it's also a perfect illustration of a setting being changed due to metaplot advanced through the official line of modules. I'm no expert on the subject, but wasn't there some huge metaplot event in Planescape that happened as a result of one of the published modules that ended up changing the makeup of the factions of Sigil, like, a lot?
If I recall correctly, the same thing happened with Dark Sun, i.e. the setting where the point was to play games of Mad Max meets D&D in a post-apocalyptic magical desert. One of the published modules' conclusion was "Hey, actually everything is alright now, the desert turns into a verdant jungle and now there are wind-surfing druids everywhere!"
To reiterate: the nineties were WILD
The Faction War/Die, Vecna, Die metaplot was due to the conversion to 3rd Edition, but that's what you're remembering, yes.
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I am playing in the Realms now, and I agree that one great benefit of bounded accuracy is precisely that even a 20th level wizard is not an invulnerable death machine. Given sufficient mundane soldiers such a wizard would do best to turn tail and run.
I justify the lack of high level interference quite easily as a result. They don't want to die. A 12th level NPC could fairly quickly be taken down by a largish number of orcs, and they know it. Best to use "agents" to take some risks.
Yes, yes, yes
I use high level NPCs in their numbers as a sort of celebrities. They have their own plans to pursue mostly and don't get in the way too much. Ocassionally a bearded mage may tip his ponty hat to PCs, or hamster petting ranger trade a pile of orcish armours for smelly rashemi cheese, but that's it. They don't have to steal PC's spotlight at all.